Tongsheng assist levels

[EMGX]

BTW testing my 36v without the speed sensor didn't seem to affect assist one way or another but without it the motor would shut off every few minutes unless actively pedaling (as when descending long grades). That was with the xh18 display, very annoying. You can always hook your speed sensor up, it only takes a few minutes to install, anyone could do it without tools other than a flat blade screwdriver for the spoke magnet.

 

[Art Deco]

I am just starting to ride my 36V as riding season ends soon .. so I can't/won't offer any real world experience but don't forget the gearing difference between the bikes. What I can say is on my bike lowest boost level just lightens the bike a bit for flats, but doesn't feel or sound very boosted. Level 2 seems about right, and I don't know anything about battery life yet ...

 

[EMGX]

I believe it-- I've now gotten over 37 miles on moderately hilly terrain without hitting the reserve on a 90% charge. So even here, I might get over 40 miles.

However, I did go back to my other bike since the Marin got a flat, and there is no question: The little 40nm Shimano E5000 on the Motobecane provides far more assistance than the TSDZ2B tooling around my 4-mile fitness route, which has three steep hills. I was really surprised, but that has got to be part of why the motor is more efficient: I'm supplying more power. The battery fade on the Tongshen is also noticeably worse and kicks in sooner.

The Tongshen has a far higher top speed on flat terrain-- like, 7 MPH faster-- but it does require significant effort to get there. The Tongshen also provides more boost on the steepest hills in situations where the E5000 simply would not have enough grunt.

My opinion may change after I make some changes to the gears, hopefully also the chain ring, and go tubeless. Right now, it's not like I would prefer one motor or the other, they are just very different.

Post up if you ever do test install the speed sensor with spoke magnet. If so don't forget to check and make sure your wheel diameter setting is correct for your bike wheel size.
FWIW I wanted to test my 48v5ah yard tool battery with my 48v tsdz2. The tool battery is only 43v nominal (rated max 48v, or in reality 49.5v). Installed on my 20" folder with wheel size not correctly set it seemed anemic but when set to correct 20"diameter the assist was much improved throughout all 5 levels (actually a bit more than I wanted on the lowest setting) even with the low voltage/low capacity battery. It only takes a few minutes to install the speed sensor and calibrate for wheel size, bonus is that you then get odometer and speedometer readings - I find the odometer to be especially useful. I've found both to be very accurate.

 

[Catalyzt]

Post up if you ever do test install the speed sensor with spoke magnet. If so don't forget to check and make sure your wheel diameter setting is correct for your bike wheel size.
FWIW I wanted to test my 48v5ah yard tool battery with my 48v tsdz2. The tool battery is only 43v nominal (rated max 48v, or in reality 49.5v). Installed on my 20" folder with wheel size not correctly set it seemed anemic but when set to correct 20"diameter the assist was much improved throughout all 5 levels (actually a bit more than I wanted on the lowest setting) even with the low voltage/low capacity battery. It only takes a few minutes to install the speed sensor and calibrate for wheel size, bonus is that you then get odometer and speedometer readings - I find the odometer to be especially useful. I've found both to be very accurate.

Good ideas-- today, I'm hoping to get the (flat) rear wheel off and see if I can remove some gears and push the chain line outwards with spacers. I'll also have a look at the cassette and chain ring and see if it looks like there is unusual wear-- the friction I feel in the motor sounds like it is internal, but this motor is much louder than the E5000, so maybe I'm just hearing something unfamiliar and chain line friction is more of a problem than I thought.

In any event, getting proper gearing (both at the cassette, and at the crank, if the 38t narrow-wide actually will work, should help the torque sensor work better, so it should help even if it doesn't solve the problem.

I will circle back to Pedaluma and make sure that he set the wheel size correctly-- I'm certain he did-- but can't that be set without installing the speed sensor? If not, then yeah-- then it has to be installed and that has to be changed. I do have a separate speedometer and odometer that seem to be pretty accurate, that's how I am figuring the battery range.

I know it's insane, but last week, it felt like the Motobecane was jealous and competing with the Marin build. "Oh, so you think that bike is faster because it can take that easy little straightaway at 23 MPH? But I can take this little hill at 17 MPH instead of 14 MPH! Gee, looks like we got to the meeting 90 seconds faster, doesn't it, and you're not sweating quite so hard."

 

[slitespd]

I have recently bought a Tongsheng TSDZ2 torque sensor mid-drive, which has 4 modes - Eco, Tour, Sport and Turbo. It is said that this provides assist levels "from 36% to 300%". So if Eco provides 36% assist, and Turbo provides 300%, what levels of assist do the intermediate Tour and Sport modes give?

I originally thought it might be a simple doubling between levels, say 36%, 73%, 150%, 300% (nearly fits), but that doesn't fit in with the actual riding experience, which feels more like 36%, 100%, 200%, 300%.

Does anyone know the true figures?

Do find the four fixed levels of assist adequate? Do you wish it had more levels that might could be individually programed? I realize the parameters are very subjective but my thinking is leaning more towards the Bafang approach with up to nine levels. My main concern is the 36% starting level since my motor will be going on a SWB Bacchetta recumbent and I don’t want to feel an immediate lurch upon starting.

 

[Art Deco]

Level 1 boost is very little ... barely enough to offset the weight of my lightweight bike (maybe 40 lbs total ?). So you shouldn't have an issue with a heavier recumbent.

 

[slitespd]

Level 1 boost is very little ... barely enough to offset the weight of my lightweight bike (maybe 40 lbs total ?). So you shouldn't have an issue with a heavier recumbent.

Thank you for the reply AD I currently sit at about 32lbs and will be adding another 15lbs or so. My concern with the Bafang is the motor weight hanging way out on the boom and would prefer as light as possible.

 

[PedalUma]

@slitespd, That is a big deal, having the weight out on a boom like that up it the air. It makes a recumbent highly unstable. Also Bafangs have some lag before they kick-in, then some over-run after you stop pedaling. Here is a photo of the worst build I have ever seen. It is a death trap. Put the weight low and centered, like on the red bike. Or, where you would put ballast on a sailboat.

 

[slitespd]

@slitespd, That is a big deal, having the weight out on a boom like that up it the air. It makes a recumbent highly unstable. Also Bafangs have some lag before they kick-in, then some over-run after you stop pedaling. Here is a photo of the worst build I have ever seen. It is a death trap. Put the weight low and centered, like on the red bike. Or, where you would put ballast on a sailboat.

Hence my hesitation in purchasing anything as of yet! I am also considering a motorized hub with a lean towards the front wheel for better weight distribution overall. Battery mounted just below the seat.

 

[Art Deco]

Thank you for the reply AD I currently sit at about 32lbs and will be adding another 15lbs or so. My concern with the Bafang is the motor weight hanging way out on the boom and would prefer as light as possible.

Good point. What does a Bafang weigh ?

 

[EMGX]

I recently removed a tsdz2 from a bike and weighed the motor including the crank arms and sprocket, no pedals. It came in at 8.75 pounds. The regular bottom bracket cartridge, crank arms/spider and sprocket weighed a little over 2 pounds so the tsdz2 added about 6.5 pounds overall. This is from memory but I'm fairly sure that it is correct. The rest of the added weight depends on what capacity battery you would choose. BTW I have a "C3" display that has 5 levels of assist, I like having the 5 levels and never felt a need to have to adjust power levels (which it can't do anyway) it doesn't appear to be offered anymore. The 4 level displays I've tried are fine too. If you do go for one make sure in advance that your chainline will be acceptable as these aftermarket mid drives move the chainring outboard by necessity due to the reduction gear sitting outside the bottom bracket.

 

[RickBradford]

Do find the four fixed levels of assist adequate? Do you wish it had more levels that might could be individually programed? I realize the parameters are very subjective but my thinking is leaning more towards the Bafang approach with up to nine levels. My main concern is the 36% starting level since my motor will be going on a SWB Bacchetta recumbent and I don’t want to feel an immediate lurch upon starting.

As it is a torque-sensor motor, you can begin pedaling without too much power to avoid any lurch on starting off. The motor simply multiplies your own effort, so you can be as smooth as you like.

You can adjust the number of levels to 3, 5 or 9, if you are using the 500c display.

For me, 3 levels is too coarse-grained, while 9 would mean that I am constantly having to adjust the levels. I've used the 5-level setting and I think it's optimal.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

As it is a torque-sensor motor, you can begin pedaling without too much power to avoid any lurch on starting off. The motor simply multiplies your own effort, so you can be as smooth as you like.

You can adjust the number of levels to 3, 5 or 9, if you are using the 500c display.

For me, 3 levels is too coarse-grained, while 9 would mean that I am constantly having to adjust the levels. I've used the 5-level setting and I think it's optimal.

Definitely a matter of personal preference and riding style. I vastly prefer the option for 0-9 assist levels on my torque-sensing 500W 10-speed hub-drive. As you'd expect, level 1/9 assists with much less power than level 1/5, while levels 9/9 and 5/5 are the same.

I'm not a particularly strong rider, but I like to pedal, am generally in no hurry, and prefer to solve cadence problems with gear changes whenever possible. So the bike powers up in 1/9 and stays there 90-95% of the time.

This approach works for me only because I optimized my gearing for my local mix of hills and flats.

 

[harryS]

I have my BBS02 about 1 lb more than a TSDZ2, the latter being about 8.4 lbs on my bathroom scale without the crank arms.

I loaded up the OSF/embrusa firmware into our two Tong Shengs. The "stock" delivered settings are mild. Max current is unchanged, but more assist is allocated in the Eco/Tour mode. My wife thinks it's too weak for her on days when we see 15 mph prairie winds. She want back to her cadence bike, which pulls 20A vs 11A on the mid motor. I on the other hand like how it feels on my old 10 speed, and ride it mostly in Eco. Exercise has been good.

The newer BBS02's from pswpower shipped out with crappy pedal assist limits. You start out in PAS 1, hit 12 mph (mountain bike) and the assist stops. Pedalling gets hard, Stupid, as it happens again in PAS 2 at 15 mph, You have to constantly be raising the assist level, or start out in a high assist and now the pedallnig is too easy, The limits can be corrected with a PC and program cable, but it's more aggravation when it should be right the first tome.
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