Not a spectacular ride but I want to do more of the Palouse to Cascades (John Wayne) trail in WA. East of the Columbia River goatheads are reported to be a problem. I have Schwalbe G-one tires with tubes and Mr Tuffy liners. Wheels are tubeless ready and I picked up some Orange Seal, went to bike shop with Stans in mind but mechanic recommended Orange Seal so I went with his suggestion. Not sure if I should do tubeless or keep the liners and add sealant to the tubes. I haven't had a flat with the liners but I haven't ridden in goathead territory either. Anyone with goathead experience?
Tubeless or Mr Tuffy and sealant in tube for goatheads?
- Thread starter EMGX
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Nvreloader
Western Nevada
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- USA
I have 2 state experience (NV & CA) with those (*&%%#@)(&T%(( goat heads. I now run Flat Out Sportsman series in my tubed fat tire bikes and my Montague non e bike.
So far this combo has worked very well off and on roads conditions.
Had problems with the T liners staying in place, removed them and went with Flat out.
ymmv
So far this combo has worked very well off and on roads conditions.
Had problems with the T liners staying in place, removed them and went with Flat out.
ymmv
m@Robertson
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- USA
If only goatheads are the problem, I would do tubeless. I would definitely NOT do Stans or Orange Seal as both are inferior to Flatout as a tubeless sealant.
I went thru a construction site once when I was living in Fresno and came out the other side with no less than 100 goatheads. I counted them as I took the things out. Fortunately on that bike I had a serious tire and a thornproof tube so no flat. Also on my commute across a big park, I had goathead infested segments.
I used Tuffy for decades and its inferior to Flatout when tubes are in play. If sticking with tubes, I would do thornproof tubes and Flatout. Maybe leave the Tuffy in just for the sake of overkill but don't rely on it. The Tuffy of today is nothing like what it was when it first came onto the market.
I went thru a construction site once when I was living in Fresno and came out the other side with no less than 100 goatheads. I counted them as I took the things out. Fortunately on that bike I had a serious tire and a thornproof tube so no flat. Also on my commute across a big park, I had goathead infested segments.
I used Tuffy for decades and its inferior to Flatout when tubes are in play. If sticking with tubes, I would do thornproof tubes and Flatout. Maybe leave the Tuffy in just for the sake of overkill but don't rely on it. The Tuffy of today is nothing like what it was when it first came onto the market.
Nvreloader
Western Nevada
- Region
- USA
Matt
Question for you,
What are you calling thorn proof tubes?
I am running these tubes on my e bikes:
These were the best HD tubes I could find at the time.
So far, very good results, with Flat Out + these tubes.
Tia
Question for you,
What are you calling thorn proof tubes?
I am running these tubes on my e bikes:
These were the best HD tubes I could find at the time.
So far, very good results, with Flat Out + these tubes.
Tia
My brother and I rode several hunderd rail-trail miles in WA and ID in June. Among them Pal-Cas trail. I used Scwalbe SuperMotoX with Mr Tuffys. Brother had one flat with Kenda OEM tire. I believe in Mr Tuffy AND good SuperMotoX tires. I just picked up a one inch nail yesterday and Mr Tuffy deflected the nail sideways in the tire. Got home and pulled the nail out and will continue riding without any repairs.
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Thanks for all the input/ideas. It'll be 2-3 weeks before I can do the rides. Depending on weather I'm planning to base at Wanapum state park and do a day ride east as far as reasonable and back, then a day ride west to Kittitas and back. Lastly drive to Rattlesnake Lake and ride east to Snoqualmie tunnel and back. So far I've only done a day ride west from Easton state park to a little past Snoqualmie tunnel and back, was having a lot of knee pain at the time which has subsided. Not sure if I'll take my BH gravel bike which is tubeless ready or a converted mountain bike which has Schwalbe Billy Bonkers tires (not tubeless compatible). In the meantime I'll try tubeless with my BH bike and Flatout for the tubes in the converted bike.
M@Robertson, I see there are a few variations of Flatout, which do you use and how much in the tube (26x2.4 tires on the converted bike)?
Edit: I see in a post in a different thread that you use the Sportsman version.
M@Robertson, I see there are a few variations of Flatout, which do you use and how much in the tube (26x2.4 tires on the converted bike)?
Edit: I see in a post in a different thread that you use the Sportsman version.
m@Robertson
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Well of course nothing in this world is truly thornproof... -resistant but not -proof.
The answer to this question is a moving target. It depends on what day it is, almost, and what wheel we are talking about. Remember also I use Presta valves on almost everything which changes things up quite a bit in terms of choices out there.
Sunlite makes thorn-resistant tubes that are pretty thick. So does Duro. But the Sunlites on occasion get ding'd for the valve being not so well affixed. This is because, I think, people are using them undersized which is the opposite of what I do. An undersized tube on a powered wheel will slip and the valve might tear clean off. Oversize the tube instead and not only will the tube fix firmly in place on the rim, it will be stronger because it is not stretched thin like a balloon.
As a general rule I am trying to use Schwalbe Air Plus tubes these days. These tubes are about halfway between a thornproof and a regular tube in terms of thickness. And you get a quality tube.
For fat bike tubes, I stick with Vee 26x5.05" tubes. They have two versions. One is lightweight and thats NOT the one I use. The standard weight tubes are about 1.5mm thick. I also make sure I buy presta tubes with removable valve cores so I can more easily inject Flatout so that makes my tube choice list smaller. Back in the day I used Kenda fat tubes, which were pretty thick, and used an injector thru the tube rubber to get the sealant in.
I have seen the Bakcou tubes, and they are relatively new on the market as fat thick tubes used to be considered too heavy. However the Bakcou's are not in a truly fat size and the last thing you want to do is use a 4.0 tube on a tire larger than 4.0. A 4.0 tube would be fine on a 3.0 to 3.5 tire though. The BackCou 20x4.0 tube is off my list because of its valve not screwing down, so on a powered wheel the stem will slip/walk. I use the Schwalbe Air Plus 'American Valve' that is a schraeder valve with threads and a nut that goes all the way down.
If I didn't know what I was buying in advance, I would spend time looking for a tube with the thickest rubber I could find, with a valve that fully screws down onto the rim that is also long enough to get thru my double-wall rims. What I end up with is going to vary depending on whats on the market.
m@Robertson
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Yes although the Flatout people have told me the Light Equipment version that is stocked at Home Depot is just as good on a bike. For a 26x4.x tire I would use a half-bottle of the stuff. Sounds like a lot but that is the manufacturer rec. 16 oz in a fat tire means you can have a flat, lose some and there's still plenty left over for the next puncture, the one after that etc.
About a year ago I finally wore a set of tires down that had Flatout put into them when they were new. I got the tire off and replaced it, and the stuff inside was not what you would call liquid. Was more like Steve McQueen's The Blob consistency. But I was still flat free, after having suffered a few punctures that it fixed for me, and the stuff was at least three years old..
So I ordered some of the quick strike formula because local Home Depot didn't stock it. My plan for the Billy Bonkers 26x2.1 (not 2.4) which might change, is to try to test one wheel tubeless with flatout and see if the tire holds air. Those tires are fit very tight on the rims and are very difficult to break the beads so I'm not concerned about tubular vs tubeless beads. If that doesn't work well I'll put flatout in the tubes. I'd rather be able to use bacon strips to fix a flat that tubeless flatout can't seal than have to change a tube plus avoid the weight of tubes plus sealant. I have done this some with a scooter - used RideOn sealant tubeless in a tubular tire, no air loss over weeks and the bead profile and tightness on the rim for the tube type tire to me was indistinguishable from same brand tubeless tire.
m@Robertson
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The original Quick Strike was branded and packaged differently as an entirely separate product... and it got bad reviews. I have no idea if its the same stuff that sucked when it was released or whether they reformulated it when they rep-packaged it with Flatout branding.
It will work great. I have been using it as a tubeless sealant for years and it not only holds air, it holds it far better than anything like Stans or Orange Seal. Tires maintain pressure for months.
I carry bacon strips with my flatout tubeless setups. One time I got a string of six (!) roofing nails still in their roofing-gun tape assembly. Was my Big Fat Dummy and Flatout got me home. I needed to refill the tire like three times after riding a block or so in between, but the tire sealed, and more importantly survived for another 3 or so years until it wore completely out. Unlike Slime, Flatout seals to a little hard nub, so its a permanent repair.
The neat thing about Flatout Sportsman formula is it seals holes up to 1/2", which is double the size of the Other Leading Brand. So you never need the bacon strips. You just use an electric pump to refill and Flatout goops up the hole all by itself, then seals it forever.
Pics from 2020: Tubeless Snowshoe XL's with Flatout. And late 2023. Fresh change to Snowshoe 2XLs that day. You can still see the leftover slop around the bead. I put the Flatout in before I seated one bead because I used a full bottle on such gigantic tires and feeding 16 oz thru a presta valve was more work than I wanted to go to.
Annnnd early this year. 26x2.50 tubeless/Flatout running 30-50 psi depending on where I am riding.
m@Robertson
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Looks like they are in the process of changing Flatout marketing. The Amazon Flatout store shows all the old formulae as 'unavailable', Flatout now has the Quick Strike Small Tire (bicycle) formula rated only for 1/4" holes. Thats probably the sucky stuff that used to be separately branded. Then there are the Quick Strike Off-Road and QS On-Road formulae. Both are rated for 1/2" holes, and the QS Off Road formula is listed as the one to use for ebikes. The QS On-Road formula is marketed for cars and trailers.
Nvreloader
Western Nevada
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- USA
I use a 60cc syringe and a short piece of clear tubing (after removing the valve core) that just threads on the O/S of the Schrader valve, takes 8 syringe refills.
Then I am done, on the last syringe full, I double fill the syringe with air to blow the valve stem clear, install the valve core and wipe up a very little mess.
I just bought another jug of the old sportsman formula, for a back up.
ymmv
Then I am done, on the last syringe full, I double fill the syringe with air to blow the valve stem clear, install the valve core and wipe up a very little mess.
I just bought another jug of the old sportsman formula, for a back up.
ymmv
I did order the off road version of quick strike so hopefully that will be OK. I'll try tubeless it on my 26" bike with Billy Bonkers, hopefully better experience than with Orange Seal and the tubeless ready G-one tires.
Update on the Scwhalbe G-one allround RG. Tried tubeless with one of them and the air and sealant blew out of countless pinholes on the sidewalls. Schwalbe web site lists them as tubeless so I sent them a message asking what's up. They had already replaced one of my tires under warranty because the tread was cracked down to the casing all around (maybe that's why they call them "allround" because they leak and crack allround.
Update on the Scwhalbe G-one allround RG. Tried tubeless with one of them and the air and sealant blew out of countless pinholes on the sidewalls. Schwalbe web site lists them as tubeless so I sent them a message asking what's up. They had already replaced one of my tires under warranty because the tread was cracked down to the casing all around (maybe that's why they call them "allround" because they leak and crack allround.
linklemming
Well-Known Member
So many opinions and experiences here so I will add mine.
99% of the reasons I get flats is because of goatheads.
I started using stans in tubes around 2007 and have only had two flats since (stans had dried just added more stans). Im guessing I have 10+ goatheads on each of my bikes at the moment.
A nice side benefit of running stans in tubes is you dont loose pressure overtime like tubeless. I can go 3+weeks before my tires/tubes loose about 5 psi (with tubeless I usually checked every ride).
Also much cleaner than running tubeless.
My regime is put new tubes with fresh stans every year and refresh stans after 6 months.
Sure you can run lower pressure tubeless and I have but in reality I was already running low pressures with tubes and to go any lower tubeless made the tires too squirmy
You can also experience burping with low pressures and tubeless (look up burping on youtube). That happened to me awhile back resulting in a bad crash resulting in having to walk back to the trailhead.
Gotta love how easy it is to fix a flat with tubeless but I have never had that problem. Just adding more stans is just as easy
99% of the reasons I get flats is because of goatheads.
I started using stans in tubes around 2007 and have only had two flats since (stans had dried just added more stans). Im guessing I have 10+ goatheads on each of my bikes at the moment.
A nice side benefit of running stans in tubes is you dont loose pressure overtime like tubeless. I can go 3+weeks before my tires/tubes loose about 5 psi (with tubeless I usually checked every ride).
Also much cleaner than running tubeless.
My regime is put new tubes with fresh stans every year and refresh stans after 6 months.
Sure you can run lower pressure tubeless and I have but in reality I was already running low pressures with tubes and to go any lower tubeless made the tires too squirmy
You can also experience burping with low pressures and tubeless (look up burping on youtube). That happened to me awhile back resulting in a bad crash resulting in having to walk back to the trailhead.
Gotta love how easy it is to fix a flat with tubeless but I have never had that problem. Just adding more stans is just as easy
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I might end up going that way but with Orange seal in the G-one tubes and Flatout in the Billy Bonker tubes, because that is what I have/will have. I'm curious what response I get from Schwalbe, they replaced a defective G-one for me a couple years ago but that was within the 2 year warranty (I think that was the warranty duration). The Orange Seal literally bubbled and spurted out of hundreds of tiny holes in the sidewalls. I was sort of stunned watching it leak literally like a sieve.
linklemming
Well-Known Member
Yes, I have had that happen with tubeless setups as well (weeping thru the sidewalls) on several tires (some tubeless ready, some not). Not too cool if you store the bikes inside during the winter.
Best tubeless setup I ever had was on a 2019 santa cruz tallboy which came with sealant installed. That setup barely leaked for the 6 months I used it before the first severe cold spell (20F in garage, -0F outside). From that point on the tires (Maxxis DHF F/Maxxis Rekon R tubeless ready) weeped like crazy and weeped all over the garage floor. Adding more stans worked for a month or so. I finally dismounted the tires and spent over an hour a tire cleaning up all the sealant stuck to the inside of the tire before giving up and just ordering new tires (orig tires only had 500 miles). Tubes(with stans) are definately cheaper and easier for me.
mrgold35
Well-Known Member
I've been using tubes, Mr. Tuffy liners, with two bottles of Stans in each tire for my two 4" fat tire Radrovers since 2016 (8000 miles between the two 16 Radrovers). A ton of goatheads and usually have to pick out 2-15 per tire depending on the riding area (dirt trail, paved bike path, share the road, sidewalk). Learned to wait to get home before removing goathead because that one large sticker could be plugging that hole. Pull out the sticker(s), listen for escaping air, and rotate tire downward to let Stans do its job. Adding Stans reduced my goathead flats from weekly down to 1-3 times a year. I know Stans is working with all the wet spots on the tires after a ride. I sometimes need to add a bottle every few months because it is working so much. I have a spare tube+tools+USB air compressor in my rack bag if I get a non-repairable flat too large for Stans.
Even with Mr. Tuffy liners, I still get large goatheads into the tube. I have to remove my tires and liners a few times a year and check for broken goathead stickers stuck on the inside of the tires and in the liners with my hand. A blade from a box cutter works best for me catching the edge and removing those broken goathead spikes from the large end.
Recently added a Himiway Cobra Pro with 4.8" fat tires with Tannus liners+tubes+Stans almost a year ago. Zero flats (so far) in the exact same riding routes. I purchased Tannus liners for my two old Radrovers; but, haven't installed yet. I will do the same with Tannus, tube, and Stans when I do maintenance on the Radrover.
Even with Mr. Tuffy liners, I still get large goatheads into the tube. I have to remove my tires and liners a few times a year and check for broken goathead stickers stuck on the inside of the tires and in the liners with my hand. A blade from a box cutter works best for me catching the edge and removing those broken goathead spikes from the large end.
Recently added a Himiway Cobra Pro with 4.8" fat tires with Tannus liners+tubes+Stans almost a year ago. Zero flats (so far) in the exact same riding routes. I purchased Tannus liners for my two old Radrovers; but, haven't installed yet. I will do the same with Tannus, tube, and Stans when I do maintenance on the Radrover.
Unless Schwalbe comes through (for which I'm not holding my breath) with a replacement G-one that has sidewalls which can actually hold air and sealant I'm going to replace them with Continental Doublefighters that I currently have on another unused bike along with my Mr Tuffy liners and Orange Seal in the tubes. I have other things to do today but if the Flatout is delivered early enough I'll try to set it up tubeless with the Billy Bonkers. No problems if it doesn't work in which case I'll use it in tubes. It's encouraging that several of you have had good results with sealant in tubes. I never had much luck with Slime tubes including the thick thorn resistant ones and will never use that brand again.
Schwalbe customer service did get back to me and cleared up the situation. The older G-One wasn't tubeless compatible but the warranty replacement from a couple years ago is and marked TLE. Just got around to mounting the TLE tire and it went pretty well although I don't see how it could be done without an air compressor. If it continues to hold air I'll buy another tubeless compatible tire for the rear. Reading reviews on several different tires doesn't point out another clearly superior to the G-one so I'll probably go with that again. Schwalbe did offer a online 20% discount off of an already reduced price but I'm going to pick one up from bike tires direct which isn't too far away.
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