Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

On the gosondo site they were talking about selling the bike in the future. Now they just send people over to IGG for the indemand.
 
I just found that the lawsuit by Agency 2.0 for non-payment in/over the $500,000 range.

Correction: The amount is "$444,713.000 plus interest." representing a fee

Agency 2.0 got paid for some costs, but many checks were bounced in the process.

"The suit alleges that Sondors and his e-bike company wrote bad checks totaling $160,000, and failed to share any of the $524,000 Agency 2.0 claims it is due.Agency 2.0, in the complaint, is asking to be paid "no less than $444,713.000 plus interest."


Folks paid $5.5 million for an ebike
Indidigo got paid its fee up front!
Indigogo has kept about $2.1 million dollars to protect itself!
Agency 2.0 got bilked for $500,000 and had to go to court
Sondors got $3.4 million dollars!

The folks that paid for a bike are now "bag holders" of risk and "are the last folks to get value" from the money they paid.
 
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I feel that the folks that purchased a Storm Sondors bike are entitled to a buyers bill of rights. As such;

You have a right to a product which is safe to operate and which conforms to all laws and standards. You have the right to a product that has undergone adequate testing. You have the right to a electric bike that has adequate product liability coverage. You have the right to post sales customer support, You have the right to an adequate warranty. You have a right to ask for a refund before delivery. You have the right to demand an unconditional guarantee on the product after delivery. You have the right to transparency about the true specifications of this offering. You have the right to know if the business plan can be fulfilled.

All these items are really questions; none of which are answered.
 
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It wouldn't be a cheap bike then, would it? People who bought that bike were people who wanted a bike that is cheap. Cheaper than whatever else out there. Comparable or better to Walmart bike. They went for the deal. They got sold.
 
Perhaps I am misunderstanding the concept of crowdfunding, but is it not a format for potentially experimental projects to get funded? That would imply that newer ideas/items that conventional banks would reject have a platform for receiving money independent of the thing being proven. Now, with that said, if Sonders does go through with manufacturing these ebikes, I think most folks can feel reasonably certain that the bike is going to work---we're all just wondering if its going to get here. :rolleyes: If what he has left after paying IGG is 3.5 Mil, with 12K bikes, each bike is going to cost him approx. $292 to manufacture. Getting freight covered now must have him squirming a bit, thus the harsh reminder to the 'investors' to get their freight paid or lose their shipment slot or bike. This math doesn't include the 500K that A2.0 indicates it is owed, so that slices the $$ even thinner for production and doesn't leave anything for support or profit potentially.
 
Ann, I think your math is a little off but your methodology is sound.

Probably more like 7000 +/- bikes (the 12k figure on the IGG site represents every single transaction including those that spent $1 to endlessly bicker about it on there to little or no obvious effect) and a bunch of extra batteries. It is at $5.5 mil so 500k to A2.0 and 4% to IGG is 220k leaves Sondors with 4.8+/- to be able to deliver the bikes and extra batteries. Not sure how many extra batteries there are but even taking them out of the equation the cost of each bike delivered would be roughly $683. So there is room for profit to be made due to the total number of units even if he only makes $50/unit but that all depends on his cost per unit which figure we will probably never be privy to.

The problem I have is that he is potentially dumping 7000 cheap as possible e bikes into the e bike market that will leave some happy to have and I predict the bulk not quite as much. And regardless of aftermarket support you know it is going to be hard to manage on that large of a scale.
 
JRA said:
Ann, I think your math is a little off but your methodology is sound.

Probably more like 7000 +/- bikes (the 12k figure on the IGG site represents every single transaction including those that spent $1 to endlessly bicker about it on there to little or no obvious effect) and a bunch of extra batteries. It is at $5.5 mil so 500k to A2.0 and 4% to IGG is 220k leaves Sondors with 4.8+/- to be able to deliver the bikes and extra batteries. Not sure how many extra batteries there are but even taking them out of the equation the cost of each bike delivered would be roughly $683. So there is room for profit to be made due to the total number of units even if he only makes $50/unit but that all depends on his cost per unit which figure we will probably never be privy to.

The problem I have is that he is potentially dumping 7000 cheap as possible e bikes into the e bike market that will leave some happy to have and I predict the bulk not quite as much. And regardless of aftermarket support you know it is going to be hard to manage on that large of a scale.
Click to expand...

$550,000 to Agency 2.0 plus marketing expenses say $160,000
Indiegogo and Paypal fees
Indigogo hold back a business complexity
Need to pay a second PR agency
Help desk costs
Legal fees, just this single action will be $25,000 or more.
Around 10,000 units sold, with monies owed for shipping lagging

Until proven otherwise
Sales Tax issues, ignored
Product Liability Insurance, Ignored
Customer service, Ignored
Post Sales Support, Ignored
Shipping Warehousing, goods handling, Ignored.
Tariff issues, ignored
Legality of Operation, US/state Australia/state and EU ignored
Warranty Ignored, Merchant-ability, Implied, and explicit
US and European Laws for required testing of bicycle, ignored
Certification of battery, ignored
Serviceability, Ignored
Reserves for product liability, ignored
Monies to support a going concern, ignored?

Frankly, there does not seem to be the capacity to address the above business concerns.

Is this fraud of bad business?

At the least it is a consumer pump and dump as all the above issues and concerns are as of yet ignored. However, ethically, A very strong case can be made and argued for false adverting both against Storm and Agency 2.0.

With Storm, There is now a track record of civil fraud for non-payment both proven and now alleged.

The consumer is just too feckless to ask any questions.

My suggestion is that purchasers of this bike ask for a refund.
 
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on the top bar of the first "production" bike, just above the battery box, there are two items on the base of the top bar, are they cable holders? given that this bike is never going to have cables running in that area, why would they be included on the frame? Chinese manufacturers aren't noted for their generosity, and placing those mounts would involve another production process, and add cost.

So, is the frame a buy in? even though its one of the only thing they are claiming to produce.
or, is it being produced by Storms manufacturer from an existing model?
Or is it (and its black younger brother) a buyin, put together to give the appearance of a start up of mass production?

I have a suspicion that the battery cover hasn't reached production yet, the yellow bike had one, but the second, black one doesn't appear to.

and still no pictures of mass production, even though some facets started "days ago", Why?
 
wa5 said:
on the top bar of the first "production" bike, just above the battery box, there are two items on the base of the top bar, are they cable holders? given that this bike is never going to have cables running in that area, why would they be included on the frame? Chinese manufacturers aren't noted for their generosity, and placing those mounts would involve another production process, and add cost.

So, is the frame a buy in? even though its one of the only thing they are claiming to produce.
or, is it being produced by Storms manufacturer from an existing model?
Or is it (and its black younger brother) a buyin, put together to give the appearance of a start up of mass production?

I have a suspicion that the battery cover hasn't reached production yet, the yellow bike had one, but the second, black one doesn't appear to.

and still no pictures of mass production, even though some facets started "days ago", Why?
Click to expand...

To me it looks like the battery box just goes together under the battery mount - I'm guessing it isn't held into the frame at many anchor points so being able to add it after production is probably how they are handling those being installed.
 
The cable holders don't appear to touch the battery box. they don't appear to be used to secure the box, they would seem redundant.
 
wa5 said:
on the top bar of the first "production" bike, just above the battery box, there are two items on the base of the top bar, are they cable holders? given that this bike is never going to have cables running in that area, why would they be included on the frame? Chinese manufacturers aren't noted for their generosity, and placing those mounts would involve another production process, and add cost.

So, is the frame a buy in? even though its one of the only thing they are claiming to produce.
or, is it being produced by Storms manufacturer from an existing model?
Or is it (and its black younger brother) a buyin, put together to give the appearance of a start up of mass production?

I have a suspicion that the battery cover hasn't reached production yet, the yellow bike had one, but the second, black one doesn't appear to.

and still no pictures of mass production, even though some facets started "days ago", Why?
Click to expand...

Except for the yellow triangle case and other cosmetic options (which add unnecessary cost, and will in this case reduce margin), the bike is a standard Chinese product. There is no additional effort to "mass produce" a bike which is already in mass production. The dog and pony show of Sondors rushing off to manage production, or to take a few PR pics, is totally ludicrous

With a Chinese manufacturer you sign off on a specification, then manage the outcome so you actually get the specification on a consistent basis.

Business concerns and considerations are the most pressing and egregious issue of the Sondors campaign and they are an integral part of the delivery of a complete product. None of the business concerns raised has or will be addressed and that is telling, because a bike is not complete even if it is physically delivered! Physical delivery has become less likely with a (or several) lawsuits in the background.

Who is to say he is going to pay his Chinese manufacturer? I am sure they will become aware of the lawsuit and take protective measures.
 
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wa5 said:
The cable holders don't appear to touch the battery box. they don't appear to be used to secure the box, they would seem redundant.
Click to expand...

wa5, What pic are you referring to? The prototype/demo bike had some kind of battery box mounts that do touch the top of the box... Also those yellow rims on the black bike look painted, the orange rims anodized... The 2 bikes in this pic look staged not part of a production line... progress.. yellow bike could be demo bike with new wheels some new parts?? https://images.indiegogo.com/file_a..._Shot_2015-04-21_at_7.38.55_PM.png?1429670359
 
wa5, I just watched Court's demo day vid again... There are 2 cable mounts on each side of the top bar, the left side has the rear brake cable going through them.. So the right side ones appear to not be needed. I can't really figure out how the plastic triangle box is mounted from the video... but it does look like the battery mounts to the box.. so the battery on the black bike is mounted directly to the frame.. but all that means nothing.. The Chinese factory reps are just trying to make copies... it would appear??? I would bet there is only one yellow triangle box at this point.. I still think that's the demo
bike with new wheels and some new parts...
 
Bruce Choate maintains that it is a new bike, I really don't know, my eyes aren't that sharp, but I'd love to know one way or another. anybody see anything that can prove it either way?
 
A new bike with the old yellow triangle box... okay... Who is Bruce Choate, is he with the campaign?
 
mike bombardieri said:
A new bike with the old yellow triangle box... okay... Who is Bruce Choate, is he with the campaign?
Click to expand...

Wellllll. that's an interesting question, with the way he springs to the defence of all parties connected with this campaign, you'd be excused for thinking he (and his mate Philip Hillis , posts as Biknut here) has a serious amount invested, they both claim to have access to the movers and shakers in this campaign, but vehemently deny any financial connection.

you can read some of Bruce and Phils more delusional posts here... https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sondors-electric-bike/x/10104815#comments
 
Philip Hillis
5 hours ago
wolverton

Update 29 indicates all the bikes are being shipped individually from China. Shipping starts on, or around May 1st. When your bike ships depends on where you are in the line of funders. First to last.

From update 29:

Q) Are there group discounts for shipping when buying multiple bikes?

A) No, each bike is shipped individually so needs to shipping needs to be paid for individually for each bike.

There is no indication of a shipping date and PH is indicating that the bikes will ship individually from China? It doesn't read that way to me and it makes no sense to individually ship all the bikes from China over bulk in a container for the amount that are proposed. All it means to me is that they aren't going to give an inch on the original $194 as has been beaten to death already.
 
Looks like Sondors is going to start shipping as planned. The ergo grips are a nice adder. All those doubters will be changing their meme pretty soon to complain about the size of the shipping box or the grease in the chain. Lol
 
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