Thoughts Of An Experienced E-Biker

[Dave Rocks]

"A good EBR member deserves empathy, not being poked."

tomjasz​

 

[Jason Knight]

All speech should be free . Who decides what isn't ? Another with a different opinion?

Not "all". Many times the US supreme court has ruled that hate speech isn't protected speech. It fails the metric common to most things people complain "But my rights" where you do not actually have the right to harm or even endanger others.

You see it with 'muricans all the time pissing and moaning about "rights" they can't even explain. See how those waving the flag highest, standing tallest for the tone-deaf anthem, and reciting the ritualistic indoctrinational socialist pledge the loudest are always first in line to trample on every liberty, right, and decency those symbols are supposed to represent. Enshrining four words from the 2nd amendment as if they were a commandment whilst wiping their arse with Article IV and the 1st.

It's why when Americans start running their mouths about their first amendment rights they're almost always wrong. Not only on the international stage where 80%+ of the world has zero damned clue what you're talking about, but also domestically where that right prevents the government from taking action. Has not a single blasted thing to do with what individuals can say or refuse to hear or allow on their property.

Thus if a site owner doesn't like how some people are talking, they are well within their right to kick your ass, my ass, or anybody else's ass out. "Freedom of speech" must also mean freedom from having it shoved down your throat. Same as freedom of -- and from -- the nonsensical fairy tales that are religion and faith. Just because you have the right to go make your own forums, and say whatever the hell you want on it, does not prevent the owners of this site from controlling what's on THEIR platform.

And that really sums up where most people cock-up yelling about their "freedumbs", They seem to think it applies to themselves and their rights, but never once considers the rights of others in their thought processes.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Most comfy bicycle ever for me.

Your Gazelle seems to be designed that way.

Now, a word about the firm and narrow saddle. I had to commute to Warsaw for the last three days, and the technical meetings with the company's engineers were to start at 8:30 am; I live in the suburbs. Taking my car was no option: The city was totally clogged in the traffic jam. (A participant was late as his car commute took him an hour instead of a quarter). For two days, I was driving my car to the Park + Ride lot; it took 8 minutes while it takes just 11 minutes on an e-bike. Then I had to take a commuter train and finally a bus: the commute was taking one and half hour or more.

At the end of the second day I asked the participants of the training I was leading whether I could appear in less formal clothes for the last day (explained to them I was intending to commute by a bike), to which they agreed. My morning Vado SL commute of 19 km took me 52 minutes (almost all via bike paths!), and the return against headwind was 20 km in 63 minutes. A car ride would take at least two hours!

I wore jeans, sneakers, a nice shirt & jacket, and a helmet. I was thinking of the Specialized Bridge Sport (a narrow and firm saddle) at the moment I mounted my VSL; and totally forgot about the saddle thing for the rest of my commutes on that day! The ride was just comfy. No need for chamois for a 20 km ride whatsoever! The firm saddle was giving me some leverage for more efficient pedalling!

 

[Zekeer]

Not "all". Many times the US supreme court has ruled that hate speech isn't protected speech. It fails the metric common to most things people complain "But my rights" where you do not actually have the right to harm or even endanger others.

You see it with 'muricans all the time pissing and moaning about "rights" they can't even explain. See how those waving the flag highest, standing tallest for the tone-deaf anthem, and reciting the ritualistic indoctrinational socialist pledge the loudest are always first in line to trample on every liberty, right, and decency those symbols are supposed to represent. Enshrining four words from the 2nd amendment as if they were a commandment whilst wiping their arse with Article IV and the 1st.

It's why when Americans start running their mouths about their first amendment rights they're almost always wrong. Not only on the international stage where 80%+ of the world has zero damned clue what you're talking about, but also domestically where that right prevents the government from taking action. Has not a single blasted thing to do with what individuals can say or refuse to hear or allow on their property.

Thus if a site owner doesn't like how some people are talking, they are well within their right to kick your ass, my ass, or anybody else's ass out. "Freedom of speech" must also mean freedom from having it shoved down your throat. Same as freedom of -- and from -- the nonsensical fairy tales that are religion and faith. Just because you have the right to go make your own forums, and say whatever the hell you want on it, does not prevent the owners of this site from controlling what's on THEIR platform.

And that really sums up where most people cock-up yelling about their "freedumbs", They seem to think it applies to themselves and their rights, but never once considers the rights of others in their thought processes.

Your problem sir is #1 where has the SUPREME COURT ruled on any speech? #2 The Court doesn't make the laws , congress does . #3 Freedom of anything comes from God not man . #4 Most of what people call ##hate speech is what's true . People hate the truth . Freedom from shoving it down your throat ??? LOL Go hide under your bed Anyone that tries to control your speech will eventually come for your soul .

 

[Zekeer]

A forum is a private operation and you agree to its terms of use when you sign up. You literally have no rights of free speech on a private forum. You have what the forum allows you to have, and you agree to behave up to a certain standard or else. As an administrator on a huge automotive forum I delivered this lesson to many keyboard commandos over several years of adult babysitting.

With that said, to maintain the integrity of the forum the staff balance their actions. Usually very carefully and deliberately. I personally had a policy of never removing content once it was posted, unless it affected someone's safety or other serious consequence. I also never privately admonished anyone. They got their punishment publicly for all to see. So lots of whining, but it was also clear to all that jerks weren't getting away with being jerks. It also reinforced to all that there were boundaries to stay within.

BUT... that was my call on a different forum. Every forum sets its own rules and manages its membership's conduct as it sees fit. So put away the Free Speech signs. They don't apply in internet discussion

I see your point . But I also see that there's a lot of double standards in forums . For example when someone says his right is to not have someone's speech and opinion crammed down his throat . He is in turn doing what he's complaining about from another member . And what I see is most forum favor the party who wants his speech heard , but yours silenced . Anyone that takes that position I believe knows he's wrong . Or why would he need what you're saying silenced ?

 

[Zekeer]

Your Gazelle seems to be designed that way.

Now, a word about the firm and narrow saddle. I had to commute to Warsaw for the last three days, and the technical meetings with the company's engineers were to start at 8:30 am; I live in the suburbs. Taking my car was no option: The city was totally clogged in the traffic jam. (A participant was late as his car commute took him an hour instead of a quarter). For two days, I was driving my car to the Park + Ride lot; it took 8 minutes while it takes just 11 minutes on an e-bike. Then I had to take a commuter train and finally a bus: the commute was taking one and half hour or more.

At the end of the second day I asked the participants of the training I was leading whether I could appear in less formal clothes for the last day (explained to them I was intending to commute by a bike), to which they agreed. My morning Vado SL commute of 19 km took me 52 minutes (almost all via bike paths!), and the return against headwind was 20 km in 63 minutes. A car ride would take at least two hours!

I wore jeans, sneakers, a nice shirt & jacket, and a helmet. I was thinking of the Specialized Bridge Sport (a narrow and firm saddle) at the moment I mounted my VSL; and totally forgot about the saddle thing for the rest of my commutes on that day! The ride was just comfy. No need for chamois for a 20 km ride whatsoever! The firm saddle was giving me some leverage for more efficient pedalling!

Good point : Fit our butts not our guts

 

[Djangodog]

Your problem sir is #1 where has the SUPREME COURT ruled on any speech? #2 The Court doesn't make the laws , congress does . #3 Freedom of anything comes from God not man . #4 Most of what people call ##hate speech is what's true . People hate the truth . Freedom from shoving it down your throat ??? LOL Go hide under your bed Anyone that tries to control your speech will eventually come for your soul .

#1, The Supreme Court has addressed the First Amendment many times, (you are free to look it up).

#2, Laws can still be challenged as unconstitutional, (through the courts).

#3, Freedoms for all only exist in a free society, (a society that protects freedoms).

#4, Your statement there says a lot about you and you have a right to your opinion, and I have an equal right to be repulsed by you opinion.

Your freedom ends where the next person begins.

 

[Lbrava]

A lot of off topic chatter here, but it's the the internet right. Anyway the Op's original post has some good points & I can attest to the fact that there are no unicorns out there. Hopefully the post helps out some new guys/gals just getting into the game. With so much tech & hype put into bikes, motorcycles & cars these days it's real easy to pay for a lot of machine you'll never use or even possibly regret you bought. Anyway a lot wisdom comes with maturity :

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Some people need to learn that the "free" in "free speech" doesn't mean the same thing as the "free" in "free beer".

 

[Djangodog]

A lot of off topic chatter here, but it's the the internet right. Anyway the Op's original post has some good points & I can attest to the fact that there are no unicorns out there. Hopefully the post helps out some new guys/gals just getting into the game. With so much tech & hype put into bikes, motorcycles & cars these days it's real easy to pay for a lot of machine you'll never use or even possibly regret you bought. Anyway a lot wisdom comes with maturity :

I don’t know if it was intentional, (you said “Anyway a lot wisdom comes with maturity :”), but the off topic free speech posts began after the word “mature” was censored, (removed from the title. Stefan has since replaced “mature” with “experienced”, but that could be just as easily censored).

It is off topic, but I think that it is a valid topic and pertains to a forum. Of course, the administration has every right to censor, but to some of us, this seemed to be a bit strange. Many threads on here end up getting hijacked. It seems to be the nature of the beast.

 

[tomjasz]

God

“I heard Allah and Buddha were singing at the Savior's feast
And up in the sky an Arabian rabbi
Fed Quaker Oats to a priest
Pretty good, not bad, they can't complain
'Cause actually all them gods are just about the same”

John Prine

 

[Jason Knight]

Your problem sir is #1 where has the SUPREME COURT ruled on any speech?

You might want to research before flapping your trap. You can start with Terminiello vs. Chicago, 1949 and work your way up from there. The first amendment rights of public gathering, free speech, and so forth have been tested in the courts many times. Both for and against. The general consensus held to this day was best expressed by Justice Brennan in '69

"The constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action."

Said ruling (Brandenburg v. Ohio, 1969) came out that burning a cross is in itself not illegal and prosecution and/or laws for that is a first amendment right violation. WHERE you burn it on the other hand -- like someone else's lawn -- is where the crime happens.

#2 The Court doesn't make the laws , congress does .

Laws are contested in the courts. In particular the leading reason for a case to be heard before the Supreme Court is to test laws against their Constitutionality. The Supreme Court DOES have the power to overturn unconstitutional laws. It's why it exists!!!

Thus laws against free speech, freedom of expression, and so forth appear before the supreme court all the time. If the normal cases are too dry for you, check out "Hustler Magazine Inc. vs. Falwell, 1988"

And repeatedly hate speech, incitement to riot, and calling for criminal behavior have been found to not be protected speech!

This is why we need to go back to teaching CIVICS instead of "social studies". What was that recent joke? Barf-fit Barbie and Bobo the Clown were told they needed to learn about civics, so they spent the day at a Honda dealership?

#3 Freedom of anything comes from God not man .

And somehow I figured someone objecting to the idea of actual rights -- as well as the mere notions of limits upon them -- would bring the noodle-doodle halfwitted fairy tale about their favorite flavor of cruel, capricious, vain, genocidal sky wizard into it.

#4 Most of what people call ##hate speech is what's true

You might want to familiarize yourself with the legal definition, the one the UN holds for it is good.

What is hate speech? | United Nations

www.un.org

So openly racist statements calling for criminal action such as screaming "death to Jews" or "put the n* back on the farms where they belong" is truth to you? Good job outing yourself!

Though you did that the moment you brought your dumbass fictional deity into it.

Anyone that tries to control your speech will eventually come for your soul .

Comedy gold from a "believer", where gormless nonsense like religion tries to control thought, speech, and everything else with their science denial, endless stream of gibberish lies and fictions, and active promotion of hatred as love, bigotry as tolerance, and ignorance as enlightenment. Oh sure they use the words, but any perceived good in religion are bookends to an agenda of hatred if not outright evil. A whitewash story to put posteriors in pews and coins in coffers, whilst promoting an agenda rooted in fear, stupidity, and wishful thinking.

But you're probably already too far gone,
withdrawn, the conclusion forgone.
But maybe there's still hope for the young
if they ignore the dung being slung from the tongues
of the ignorant fools who call themselves preachers,
and listen instead to their science teachers.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Could you please @Jason Knight not hijack my thread?
The topic is about what e-bikers' experiences about their gear and rides in a long run are.

 

[DavidRvR]

Could you please @Jason Knight not hijack my thread?
The topic is about what e-bikers' experiences about their gear and rides in a long run are.

Hate to admit it but I agree 100% ... Might even push it to 110%..Meds work.. when you take them..

 

[Jason Knight]

Could you please @Jason Knight not hijack my thread?
The topic is about what e-bikers' experiences about their gear and rides in a long run are.

Apologies for replying to other people's posts in the thread. How dare anyone ever do that. Thanks for singling me out too, it speaks volumes about who you are.

Sardonic wit aside, maybe we could get the mods to do a thread split?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Apologies for replying to other people's posts in the thread. How dare anyone ever do that. Thanks for singling me out too, it speaks volumes about who you are.

Sardonic wit aside, maybe we could get the mods to do a thread split?

I suggest you write on topic.

 

[Djangodog]

This being my first season riding an e-bike, I can’t call myself experienced, (and definitely not mature). Having been a lifelong cyclist, I do find the culture to be very different from conventional cycling and that the devisions within the e-bike community seem to run deep.

Conventional cyclists seem to get along better in general, (roadie, mountain biker, gravel, cyclocross, racer or recreational rider). They are all part of the same community and many tend to enjoy a mixture of disciplines and levels. The e-Bike community seems quite segregated in comparison. This is just my observation and there seem to be a number of e-bike riders that tend to be more inclusive. Maybe the attitudes will mature as e-biking evolves.

 

[tomjasz]

This being my first season riding an e-bike, I can’t call myself experienced, (and definitely not mature). Having been a lifelong cyclist, I do find the culture to be very different from conventional cycling and that the devisions within the e-bike community seem to run deep.

Conventional cyclists seem to get along better in general, (roadie, mountain biker, gravel, cyclocross, racer or recreational rider). They are all part of the same community and many tend to enjoy a mixture of disciplines and levels. The e-Bike community seems quite segregated in comparison. This is just my observation and there seem to be a number of e-bike riders that tend to be more inclusive. Maybe the attitudes will mature as e-biking evolves.

Man, you see a completely different world. I see and hear the bitterness between the spandex racers and general riders every time I'm on an MUP.

 

[DaveMatthews]

Perhaps there's a regional aspect to the cyclist types/attitudes?
It would not surprise me if riders on regular bikes (of all types) band together a little bit tighter these days.
When I first started with an ebike (Aug 2018) I rarely saw another ebike. Now it is extremely common.

 

[m@Robertson]

As cycling is further democratized, the population grows and the signal to noise ratio inevitably improves. The snobs get drowned out in a sea of normalcy. This has already happened to a degree with analog cyclists and sharing the road with ebikers. They've stopped trying to exclude and are now fighting a holding action with restrictions. That too will melt away as the ebike becomes the default and not a rarity. But its still early to write a conclusion. I see both @Djangodog and @tomjasz being correct. The ebike community is beset with purists (who are ironically apostates to the analog cycling community) demanding conformity to their personal cycling mores, and analog cyclists can't stand the presence or mere sight of the 'hello fun' group of easy riders, regardless of whether they have electric assist or not.

Interestingly, the thing that completely turned it around for me was switching to a cargo bike. I'm probably at 75-80% positive reaction from other analog cyclists and the only thing that has changed is riding a longtail with bags, or a bakfiets. People appreciate a bike with a job, and its visibly different nature seems to make it a whole lot easier to look past the inherent prejudice they would otherwise fall back on.