Tongsheng slipping

[RickBradford]

I have a Tongsheng TSDZ2 with about 5000km on the clock, and I have posted before about various noises which are coming from the motor, without having fully solved the problem. Now I have another issue, which may even be the key to the problem.

When I begin pedaling from a standstill, whether the motor is on or not, the pedal will turn as much as a half-revolution, with only slight resistance and no sound, indicating that something inside is slipping badly. This continues until I have managed to build some speed, when there is usually a loud grinding noise from inside, something seems to grip correctly and settle down, and everything is fine from then on (until I stop again).

The question is: where is this slippage occurring, and what can I do about it. Is it the white plastic gear, which appears to have a metal sleeve inside? Or is there some more hidden element I have to look for. And then, is it a question of buying a custom part replacement, or could a dab of superglue fix things.

What is odd is that this does not impact the efficiency of the motor, as far as I can tell - I am still only using 9 - 10Wh/mile - although there is a persistent low-level grinding noise when I pedal.

Any help would be gratefully received: this motor suits my needs very well, and I am keen to restore it to full health.

 

[JRA]

Could be the sprag clutch? My suggestion would be to just get another motor, which if you are in Asia,should be as cheap as it gets. Install that and continue on and use you tube to help tear down your current motor which should end you up with a spare.

5000k @ 10wh\mile denotes very careful use.

 

[RickBradford]

Not a bad idea, simple drop-in replacement, only about $300, but I must admit I am tempted by the CYC Photon. I tend to do a lot of energetic pedaling, with the motor just to keep a good 17mph average, hence my low battery consumption.

What and where is the 'sprag clutch', so I can take a look?

 

[harryS]

Video

and you can buy it here. There are two versions for TSDZ2B and TSDZ2..

tongsheng TSDZ8 TSDZ2B Main Gear Pawl Clutch for electric bicycle mid drive motor Bearing Include

tongsheng TSDZ8 TSDZ2B Main Gear Pawl Clutch for electric bicycle mid drive motor Bearing Include

pswpower.com

 

[Catalyzt]

Man, I gotta say, the TSDZ2 (in my case, the "B" version) is a weird critter.

Some days, I'm convinced I'm going to replace it and go with something else-- and soon. On other days, I'm like, "What am I complaining about? This thing is actually great, it gives me a good workout, and it can go up almost anything I throw at it, it just takes a lot of effort. You're 66 years old, you need exercise, just ride it like you stole it and quit complaining."

I had one ride when I could swear it felt like I had a broken bearing somewhere in the motor or drive train-- ghastly clacking sound with every crank rotation. Then it went away and never returned.

Some days, my build can get into second, or even first briefly, with no problems, just some clattering from the crappy chainline. (The bottom bracket is really way too wide for this motor, but we knew that when I commissioned Pedaluma to build it.) Other days, it will drop the chain even in second. Today, it was bulletproof even on very steep grades.

The battery fade drives me crazy-- but even that seems much worse for some charges than for others. Sometimes, after about 10 miles (out of a range of about 34 in very hilly terrain) I'll really feel the power delivery drop of dramatically. But today, I probably ended my ride at about 25 miles, and the fade wasn't that noticeable until about 18 miles, and even then, it wasn't that bad, I was like, "Okay, I can live with this."

Sometimes I feel like it's really a 30nm motor. But on other rides, I've been making a hairpin turn on really steep terrain and thinking, "I just don't have enough power for this," and suddenly it will surge ahead like I just put the spurs to a horse, and I'll think, "Maybe it really is 85nm, but it can only deliver under certain conditions." (I never actually used spurs when I did ride horses!)

I'm always riding pretty much the same terrain. I do have some health issues, so it could be me, but my other bike is not this mercurial.

 

[RickBradford]

It could be that the motor's power output is limited to a narrow RPM (pedal cadence) range. Sometimes I feel that I am not getting enough power at a particular juncture, I change gear, and suddenly the power seems to surge.

I did read some information about this, but the accounts were contradictory. Some said that power delivery is best at 60RPM, another at 75, so I don't know what the facts really are.

 

[Catalyzt]

It could be that the motor's power output is limited to a narrow RPM (pedal cadence) range. Sometimes I feel that I am not getting enough power at a particular juncture, I change gear, and suddenly the power seems to surge.

I did read some information about this, but the accounts were contradictory. Some said that power delivery is best at 60RPM, another at 75, so I don't know what the facts really are.

<-- Exactly! (Or, it's a narrow range of RPM and pedal pressure.)

I wonder if mine would do better if the speed sensor was connected. Pedaluma thinks that the power required for it to make whatever calculations it needs to make may be significant, and/or that its little brain doesn't really know what to do with the information, will never get it right and will wind up hobbling the bike-- that anything involving the speed sensor ends with speed limiting, not increased efficiency. (I'm paraphrasing from multiple posts he made, and I may not have gotten that quite right, it's something like that.)

I don't think there's even any way to figure that out... researching that online is a total time vampire / rabbit hole. Like you say, everyone says something different.

 

[harryS]

It's hard to like a TSDZ2 if you've ridden other ebikes. The torque sensor is pretty stingy about letting out the motors 300 watts. I wasn't even sure mine was working when I first rode it, I wanted to junk it. but I persisted though, loading up the OSF firmware which is more generous with assist. Then I got to liking the way it worked. Converted a second bike for my wife, a TSDZ2B also with OSF firmware, and tweaked it so she could keep up. She says she likes it.

Nonetheless. we still fall on back our hubmotor bikes when it's windy or I feel lazy.

 

[RickBradford]

I also wanted to junk my TSDZ2 early on and go back to my old hub motor, but I made two changes that turned it into a motor I like.

First, I changed to the 500c display which is much more flexible than the clunky VLCD5.

Second, I got a larger battery so that I could use higher power modes without worrying about range for my regular commute. Now I have 576Wh, and at 10Wh/mile I have a large safety margin.

 

[harryS]

Hi, has anyone installed OSF on their tongsheng tsdz2b motor? If so, is it easy to do? And where can I find a programming cable?

I installed OSF on my second Tong Sheng, which was a TSDZ2B, There are some versions, primarily distributed in Europe, which are not OSF compatible. I bought my cable from Eco-cyles, but they closed. Their suggested alternate does sell them here.

Is it hard? Yeah, I guess it's hard, if you don't know your way around a windows PC. I kind of muddled thru loading the programming environment onto my laptop. I last did this kind of stuff 30 years ago on unix workstations. Ugh,

The basic approach uses this tool to read/write three firmware files in the TSDZ2 motor. You don't need to run it, but it does allow you to save the original firmware files from the motor, should you ever need to re-install them. If you get this far, you can simply raise the TSDZ2 current limits (you change one memory location) to see if that will be enough, At this point, you can load a basic OSF firmware file, but you also need to program a display. That gets too complicated for me. I didn't even investigate how you tune the OSF after that, So I don't even know how that baisc OSF file even runs.


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I chose to follow the embrusa/OSF path where they give you a tool where the various assist levels, etc can be chosen. Actually, one doesn't need to choose anythiing, other than choice of voltage and whether the throttle is active. It's preset with safe values that won't smoke the motor. I loaded it as-is with the base settings, and selected e-mtb mode, which is more responsive than the OEM firmware.

You have three screens to look at. Many options, but only a few matter. I eventually set up my wife bike to power up in hybrid mode. I lowered the motor settings for the first two assist levels so it wasn't too fast for her.



Yeah, it's a bit challenging for me anyway, but configuring the PC went well. Some troal-and-error tweaking the settings.

I don't recommend paying for a preprogrammed controller. Not knowing what they gve youm I think you may want to change it kater, For the hundred bcks they charge, might as well get a BBS02B, TSDZ8. or a DM02 if you want more power. They're not going tp melt either.

I didn't hot rod the TSDZ2. I used the same current limts. All I really did was set it to be more responsive to old man pedal power so I didn't have to press down so hard.

 

[RickBradford]

The main gear in your B version is roughly twice the cost of the older version main gear and it doesn't appear that the bearings themselves can be replaced in the gear as was possible with the older non-B model. Up to you to decide if it is worth it to replace the main gear and see if that corrects the problem or not. Main gear replacement is a relatively simple task.

I have ordered a replacement part from AliExpress which includes the bearing together with the gear ring. Cost was $30.

 

[PedalUma]

Could be the needle bearings on the shaft inside the blue gear. It is under the motor on the left side. Make sure you pack everything with grease.

 

[RickBradford]

I'm really not sure which version was shipped to me.

The gear I ordered was described as being compatible with both the original and the "B" version.

 

[PedalUma]

The gear I ordered

That is good. But the underlying problem may be on the left side, blue or white, depending if it is a 'B' version. The 'B' is a bit different on the right side. It has a lip that recesses down to help seal out water.

 

[RickBradford]

You may well be right.

I'll try the gear thing first, and if that doesn't do it, well, I'll have to do more investigation. Is it possible to tell which version I have from the look of the white gear? (pic attached)