Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.
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FTC Complaint
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Sondors is up to it again, this time on kick-starter
BTW, and as expected, he never shows up at court!
http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/201...hes-new-crowdfunding-campaign-on-kickstarter/
BTW, and as expected, he never shows up at court!
http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/201...hes-new-crowdfunding-campaign-on-kickstarter/
one4torque
Active Member
I got what I paid for, and am pleased with the purchase. Also backed up the quality of the bike/price with my local bike shop.
Not sure what there is to complain about.
Peace.
Not sure what there is to complain about.
Peace.
FTC Complaint
Active Member
Bad business
He is not making court dates
He is not paying the vendor who made him successful - $100 a bike
He has yet to deliver all the bikes paid for
He does not have product liability insurance - around 5% of gross sales or $50 a bike
Many/Most people needed assembly support/help $50 - $100 a bike
He has an express and an implied warranty; but good luck trying to get it honored
Folks overpaid for shipping which was to be at cost with a maximum being the stated amount
He bilked the inventor of the bike who paid consideration in prototyping
He "leveraged" the frame geometry and design (ip of a another company)
Documentation or lack thereof
Customer support/recall capacity etc
Illegality
Materially false advertising
Bottom Line
$250-$400 costs of providing the same product legitimately
Just a heads up... I texted with Storm today about the new bikes, they do not include the LCD, you'll need to order it separately for $100 here. Also, the new bikes are single speed, the upgraded battery option for $70 gets you a 12.8 Amp Hour battery vs. the standard 8.8 Ah and the "narrower" tire option is a standard 26" x 4" whereas the original Sondors (and updated fat design) has 26" x 4.9". Hope this helps anyone considering the bike... I spent something like $850 today for one of the new models with a suspension fork and larger battery for review next year, didn't go with the Aluminum frame but I'd guess it's a couple pounds lighter?
Also, I agree with some of the points made by @FTC Complaint and am not endorsing Sondors, I try to offer every person and every brand respect and general support. I got the bike for review so I could bring more information to the community. I wonder if some of the original bikes ordered for Australia will be repurposed here for the updated campaign. Reduce, Reuse and Recycle right?
FTC Complaint
Active Member
Just a heads up... I texted with Storm today about the new bikes, they do not include the LCD, you'll need to order it separately for $100 here. Also, the new bikes are single speed, the upgraded battery option for $70 gets you a 12.8 Amp Hour battery vs. the standard 8.8 Ah and the "narrower" tire option is a standard 26" x 4" whereas the original Sondors (and updated fat design) has 26" x 4.9". Hope this helps anyone considering the bike... I spent something like $850 today for one of the new models with a suspension fork and larger battery for review next year, didn't go with the Aluminum frame but I'd guess it's a couple pounds lighter?
Also, I agree with some of the points made by @FTC Complaint and am not endorsing Sondors, I try to offer every person and every brand respect and general support. I got the bike for review so I could bring more information to the community. I wonder if some of the original bikes ordered for Australia will be repurposed here for the updated campaign. Reduce, Reuse and Recycle right?
The bike as a "generic bike" seems adequate and the marketing effort has attracted more people to "electric bikes" which is positive; the price differential can be attributed to costs which a "diligent business person" with something to lose {either money, reputation, or going concern} would factor in to his numbers. Sondor's not showing up to court was anticipated because that is how most judgement proof individuals operate.
The simpler path would have been to bilk bike purchasers instead of vendors and business partners. Purchasers of the product "got lucky" because failure to preform on the retail level might be construed as criminal fraud; it is likely that Agency 2.0 (and perhaps Hopp) will obtain unenforceable civil judgments and thus Storm will capture $600,000-$800,000+ margin at the expense of others, while having civil judgments against him effectively closing out his major concern (Storm being Judgement proof). A court judgement means very little to Sondors other than confirmation that he can steal from others and get away with it free and clear.
At least two parties let Sondors off knowing that legal action would not be cost justifiable. (the frame designer, and the trademark violation)
By in far this is a very sophisticated scam, and it evolved in a way that honest people would have a problem anticipating.
From a retail perspective, and in our culture, and in consumerism; civic responsibility and ethics rarely if ever factor into consideration and follow on personal conduct. You cannot control what Storm does but you can "vote" with your dollars. Unfortunately, withholding money from bad players does not factor into the ideology of consumerism.
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scmike
Active Member
Just a heads up... I texted with Storm today about the new bikes, they do not include the LCD, you'll need to order it separately for $100 here. Also, the new bikes are single speed, the upgraded battery option for $70 gets you a 12.8 Amp Hour battery vs. the standard 8.8 Ah and the "narrower" tire option is a standard 26" x 4" whereas the original Sondors (and updated fat design) has 26" x 4.9". Hope this helps anyone considering the bike... I spent something like $850 today for one of the new models with a suspension fork and larger battery for review next year, didn't go with the Aluminum frame but I'd guess it's a couple pounds lighter?
Also, I agree with some of the points made by @FTC Complaint and am not endorsing Sondors, I try to offer every person and every brand respect and general support. I got the bike for review so I could bring more information to the community. I wonder if some of the original bikes ordered for Australia will be repurposed here for the updated campaign. Reduce, Reuse and Recycle right?
Court,
Fill us in again, what happened with the "Australian" Storms?
Just be clear, you ordered the "the new design Sondors, $499+ 194 sh. + 70 s forks+ 85 big battery = $848 And you are ordering the LCD separately? And do you have any idea of a delivery date? I emailed Storm about the total weight, haven't heard back yet. I would guess the suspension forks paired with the original steel frame and narrower tires will weigh in around 66 lbs... maybe 63 with the alum frame???
wa5
Well-Known Member
Court, could I suggest that you keep the new one a little longer, I for one would be very interested in a long term test, say over a month or two? a better chance to find positives and negatives about the bike and an opportunity to really put the range issue to bed with a dedicated test. no sand, no stop start, just ride til it stops.
How would buyers who paid over $499 for the original bike be feeling about the lowering of the price again?
Would the "Sondors owners club" mentioned in the new campaign be the secretive private facebook page? the one run by sycophants with a Hitler complex? if so, it might be worth laying down $500 just to get guaranteed membership, T Voltaire has been feeling a little frisky of late.
Interesting that Sondors didn't go with Indiegogo again, I guess they must have screwed him over in much the same way as Agency 2.0 allegedly did?. what other reason would he have for not showing loyalty to the team that gave him his success?
Also interesting how the crowdfunding industry works, KS must be well aware of Ivars past, his financial "issues" with A2.0, his "selective understanding" of contractual terms and reluctance to adhere to same. yet they signed him up. One would hope they have a waterproof contract and then some.
How would buyers who paid over $499 for the original bike be feeling about the lowering of the price again?
Would the "Sondors owners club" mentioned in the new campaign be the secretive private facebook page? the one run by sycophants with a Hitler complex? if so, it might be worth laying down $500 just to get guaranteed membership, T Voltaire has been feeling a little frisky of late
.Interesting that Sondors didn't go with Indiegogo again, I guess they must have screwed him over in much the same way as Agency 2.0 allegedly did?. what other reason would he have for not showing loyalty to the team that gave him his success?
Also interesting how the crowdfunding industry works, KS must be well aware of Ivars past, his financial "issues" with A2.0, his "selective understanding" of contractual terms and reluctance to adhere to same. yet they signed him up. One would hope they have a waterproof contract and then some.
George S.
Well-Known Member
Agency 2.0 and IGG are almost one and the same. A2 tends to speak for IGG. Since Agency is suing Sondors, it's hard to see Storm and IGG having a very healthy relationship.
Actually, almost everything Storm is doing with this campaign fixes what was wrong with the A2/IGG campaign. They say it is not a store, that you aren't buying anything. He isn't charging a fee to put down a deposit, apparently. They aren't trying to ship to places that are troublesome. They aren't stuck with the IGG Perk-arama, where everything was another stupid little perk. It's a friendly campaign, a nicer campaign. Everyone knows this bike now. It is what it is.
Yeah, it's a lower price, but every company has sales. The people behind the Sondors website are "Hitler"? Come on.
Actually, I have a question for Mr. Sondors. It is simple. "Will any of this IGG stuff, especially the Agency 2.o lawsuit, come back to hurt the people engaged in this Kickstarter campaign? Will any potential legal liability to Storm Sondors bleed over into this new campaign?"
This is the one protection I want for the Kickstarter backers. If he will answer this, great.
wa5
Well-Known Member
Posted above by George S..
Steve Bee
18 hours ago
Be warned: If you live in Aus, NZ or Switzerland, you won’t get be getting a bike:
“We regret to inform you that customs has declined entry of your Sondors eBike into the country and we have no choice but to return them to the warehouse and refund you in full. What’s the reason? Our current 350W option does not meet the 250W
limit. Please accept our humble apologies and note that we’re currently working with our accounting team and Indiegogo to process these refunds asap.
Sincerely,
Storm"
J.R.
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Piedmont Highlands
1. I'm very happy to see decent ebikes being offered at decent prices. (Period, end of thought one)
2. This further dilutes the idea of crowd-funding. Sondors has gotten their kick start (small k). Sondors ebikes took in millions in 2015, why do they need crowd-funding?
3. @Court paying for a bike to review it, does that set a bad president? Can EBR afford to do that with other brands?
2. This further dilutes the idea of crowd-funding. Sondors has gotten their kick start (small k). Sondors ebikes took in millions in 2015, why do they need crowd-funding?
3. @Court paying for a bike to review it, does that set a bad president? Can EBR afford to do that with other brands?
wa5
Well-Known Member
Accepted term for any tin pot dictator from the office to an entire country. or in this case, a facebook page.
pxpaulx
Well-Known Member
I agree on point 1! On point 2, it is probably just easier to offer the bike again with some upgrades they decided would be well received while they were doing the first production runs.
On point 3 I kinda sorta agree, however I am also in the boat where I'd like to see a longer term impression of the bike (not just this bike, but others as well, however this bike from day one has been a unique beast). To that point, I think actually that having to purchase the bike invites a more frank and honest assessment as there is no real direct tie to the manufacturer/maker of the bike. I do think @Court has done a great job of keeping himself as unbiased as possible, and also appreciate that he has kept some direct contact with Sondors through everything.
In general I'm in George's camp - level headed consumer. Civil court cases are not uncommon - if Apple wins their suit against Samsung, would those here vehemently opposing the sondors bike also start up a forum and comments section based campaign against Samsung and its users? I kinda doubt it. So why worry over a business to business court case with which you have zero skin in the game?
George S.
Well-Known Member
Well, it could be a lot worse. I made a token contribution to this campaign, to follow it. They ran into big problems getting their bikes into several countries, and they basically told people to pony up a lot of money if they want the bikes. This is the problem with CF campaigns, where they just don't know what can go wrong:
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...-unde/posts/1349769?ref=backer_project_update
You want update #14. I think these are open to the public. I'm not sure what it cost Sondors to deliver the bikes he got into Europe. I'm not surprised they are going with "USA only" this time.
J.R.
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Piedmont Highlands
On 2, I'm sure it's easier, but claims by crowd-funding sites that "this is not a store" when you've had the kind of success that Sondors has had could draw a lot of unwanted attention by the tax man and regulators. You can't really claim it's not a store for V-2 after millions of dollars of success with V-1. Radrover went private after a successful campaign.
Speaking of Radrover, Court didn't have to purchase a bike for review. I look at EBR like I do MotorWeek, they do long-term and short-term reviews and evaluations without purchasing. With the maturity of both the ebike market in the US and EBR, quality ebike brands will want the scrutiny and notoriety of a Court review. That will take more reviewers. I realize Court buying a bike and doing a review benefits current buyers and gives notoriety to both Sondors and EBR, but that's very short sighted, it doesn't help the ebike industry in the US and puts no pressure on new bike brands to allow for impartial review of their product.
I think it good that he buys a bike. He will know the whole process not just the bike, special case to learn about purchasing since the Sonders situation is different then pretty much anything else before. I agree about seeing some long term tests and the whole owners experience is worth learning about.
I would use Cadillac as an example ...from my understanding theses expensive cars are not the most reliable out there but dealers make up for it with the whole owners experience and they get repeat customers. My experience with high end bikes has been the oposite
I would use Cadillac as an example ...from my understanding theses expensive cars are not the most reliable out there but dealers make up for it with the whole owners experience and they get repeat customers. My experience with high end bikes has been the oposite
FTC Complaint
Active Member
Add in probable "California Sales Tax Avoidance or Evasion," to skirting ignoring or failing to know about domestic and international legal, tariff, and standards compliance.
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