Ultra Tuning: Master Thread -- Start Here!

[jawmendr]

Eloquent! Thank you. Much to think about with a lot of data to do it. As I read again, your remarks, I absolutely want to work hard to stay fit, until I don’t. I then do have a throttle. All making more sense as I think it through. I look forward now to vary some settings with a modicum of knowledge gained from your responses and wealth of thought out threads.

 

[jawmendr]

I have done some ride testing now, after reviewing your responses' and downloading the spreadsheet. First, I used the live data page and determined my 0-pressure voltage output to be767 and added one to 768. I also determined the max pressure to be 1313mv. I inserted those values into your spread sheet and saw the updating of the rest of the table. I then, using your 175% values, inserted those into the torque tab on my eggrider and went out for a ride starting on level ground and headed for the stee,,ep hills. Staying in the same mechanical gear, ( I have a one by twelve and used the middle gear) I tried all levels of the PAS page. (I used Frey's progression as you suggested) and experienced the new settings. I had smooth starts, progressive real-world feelings of increasing power as I increased the PAS settings. When I was on a steep, (14%) long (.25 mile) hill, at PAS level 9, I came to a realization that I was asking the wrong question in my previous post. As I was pedaling over time, I was beginning to tire, probably due to my fitness level. (lack thereof). The end was in sight, but I needed to use the throttle to help me toward the summit. The throttle did indeed, engage more power and so I reached the top without experiencing total exhaustion.
Here, I believe, is the right question; If the throttle delivered more power, why is it that I could not do that with pedaling. I am aware that if I was in better shape and had more stamina, I would not need the throttle. On the flip side, is there a setting that would allow me to engage full power without having to pedal harder to achieve it? This may be academic, (there is no shame in using throttle) but I would kinda like to know if there is a way to accomplish this? Through the delta settings and /or the Spd table?
I will ask this question differently. Would there be a setting that would require less force for the same (full) power. At PAS level 9, only?

 

[smorgasbord]

I also determined the max pressure to be 1313mv.

That's quite low, as the full 60kg of pressure should output over 3200mV.

If the throttle delivered more power, why is it that I could not do that with pedaling.

What were your SPDxx table settings?
What was your pedal crank cadence?
What was your bike speed?

Maybe try setting Full(kg) to some lower value, like 30, for the SPDxx columns corresponding to your bike speed up the hill.

 

[jawmendr]

MY BAD! The Max mv was 3313. Typo in previous post. Thanks for bearing with me. I will get back to you on your questions. I already understand why you are asking.

 

[jawmendr]

Went out again, today with the same settings. Here's some data while climbing the hill.
Speed = 14.7 Kph
Cadence= 62rpm
SPDxx table attached
In retrospect, I believe I had plenty of assistance going up the hill, also knowing that I had the throttle, if I needed it for a boost.
Comments, if any?
Thanks

 

[smorgasbord]

Speed = 14.7 Kph

That's SPD60 territory. Looks like your SPDxx table is setup for the Frey tune, which I don't think is an optimal tune. In particular, the Full(kg) starting high and linearly decreasing isn't based on any real world data or even, IMO, desired behavior. You need all the power you can muster to get full power on start-up from zero, and even when you start to get going you still need heavy pedal pressure. For me, I find needing less when getting going, then ramping up into the middle speeds, and then tapering off as you're going really fast is better.

At 14.7 kph, your SPD60 table has Full at 30kg, which is halfway to the max pedal pressure that can be registered, modulo your Delta Voltage table. A cadence of 62 is pretty reasonable. Not sure what you're looking for here.

 

[jawmendr]

That's SPD60 territory. Looks like your SPDxx table is setup for the Frey tune, which I don't think is an optimal tune. In particular, the Full(kg) starting high and linearly decreasing isn't based on any real world data or even, IMO, desired behavior. You need all the power you can muster to get full power on start-up from zero, and even when you start to get going you still need heavy pedal pressure. For me, I find, needing less when getting going, then ramping up into the middle speeds, and then tapering off as you're going really fast is better.

At 14.7 kph, your SPD60 table has Full at 30kg, which is halfway to the max pedal pressure that can be registered, modulo your Delta Voltage table. A cadence of 62 is pretty reasonable. Not sure what you're looking for here.

Yes, the spdXX table is Mike/Frey. I will adjust the table as you suggested. I had a nightmare incident while testing/climbing today. I was on the steepest part of the hill, level nine, pedaling at around 15kph. I was looking at my Eggrider app on my phone. Battery voltage displayed at 52.7 volts. I was drawing 30amps continuous for about 4 minutes when all of a sudden, I lost power. Display went off. My app showed 30 amps, the voltage was 15.7 volts. I could not restart the eggrider. I had to walk uphill for about 2.0 miles with a 60 lb bike. I could not even pedal, although, I had a 50 tooth, 12 speed cassette and in the lowest gear. When I finally arrived home, I measured the battery voltage. It read 51 volts on my multimeter. I still could not turn the display on until I hooked up the charger. Then everything was back to normal.
I suspect that my battery did not sustain the continuous 30 amp draw and the BMS shut it down. Do you agree? Is there something else I should be looking for. Thanks

 

[Gionnirocket]

I have done some ride testing now, after reviewing your responses' and downloading the spreadsheet. First, I used the live data page and determined my 0-pressure voltage output to be767 and added one to 768. I also determined the max pressure to be 1313mv. I inserted those values into your spread sheet and saw the updating of the rest of the table. I then, using your 175% values, inserted those into the torque tab on my eggrider and went out for a ride starting on level ground and headed for the stee,,ep hills. Staying in the same mechanical gear, ( I have a one by twelve and used the middle gear) I tried all levels of the PAS page. (I used Frey's progression as you suggested) and experienced the new settings. I had smooth starts, progressive real-world feelings of increasing power as I increased the PAS settings. When I was on a steep, (14%) long (.25 mile) hill, at PAS level 9, I came to a realization that I was asking the wrong question in my previous post. As I was pedaling over time, I was beginning to tire, probably due to my fitness level. (lack thereof). The end was in sight, but I needed to use the throttle to help me toward the summit. The throttle did indeed, engage more power and so I reached the top without experiencing total exhaustion.
Here, I believe, is the right question; If the throttle delivered more power, why is it that I could not do that with pedaling. I am aware that if I was in better shape and had more stamina, I would not need the throttle. On the flip side, is there a setting that would allow me to engage full power without having to pedal harder to achieve it? This may be academic, (there is no shame in using throttle) but I would kinda like to know if there is a way to accomplish this? Through the delta settings and /or the Spd table?
I will ask this question differently. Would there be a setting that would require less force for the same (full) power. At PAS level 9, only?

I'm taking a bit of a different approach. Coming from a BBS as well, I believe I may understand what you are looking for.
This is still a work in progress but I've found these settings delivering power like the BBS whilst still taking advantage of the more natural feel of the Ultra. I'm far from done fine tuning but I'm appreciating these more than the stock or the Frey tune.





Raising the MinCur(%) in the Torque/Spdxx table will probably be the greatest contributer to achieving BBS style power. Try 20 for all but the first and test in low PAS until you understand the change. Still timid compared to the stock BBS settings

A couple of notes..
My global max current is reduced to 25a as that's all I'll ever want for my needs.
I'm not using 100 for all the PAS LimitSpd% in the Basic tab for exercise reasons... But you can without changing much.

On your battery shutdown... Yes it was most likely the BMS overcurrent protection circuit. Honestly I haven't seen a hill that would cause me to draw 30a continuous in my lowest gear...
My ride is 77lbs and I've got chicken legs not to mention I live in the City of the Seven Hills and my house is in the middle of one of them

 

[jawmendr]

I'm taking a bit of a different approach. Coming from a BBS as well, I believe I may understand what you are looking for.
This is still a work in progress but I've found these settings delivering power like the BBS whilst still taking advantage of the more natural feel of the Ultra. I'm far from done fine tuning but I'm appreciating these more than the stock or the Frey tune.

View attachment 166400

View attachment 166399

Raising the MinCur(%) in the Torque/Spdxx table will probably be the greatest contributer to achieving BBS style power. Try 20 for all but the first and test in low PAS until you understand the change. Still timid compared to the stock BBS settings

A couple of notes..
My global max current is reduced to 25a as that's all I'll ever want for my needs.
I'm not using 100 for all the PAS LimitSpd% in the Basic tab for exercise reasons... But you can without changing much.

On your battery shutdown... Yes it was most likely the BMS overcurrent protection circuit. Honestly I haven't seen a hill that would cause me to draw 30a continuous in my lowest gear...
My ride is 77lbs and I've got chicken legs not to mention I live in the City of the Seven Hills and my house is in the middle of one of them

Interesting, re: your BBS approach. I look forward to how that develops. On another note, I may have opened a "pandora's box" in reference to my battery shut down. As you know, I have been doing alot of test rides with the newer settings. So, I rode again today to make sure that the battery would not shut down again. VERY INTERESTING FINDINGS! I was on my infamous hill again, riding in a middle gear at PAS level 7. I glanced at my app display on my phone and also confirmed what I saw on the eggrider display. They were the same!! The displays indicated that I was irregularly pulling 47 to 52 amps. I tried like hell to pedal with an even force, but the displays were going from 25 to 30, to 40+ amps. The battery did not shut down but I may not have given it enough time as I did not want to walk uphill again to get home. I emailed Tech. support at eggrider. They requested screenshots of all settings and a photo of the eggrider itself. I am awaiting their response. Are the excessive amps an artifact? Could I really be pulling those amps? Is my controller defective? Is this all connected to my inability to find my correct ltune settings? Your thoughts?

 

[smorgasbord]

Raising the MinCur(%) in the Torque/Spdxx table will probably be the greatest contributer to achieving BBS style power.

I would agree with that, but I also think your hyperbolic Delta Voltage table is also contributing to that early power feel.

To explain a bit about how it works (roughly speaking):
1) When you pedal, the torque sensor returns a Voltage in proportion to how much force you're putting on the pedals.
2) That Voltage is sent through the Delta Voltage table, and a Force, in kg, is returned.
3) That Force is sent through the appropriate column (based on your bike's speed) of the SPDxx table.
4) There's some sort of interpolation (maybe linear, maybe not) between Start(kg) and Full(kg) that returns a Current interpolated between MinCur(%) and MaxCur(%).
5) That current percentage is then multipled by the Limit Current(%) of the PAS level you're in.
6) The resulting percentage is multiplied by the Max Current of your controller, as set in the Basic Tab, and that's what used to drive the motor.

So, lower values for 0-5kg and 5-10kg, etc. mean that those Force values are returned with less actual force being applied to the pedals. For myself, this is the opposite of smooth, it's more of a "power early and often" scenario, which is, as you say, what you're looking for.

BTW, is the Limit Speed of PAS level 1 being higher than at PAS levels 2 and 3 intentional?

 

[Gionnirocket]

Yeah can't find his sweet spot .

Maybe he needs to put some hair on it?

 

[Gionnirocket]

I would agree with that, but I also think your hyperbolic Delta Voltage table is also contributing to that early power feel.

To explain a bit about how it works (roughly speaking):
1) When you pedal, the torque sensor returns a Voltage in proportion to how much force you're putting on the pedals.
2) That Voltage is sent through the Delta Voltage table, and a Force, in kg, is returned.
3) That Force is sent through the appropriate column (based on your bike's speed) of the SPDxx table.
4) There's some sort of interpolation (maybe linear, maybe not) between Start(kg) and Full(kg) that returns a Current interpolated between MinCur(%) and MaxCur(%).
5) That current percentage is then multipled by the Limit Current(%) of the PAS level you're in.
6) The resulting percentage is multiplied by the Max Current of your controller, as set in the Basic Tab, and that's what used to drive the motor.

So, lower values for 0-5kg and 5-10kg, etc. mean that those Force values are returned with less actual force being applied to the pedals. For myself, this is the opposite of smooth, it's more of a "power early and often" scenario, which is, as you say, what you're looking for.

BTW, is the Limit Speed of PAS level 1 being higher than at PAS levels 2 and 3 intentional?

Yes to a certain extent and why I've tweaked in that direction but I also felt the power output wasn't proportional to my input across the range. Then there's a bit of exhilaration factored in as well.
I ride a lot of hills and with a bad knee can tire quickly or be bored to hell riding low gears @5mph

PAS 1 is specifically set for use in low gears and riding slow over very rough terrain with slightly more need for continued assistance where 2 - 3 slowly fade earlier as I approach spin out cadence. Great for racing downhill with pedal resistance and only having motor output as needed or on a flat when I'm feeling froggy and want the motor to hand off to me before spinning out and not having to change gears.

 

[jawmendr]

Once again, anybody out there? My eggrider display is showing amps in excess of 40 and sometimes 50 when riding. Do I have a bad egg rider? Is there a short in my controller or something else? Any help will be appreciated

 

[Gionnirocket]

Sounds like a loose nut behind the handlebars

I assume the eggrider was an upgrade... If so put the origin display on to compare.
Then I'll ask what are the conditions?
Steep hill?
High gears?
Throttle or ghost pedaling?
Motor or battery hot?

 

[jawmendr]

Yeah can't find his sweet spot .

Sounds like a loose nut behind the handlebars

I assume the eggrider was an upgrade... If so put the origin display on to compare.
Then I'll ask what are the conditions?
Steep hill?
High gears?
Throttle or ghost pedaling?
Motor or battery hot?

Thanks, I will switch displays and get back to you on that. Yes, a steep hill definitely not a high gear motor and battery do not feel hot. However when I apply the throttle, the amps can go up to 60 or 70. Weird? This, nut behind the handlebars needs some answers.

 

[jawmendr]

Thanks, I will switch displays and get back to you on that. Yes, a steep hill definitely not a high gear motor and battery do not feel hot. However when I apply the throttle, the amps can go up to 60 or 70. Weird? This, nut behind the handlebars needs some answers.

Displays were switched. The original works just fine. I am working with EggRider. (Complaining, that is)

 

[mcfizzlestag]

It's probably your KeepCur(%) values, which have to be at least as high as MinCur(%). Try setting each column's KeepCur(%) to that column's MinCur(%) and try again.

this was indeed the problem for me, i just raised the value for mincur in spd0 and spd20 until it worked since i didn't see this. Now i ammended the settings to adjust the keep current % for these two columns and its all good!

 

[Gionnirocket]

@jawmendr
I've done a little bit more tweaking.
For me these are more in line with what I want from the Ultra. Still very smooth and not overly aggressive but upper PAS allow hill climbing without over stressing my knees. These feel more natural (to me) and the power output is more in tune with my input. Power curve as I increase speed is more straight line with no sudden bursts or sags.
Still not my fine tune but I just don't have much time nor cranial bandwidth to devote to this these days.

I do disagree on the implementation of some settings the OP uses as a personal preference.
Basic/Limit Current
A 40% increase up the PAS scale gives too small an increase in lower PAS and too great in higher PAS. I much prefer a more equal and gradual increase as I increase PAS. I often only need an additional 50-100w as I tire and it's nice to add just that. And you can quickly and easily multitap up when more power is needed quickly.
Torque/Delta Voltage
Though I can create 3200mv in testing with brakes locked.. that is very difficult to do when riding and the pedals are moving forward. I find about 2800mv more in line with what I can actually produce as well as the limit of how much stress I want to put on my knees anyway.. Hence my settings.

The BBSHD, like all cadence-sensing controllers, gives you more power the faster you crank, not the harder you crank.

Couldn't be more wrong.

This said... Anyone have a handle on Torque/ Return(Kg), Keep Cur, CurDecy?
These I feel is where the fine tuning lie but I can't nail them down.

 

[jawmendr]

@jawmendr
I've done a little bit more tweaking.
For me these are more in line with what I want from the Ultra. Still very smooth and not overly aggressive but upper PAS allow hill climbing without over stressing my knees. These feel more natural (to me) and the power output is more in tune with my input. Power curve as I increase speed is more straight line with no sudden bursts or sags.
Still not my fine tune but I just don't have much time nor cranial bandwidth to devote to this these days.
View attachment 168806View attachment 168807

I do disagree on the implementation of some settings the OP uses as a personal preference.
Basic/Limit Current
A 40% increase up the PAS scale gives too small an increase in lower PAS and too great in higher PAS. I much prefer a more equal and gradual increase as I increase PAS. I often only need an additional 50-100w as I tire and it's nice to add just that. And you can quickly and easily multitap up when more power is needed quickly.
Torque/Delta Voltage
Though I can create 3200mv in testing with brakes locked.. that is very difficult to do when riding and the pedals are moving forward. I find about 2800mv more in line with what I can actually produce as well as the limit of how much stress I want to put on my knees anyway.. Hence my settings.


Couldn't be more wrong.

This said... Anyone have a handle on Torque/ Return(Kg), Keep Cur, CurDecy?
These I feel is where the fine tuning lie but I can't nail them down.

Thank you for jumping in again. It has been awhile. I will try out your settings

 

[Gionnirocket]

Thank you for jumping in again. It has been awhile. I will try out your settings

You'll still need to personalize them but understanding/following the theme may help you.