Turbo Creo 2 Comp E5 (aluminum) is out, is a Vado SL 2 next?

[mschwett]

I know this thread is about Specialized Creo, but since I'd posted quite a few times on it and gotten some excellent advice and input, I did want to follow up. I took delivery of my new Zinn Tui ebike last week and took her out for the first ride on Friday. What a wonderful bike! It's going to take a little getting used to, as I've been riding a Kona Dew-e DL with flat handlebars and a more upright position and haven't ridden a drop-bar bike for a couple of years (except on the trainer). But hopefully this old body can adjust, and if not, I can go to a stem with a bit more rise. I was super concerned about standover with the Creo, which is why I ended up going this route...great standover on this bike for me!
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sweet!! looks like a fun ride. do you know how much it weighs?

the bars appear to be tilted wayyyy down, which is usually a sign that there’s too much rise, not enough reach, or simliar. did a bike fitter set it up that way for you? or maybe it’s the photo?

 

[EmilyRides]

sweet!! looks like a fun ride. do you know how much it weighs?

the bars appear to be tilted wayyyy down, which is usually a sign that there’s too much rise, not enough reach, or simliar. did a bike fitter set it up that way for you? or maybe it’s the photo?

The bike was shipped to me so required some assembly. My husband and I put it together, and yes, we have rotated the bars back some since taking that photo. I realized they were wrong after my first ride. The bike weighed 36 lbs before I added pedals, seat bag, and water bottle cage.

 

[Saratoga Dave]

Looks great, glad to see you got what you wanted.

How many teeth is that chainring?

 

[EmilyRides]

Looks great, glad to see you got what you wanted.

How many teeth is that chainring?

Hi @Saratoga Dave , It's 50 teeth. Nice because I no longer run out of gears while descending. On my Kona, which had either 38 or 42 teeth (can't recall), I would routinely run out of gears on the downhills. And since this is a Class 3 bike vs. the Kona at Class 1, I can go even faster downhill. A real blast to ride!

 

[jabberwocky]

Lovely bike, glad you got something you're happy with.

 

[Allan47.7339]

It's amazing that Zinn can make bikes that fit the very tallest and also fairly short people. I was on a ride with a guy who's Zinn bike top bar was as high as my hip and I'm 6' feet. The bike had S&S couplers for travel and the stem was so long it had to have one too. When the owner was riding it all looked perfectly scaled and normal.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I did delete my post to avoid making someone feel bad.

Just for the record, this is how Creo 2 looks like.

 

[jabberwocky]

I know Emilyrides got herself sorted on a sweet custom, but just as a followup for anyone else looking for a really small drop bar ebike, it looks like Liv is doing a version of Giants new hub motor lightweight drop bar bikes and the XS is pretty damn small:

Avail Advanced E+ Elite AR (2025) | Women Endurance bike | Liv Cycling US

www.liv-cycling.com

XS is a 51.5cm eff TT with a 67.7cm/26.7in standover. Not available yet and I know nothing about their hub motor system, but hey, an option!

 

[EmilyRides]

I know Emilyrides got herself sorted on a sweet custom, but just as a followup for anyone else looking for a really small drop bar ebike, it looks like Liv is doing a version of Giants new hub motor lightweight drop bar bikes and the XS is pretty damn small:

Avail Advanced E+ Elite AR (2025) | Women Endurance bike | Liv Cycling US

www.liv-cycling.com

XS is a 51.5cm eff TT with a 67.7cm/26.7in standover. Not available yet and I know nothing about their hub motor system, but hey, an option!

That one would definitely have worked for me. The problem I was having is that none of the XS that would fit me were Class 3. This one is. And I could have saved a few nickels as well. I love my Zinn, but if this Liv had been available a bit sooner, I would probably have jumped on it. I say probably because I'm not sold on a rear hub motor. Wonder why they didn't go with a mid-drive?

 

[mschwett]

That one would definitely have worked for me. The problem I was having is that none of the XS that would fit me were Class 3. This one is. And I could have saved a few nickels as well. I love my Zinn, but if this Liv had been available a bit sooner, I would probably have jumped on it. I say probably because I'm not sold on a rear hub motor. Wonder why they didn't go with a mid-drive?

hub drive gets you closer to the look, feel, and drivetrain of non-electric modern road bike. narrower q factor, standard cranks and bottom brackets, 2x options, no motor stres on the drivetrain, often lighter weight by 3lb or so. road bikes don’t usually go up 20% grades so the hill climbing ability of a mid drive isn’t as relevant, and most people who want a drop bar road bike are fairly able to contribute quite a bit of power.

there are definitely pros and cons!

 

[mschwett]

I know Emilyrides got herself sorted on a sweet custom, but just as a followup for anyone else looking for a really small drop bar ebike, it looks like Liv is doing a version of Giants new hub motor lightweight drop bar bikes and the XS is pretty damn small:

Avail Advanced E+ Elite AR (2025) | Women Endurance bike | Liv Cycling US

www.liv-cycling.com

XS is a 51.5cm eff TT with a 67.7cm/26.7in standover. Not available yet and I know nothing about their hub motor system, but hey, an option!

that bike looks sweet!!

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I know Emilyrides got herself sorted on a sweet custom, but just as a followup for anyone else looking for a really small drop bar ebike, it looks like Liv is doing a version of Giants new hub motor lightweight drop bar bikes and the XS is pretty damn small:

Avail Advanced E+ Elite AR (2025) | Women Endurance bike | Liv Cycling US

www.liv-cycling.com

Looking over the product page, this caught my eye:

New one on me. In what sense is a 30 Nm hub-drive "comparable" to a 75 Nm mid-drive?

Farther down, no mention of the 30 Nm at all. Surprised a major brand like Giant would engage in this sort of deception.

 

[mschwett]

…
New one on me. In what sense is a 30 Nm hub-drive "comparable" to a 75 Nm mid-drive?

mahle and other reputable lightweight high drive manufacturers use this “equivalency” in their marketing. the logic is that typically a mid drive is actually geared up quite a bit, say a 42 tooth chain ring and the middle cog of the cassette, which might be 18 or 20 teeth. so the torque at the rear wheel is actually reduced by a factor of 2 or 2.5. in the tallest gear, if you’re pedaling at a normal cadence and going fast, it might be more than 4 to 1. my rear hub drive road bike has a 52t big chainring and an 11t small cog, so a mid-drive with 50NM would in fact only have 10.5NM at the rear wheel in that scenario. i’ve never done the math but it’s possible an SL ebike couldn’t even accelerate from 26 to 27 mph in the top gear. the hub drive, on the other hand, is still at 1:1…
but it is going 200+ RPM at those speeds so the torque advantage may or may not still exist depending on the characteristics of the motor.

it’s really pretty misleading, IMO, because the time you’d really need the torque is going up a hill, when the gearing is much closer to 1:1. the liv bike in question is 46:44 in the climbing gear, at which point a 70NM mid drive would have 67NM, but the hub drive would still have only the “actual” 30NM or whatever it is….

 

[BlackHand]

About 12.5kg for the Avail and 12kg for the top spec Defy version. I wonder who the drive is from? They use Panasonic on their Momentum brand bikes, but this says it's a different partner.

Giant Defy Advanced E+ Elite: e-road bike with new rear hub motor

Giant presents new e-road bike Defy Advanced E+ Elite. 🚲 Extremely light and with a new hub motor. All the details about the carbon speedster in our blog. 👉

www.ebike24.com

 

[mschwett]

About 12.5kg for the Avail and 12kg for the top spec Defy version. I wonder who the drive is from? They use Panasonic on their Momentum brand bikes, but this says it's a different partner.

Giant Defy Advanced E+ Elite: e-road bike with new rear hub motor

Giant presents new e-road bike Defy Advanced E+ Elite. 🚲 Extremely light and with a new hub motor. All the details about the carbon speedster in our blog. 👉

www.ebike24.com

they’ve used both yamaha and shimano for other syncDrive bikes, sources say. mostly yamaha.

it’s a bigger battery in the avail but it ought to be lighter. the addict rc eride is 10.5kg in a normal size….

 

[jabberwocky]

Wonder why they didn't go with a mid-drive?

My wild-ass guess is they decided that they wanted their new drop bar ebikes to be in the ever popular low-power-light-weight genre. But their motor partners (mostly Yamaha with a dash of Shimano) didn't have anything in that market, so they switched to a lightweight hub motor system. Maybe its a rebadged Mahle motor? A few companies are using those on drop bar ebikes now (Cannondale has a few, Salsa has one, I think some of the euro brands have them as well).

I have no experience with hub motor systems so I'll let others speak to the advantages and disadvantages. I personally wouldn't pay $6500 for a hub motor ebike, but I also wouldn't buy a low power ebike either so I'm obviously not the target market. I'm guessing reliability was a consideration; it does seem most of the low power mid drive systems don't have the best reliability and hub motors are simpler and (from what I've been told) more robust.

A 400whr battery is generous for the low power category at least. Creos are 320whr. Treks low power mid drive is 360whr. Cannondales Mahle hub bike is 250whr, same with Salsas.

New one on me. In what sense is a 30 Nm hub-drive "comparable" to a 75 Nm mid-drive?

Farther down, no mention of the 30 Nm at all. Surprised a major brand like Giant would engage in this sort of deception.

I think its safe to assume thats pure marketing bulls**t. Marketing departments gonna marketing department, I guess.

they’ve used both yamaha and shimano for other syncDrive bikes, sources say. mostly yamaha.

it’s a bigger battery in the avail but it ought to be lighter. the addict rc eride is 10.5kg in a normal size….

Giant is almost entirely Yamaha. I think some Canadian spec bikes use (or used) Shimanos EP8 for a model year or two in the pandemic years.

As for weight, I'm guessing thats pretty much entirely the larger battery. Its a pretty solid spec with a carbon frame and fork.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

My wild-ass guess is they decided that they wanted their new drop bar ebikes to be in the ever popular low-power-light-weight genre. But their motor partners (mostly Yamaha with a dash of Shimano) didn't have anything in that market, so they switched to a lightweight hub motor system. Maybe its a rebadged Mahle motor? A few companies are using those on drop bar ebikes now (Cannondale has a few, Salsa has one, I think some of the euro brands have them as well).

I have no experience with hub motor systems so I'll let others speak to the advantages and disadvantages. I personally wouldn't pay $6500 for a hub motor ebike, but I also wouldn't buy a low power ebike either so I'm obviously not the target market. I'm guessing reliability was a consideration; it does seem most of the low power mid drive systems don't have the best reliability and hub motors are simpler and (from what I've been told) more robust.

A 400whr battery is generous for the low power category at least. Creos are 320whr. Treks low power mid drive is 360whr. Cannondales Mahle hub bike is 250whr, same with Salsas.



I think its safe to assume thats pure marketing bulls**t. Marketing departments gonna marketing department, I guess.



Giant is almost entirely Yamaha. I think some Canadian spec bikes use (or used) Shimanos EP8 for a model year or two in the pandemic years.

As for weight, I'm guessing thats pretty much entirely the larger battery. Its a pretty solid spec with a carbon frame and fork.

Was just looking up the Giant e gravel bike and to my surprise It's powered by the Shimano EP6:

Giant Revolt E+ 1 £4,499 Shimano EP6 Battery 500wh weight 40lbs

That surprised me as I thought they were all Yamaha PW Series. Maybe it's only in the UK. To further confuse it Giant still calls it a SyncDrive motor.

 

[mschwett]

Was just looking up the Giant e gravel bike and to my surprise It's powered by the Shimano EP6:

Giant Revolt E+ 1 £4,499 Shimano EP6 Battery 500wh weight 40lbs

That surprised me as I thought they were all Yamaha PW Series. Maybe it's only in the UK. To further confuse it Giant still calls it a SyncDrive motor.

i don’t think it’s only on the UK. i’ve seen reference in quite a few places to them using shimano motors on a few more recent bikes. i guess it’s like specialized and brose/mahle, they have some leverage and use whichever supplier or manufacturer is the better fit or better deal.

i don’t think giant has done as much customization or co-engineering though, they’re pretty much all off the shelf motors?

 

[Rás Cnoic]

i don’t think it’s only on the UK. i’ve seen reference in quite a few places to them using shimano motors on a few more recent bikes. i guess it’s like specialized and brose/mahle, they have some leverage and use whichever supplier or manufacturer is the better fit or better deal.

i don’t think giant has done as much customization or co-engineering though, they’re pretty much all off the shelf motors?

That's what surprised me about them still using the Syncdrive name I thought (assumed) this was a special custom version of the Yamaha motors. If it's just a Giant branding exercise like a cover to slap on any motor brand, why bother?

 

[Saratoga Dave]

I may be wrong here - it happens - but I believe any Revolt e+ bikes are a couple of years old. They have not been available in the US for maybe two years, and searching their website yields nothing. My LBS, Giant dealer, agrees.

With that said though, in I believe in or around 2022 it seemed like they really didn’t know what they were doing. The Revolt e+ web page itself referred to BOTH the Shimano and the Yamaha motors as the power source in different sections of the page. It seemed like they intended to switch, but ended up walking away from the whole thing. Either way, it was referred to as Syncdrive.

I did see and test an actual Revolt e+ in the shop in Lake Placid on one of our frequent visits up there, and liked it quite a lot as the replacement for the excellent Toughroad ebike. Almost bought one, but ended up going a different direction to the Creo.