Torque sensor mid-drive bikes with throttle (or bikes you can add throttle to) ?

[iamjcl]

Was looking to get some info on what's out there in a non-serious MTB or "trekking / adventure / trail" type bike (moderate off-road ability as well as street use) that has a mid-drive / torque sensor but also a throttle (or can be modded with a throttle possibly).

I ended up buying a Juiced Ripcurrent S as my 1st e-bike a while back, and like it a lot, but it is big and heavy (which I knew, and is OK for what I'm doing with it), but would like to consider an alternative that my wife could possibly use, and I could use as a lighter bike as well.

I really despise the pedal feel (or lack thereof) of the cadence-only bikes, which is why I bought the Juiced. The Juiced torque sensor is pretty decent, but it doesn't provide what say a Yamaha or Bosch system would. I tested a Giant Fathom which I really liked (yamaha drive), but with a bad knee I really need a throttle also. I will say I don't use the throttle much at all - a lot less than I thought I would - but when you need it, you need it if you don't want to crank down on the knee.

I know the Biktrix Juggernaut's have both, but that bike is pretty similar to what I have, although you can get it with 3" tires which would trim it down slightly.

Evelo has a new mid-drive FS bike that looks interesting, but I can't understand that while it has a throttle and mid-drive, there is no torque sensor...

So I guess I'd be interested to know about bikes in the 50-60 Lb. range that are mid-drive torque sensor drive with throttle and that are fairly off-road / trail capable (no track or serious riding at all).

There are a number of bikes that look like they'd be ones I might consider but don't have throttles (Giant, Trek, Haibike, etc...). If you could hack / add one that would be ideal.

Thanks for any insight.

 

[Ken M]

There are some new Bafang M600 mid-drive ebikes coming out that will have throttle and the icing on the cake they are powerful at 120nm. They've had the M620 Ultra drive for a while but it's really best for cargo bikes in my opinion.

If you contact me at Kenmaruska2 at gmail I can help you out with an early order of a PIM M600 mid-drive. I know C.Hopkins that has been in the industry for 25 years and is one of the founders of PIM and a top industry designer.

 

[iamjcl]

Does the m600 have a torque sensor like the Ultra?

 

[JRA]

Yes the M600 has a very good torque sensor system and as mentioned about the only one that does that can have a throttle also. Also look at the FLX Roadster/Trail but that PIM looks like a nice bike.

 

[vincent]

Second checking out the FLX bikes

The m600 is very smooth

 

[TForan]

There are some new Bafang M600 mid-drive ebikes coming out that will have throttle and the icing on the cake they are powerful at 120nm. They've had the M620 Ultra drive for a while but it's really best for cargo bikes in my opinion.

The Ultra also works great for fat bikes. Have you tried one ? I have one and love it. Every time I try one of these over regulated euroweenie motors, I just shake my head in disbelief. Power to the people !

 

[iamjcl]

The Ultra also works great for fat bikes. Have you tried one ? I have one and love it. Every time I try one of these over regulated euroweenie motors, I just shake my head in disbelief. Power to the people !

I'd love to try one. The Frey bikes, Juggernaut, M2S, Quiet Kat (overpriced) etc... all look interesting. I'd love to see the differences between these and my Juiced. M2S is not too far from a place I go occasionally, so maybe I could test ride one of their Ultra 1000w bikes or I think they have an m600 one also.

I'll say the Juiced torque sensor system works really well much of the time in my opinion, but only up to around 15mph or so. Above that, it seems more obvious, and seems to kind of be on / off / on, w/out really feeling like it pulses really, but you're just more aware of it trying to hold a certain speed. At lower speeds you don't really have any of that though.

 

[Ken M]

I'd love to try one. The Frey bikes, Juggernaut, M2S, Quiet Kat (overpriced) etc... all look interesting. I'd love to see the differences between these and my Juiced. M2S is not too far from a place I go occasionally, so maybe I could test ride one of their Ultra 1000w bikes or I think they have an m600 one also.

I'll say the Juiced torque sensor system works really well much of the time in my opinion, but only up to around 15mph or so. Above that, it seems more obvious, and seems to kind of be on / off / on, w/out really feeling like it pulses really, but you're just more aware of it trying to hold a certain speed. At lower speeds you don't really have any of that though.

I think Juiced utilizes a chain stay torque sensor which simply may not be a great sensor at higher speeds. The bottom bracket based sensors that measure torque from the cranks are inherently going to be more accurate and will not be impacted by stress in the chain stays. But they are more expensive.

I'm still of the mindset that while the torque PAS ebikes do provide assistance that emulates real riding they still have weaknesses (the obvious one being people with handicaps and leg issues so they can't put much torque into the pedals - being weaker they need the assistance more than strong riders but they get less and there is simply no way to resolve that without a throttle). At least Bafang decided their mid-drives coming to the US would have a throttle.

i'll go out on a limb that all of Europe will allow throttle ebikes in the near future (the UK just created a legal regulatory status for them).

 

[vincent]

I agree with Ken, those are perfect examples of where a cadence bike is superior for certain people

But I’m pretty impressed with this FLX except the throttle does not override till full power, I’m hoping someone figures out how to program that

One thing about these Flx bikes is they are pretty light ...

 

[iamjcl]

I agree with Ken, those are perfect examples of where a cadence bike is superior for certain people

But I’m pretty impressed with this FLX except the throttle does not override till full power, I’m hoping someone figures out how to program that

One thing about these Flx bikes is they are pretty light ...

What do you mean that the throttle does not override till full power?

It appears that the newer (current) FLX bikes throttle works from a stand still (as the older ones apparently did not), and that you can use throttle to the max speed the motor will attain (around 28 for the Trail or Stepthrough it seems, or maybe 35 for the Blade)?

Are you referring to what was said about having to be in the highest assist mode for the throttle only speed to go above 20?

After reviewing the FLX site, I'm pretty interested in the step through for my wife, and maybe a Trail or Blade for myself. Not sure how they appear to be quite a bit lighter than some of the other bikes with similar configurations though.

 

[vincent]

I think this is true of all the M 600 motors right now, in zero you can use the throttle and get full power but levels one through five throttle is limited to the amount of power that particular PAS level puts out

so if you just need a burst of speed for 30 seconds and you were in level one it does not override, does that make it more clear

A friend of mine is actually looking to buy this FLX bike I have now and think I may get a step thru if they get the throttle figured out

 

[iamjcl]

I think this is true of all the M 600 motors right now, in zero you can use the throttle and get full power but levels one through five throttle is limited to the amount of power that particular PAS level puts out

so if you just need a burst of speed for 30 seconds and you were in level one it does not override, does that make it more clear

A friend of mine is actually looking to buy this FLX bike I have now and think I may get a step thru if they get the throttle figured out

My Juiced bike throttle will work the same way in any PAS mode - up to 20mph, then it stops applying power via the throttle. The motor assists if you are pedaling up to 30+ mph or so on a full charge, 28 or so nominally (52v battery).

So I'm not sure what "mode 0" is, but you say you get full power - meaning to the limit of the bike's motor (probably 28 ish?)

And you are saying that if you are in other modes, the throttle doesn't assist at all, or it does assist, but only up to certain top speeds less than 20mph, which vary with the mode you are in?

If the above is the case, what are roughly the modes and maximum throttle only speeds in each mode?

 

[vincent]

I am pretty sure that juiced bikes work different, I’m not talking about top speed and whether the throttle works to 20 mph or 28 mph


I don’t know exactly what the cut offs are but I’ll give you a example

In zero PAs does not work and you only have throttle , but it will give you 100% of the motor power

Level one in PAS gives you 20% of the motor power, while you are in level one if you turn the throttle all the way you still only get 20% of the motor level, on your juiced bike I am almost positive you get 100% and override the PAS level does that make sense

Level two PAS let’s say you get 40% of the motor power available the throttle is also limited to 40% of the available power

In my opinion it is a completely stupid way to set the throttle up

I want my throttle to always give 100% of the motor power no matter what level it is it

It is pretty much my only gripe on this bike and I’m hoping they get that changed

 

[Ken M]

I agree ... a throttle should provide full assist power regardless of what PAS mode you are in. I could see value in having throttle assist varied only if there was a cruise mode that was tied to it in some way but there are better ways to have a cruise control on a throttle ebike.