Talk About The Kindernay Gear System

[TomD]

That's what I thought so I think he meant downshift:

Definition of DOWNSHIFT

to shift an automotive vehicle into a lower gear; to move or shift to a lower level (as of speed, activity, or intensity)… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[byunbee]

I'm sure @pushkar knows gear shifting basics, but probably has a lot on his plate right now while trying to respond to forum threads.

 

[pushkar]

Yes. Apologies- I meant to say downshift to an easier gear. Not upshift.

 

[Ebiker33]

@pushkar

Ok this is a simplistic question but what numbers are the weakest gears for the these IGH ?
And does that make the 5 speed IGH ultimately more durable against the high torque of the ultra 510 ?

 

[AdilDesai]

Can the shifters be swapped so that upshifting is on the right and downshifting is on the left?

 

[pushkar]

Can the shifters be swapped so that upshifting is on the right and downshifting is on the left?

Good question. From what I see, it is just a standard hydraulic cable that you can swap and bleed again .

I’ll confirm with Kindernay though.

 

[pushkar]

@pushkar

Ok this is a simplistic question but what numbers are the weakest gears for the these IGH ?
And does that make the 5 speed IGH ultimately more durable against the high torque of the ultra 510 ?

I don’t know. I’ll check with Kindernay.
By 5 speed do you mean Shimano Inter 5 ?

 

[Ebiker33]

I don’t know. I’ll check with Kindernay.
By 5 speed do you mean Shimano Inter 5 ?

Just something like this
STURMEY

The direct gear is always the strongest, what is it on the Kindernay?

 

[pushkar]

Just something like this
STURMEY

I broke sturmey with a 500W M600 a month ago. That hub is only rated for 80Nm of torque, with peak of 100Nm.

I also spoke with Enviolo - the new 380SE is rated for 100Nm but they dont support torque of the m600 and m620.

 

[Ebiker33]

I broke sturmey with a 500W M600 a month ago. That hub is only rated for 80Nm of torque, with peak of 100Nm.

I also spoke with Enviolo - the new 380SE is rated for 100Nm but they dont support torque of the m600 and m620.

So I guess you won't be using that on your new bike with the M600, is this the guy that will get put on it?
Shimano IGH

 

[pushkar]

So I guess you won't be using that on your new bike with the M600, is this the guy that will get put on it?
Shimano IGH

That works on the M600, yes. But we pushed it out due to limited availability.

 

[AdilDesai]

Good question. From what I see, it is just a standard hydraulic cable that you can swap and bleed again .

I’ll confirm with Kindernay though.

Some of you know that I used to race cars. So in regards to the Kindernay shifting, aside from upshifting on the right and downshifting on the left, I'd like to know if the upshift can be a pull (similar to the brake lever) and the downshift remaining a push (as in what most are already used to with the thumb shift).

Sorry. Quirks of an old hobby being applied to a new passion.

 

[pushkar]

Some of you know that I used to race cars. So in regards to the Kindernay shifting, aside from upshifting on the right and downshifting on the left, I'd like to know if the upshift can be a pull (similar to the brake lever) and the downshift remaining a push (as in what most are already used to with the thumb shift).

Sorry. Quirks of an old hobby being applied to a new passion.

Right now both operations are via a "push" action. I am not sure if the newer single hand shifter will have dual action (push / pull).

 

[AdilDesai]

Right now both operations are via a "push" action. I am not sure if the newer single hand shifter will have dual action (push / pull).

I did see (hear) that a single leaver was in the works. Timeframe?

 

[pushkar]

I did see (hear) that a single leaver was in the works. Timeframe?

Its in testing - they have a prototype. Realistically mid- 2021.

 

[Deafcat]

This is a super cool option for Watt Wagon bikes and I'm stoked to see this hub being put to use! Seems so much more practical than the Rohloff for sure.

 

[onlineaddy]

More practical? How so, @Deafcat ?

 

[mebentz2]

1. This depends on gearing - if riding in the right gear, this will not be a problem (like the rohloff).
2. As is the case with most hubs, this is the max torque rating on the weakest gear.


If you are geared correctly, and are not sending 250Nm of torque via a throttle, you will be fine. We restrict throttle on our bikes to 60-70Nm (~500-600W power equivalent).

Can you explain this built-in torque limitation in context of the higher power options? How is the 2300W achieved if the torque is limited?

This chart seems to show that torque is way above 200 Nm? Or is this showing the output at the crank and not thru the belt drive gear ratio?

When you say the throttle torque is limited to 60-70Nm, then is that also measured at the crank? Would this be equivalent to the grey dashed line (Modern 250-500W nominal mid motors)?

Why would 200Nm be okay if pedaling but not ok from the throttle only? If I'm pedaling, then the human torque + motor torque would be even higher than throttle only? That should be around 400Nm total at the crank, right? (human + motor). What is the tooth count of the belt drive? Are you using the 19T rear and 60T front? That would be 0.31 or 124Nm of torque at the input to the IGH? (which seems fine).

Perhaps that 70Nm throttle limit is measured at the input to the IGH? In which case it would be 225Nm at the crank?

I'm still trying to figure out which configuration of this bike I want to purchase. I'd like the configuration with highest top speed that doesn't rip itself apart.

Are there any plans for a gear shift pressure sensor to limit motor power output during a shift? The nice thing about the hydraulic system is you should be able to detect the oil pressure quite easily and could know when the shift completed thru the pressure alone, no? I'd love to have an option to limit low pedal cadence torque too (instead of that ramp from 0-2mph, I'd like to ramp from 0-15mph)

 

[Deafcat]

I'm still trying to figure out which configuration of this bike I want to purchase. I'd like the configuration with highest top speed that doesn't rip itself apart.

When it comes to getting the highest top speed, playing it safe isn't the way... Ya gotta break some eggs to make an omelette and all that

More practical? How so, @Deafcat ?

Sounds like the Kindernay has more torque rating, better shifting under (light) load, way better shifting feel, solid compatibility with newer frames (thru-axle), and a great solution to multiple wheelsets.

 

[Explorer-1]

When it comes to getting the highest top speed, playing it safe isn't the way... Ya gotta break some eggs to make an omelette and all that




Sounds like the Kindernay has more torque rating, better shifting under (light) load, way better shifting feel, solid compatibility with newer frames (thru-axle), and a great solution to multiple wheelsets.

... but ugly ergonomics with the current dual shifters or 3rd-Part twist shifters. Still really loving the different hub options, but really want to see more of these built into a hub motor.