Say Hello To Storm
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Chas
Member
I built three 350watt ebikes 36v10ah. I literally supply half the power (I'm a strong rider) and go about 22-24 miles on a 30lb e-mountain-bike. I couldn't do that on the storm bike because of the gearing and the weight. Sure, 50 miles is possible in theory. I can do 100 miles at 20 mph with no battery, so I guess pedal range is anything you want it to be. What counts is what the bike can do on its own, as Court showed us with the Sand Viper (riding on a sidewalk).
wa5
Well-Known Member
there were 100 people, they rode about 100 metres each, that equates to about 10km or 6 miles, The Storm should have been able to do that on its ear.. even in soft sand apparently
I think Courts test of the sand viper ably demonstrated what soft sand does for bikes with 350 watts .. it reduces the range to zero.
The second production bike, the one that has been sent off to China / Berlin / Upper Mongolia / Where ever the bike is being manufactured... has anybody got a picture of it?
If the bike is made from pre existing components, why did they need to send one to the factory? not being involved in manufacturing, I don't know the procedure, but I would have thought a list of parts and a blue print with all specifications emailed to the factory would have been sufficient?
I think Courts test of the sand viper ably demonstrated what soft sand does for bikes with 350 watts .. it reduces the range to zero.
The second production bike, the one that has been sent off to China / Berlin / Upper Mongolia / Where ever the bike is being manufactured... has anybody got a picture of it?
If the bike is made from pre existing components, why did they need to send one to the factory? not being involved in manufacturing, I don't know the procedure, but I would have thought a list of parts and a blue print with all specifications emailed to the factory would have been sufficient?
lilrich1959
Member
Couldn't sleep again tonight so thought I would get on the forum and see what's up. Spent my day off doing a conversion on a Catrike Villager at least that was more productive for a crazy ebike tech like me. Checking out this Storm thread now that's just insanity. Kudos to you Court for your patience with the kids and bullies that seem to have found a home here. Maybe you should get a campaign going to fund some servers to hold all the garbage piling up here. Think I'll skip checking out this thread anymore not a lot of ebike information to be had or news about this particular bike, more than I cared to know about a few of the members though.....Ride on
There is no news about this bike, that is the whole point of the thread - there is no honesty or clarity, there are exaggerated claims and changing specs, the whole Campaign is highly suspect - I am sorry the thread is not bike focussed, moreover about the suspicion about the campaign - I only found this forum because of being banned for asking simple questions on the Storm FB page - so I apologise anyway
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Hmm... looks like the original Storm video has been taken down. Maybe to help avoid misleading people given the initial confusion over demo vs. production build?
Mike leroy
Active Member
I hope Storm succeeds. I am just going to bluntly say this marketing approach is manipulative. Here is my justification:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristics_in_judgment_and_decision-making#Attribute_substitution
Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel prize in economics for his work in mathematical psychology. Kahneman truly revolutionized stock investment with Prospect Theory.
Prospect theory is a behavioral economic theory that describes the way people choose between probabilistic alternatives that involve risk, where the probabilities of outcomes are known.
The theory states that people make decisions based on the potential value of losses and gains rather than the final outcome,
and that people evaluate these losses and gains using certain heuristics.
The model is descriptive: it tries to model real-life choices, rather than optimal decisions. The theory was created in 1979 and developed in 1992 by Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky as a psychologicallymore accurate description of decision making, compared to the expected utility theory. In the original formulation the term prospect referred to a lottery.
If you read Thinking, Fast and Slow, economic behavior becomes more clear. How to best use resources like EBR.com is one tool towards a high-ticket purchase.
One heuristic related to overall ratings is "Anchoring":
"Anchoring and adjustment is a heuristic used in many situations where people estimate a number.[27] According to Tversky and Kahneman's original description, it involves starting from a readily available number—the "anchor"—and shifting either up or down to reach an answer that seems plausible"
Anchoring also causes particular difficulty when many numbers are combined into a composite judgment. Tversky and Kahneman demonstrated this by asking a group of people to rapidly estimate the product 8 x 7 x 6 x 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1. Another group had to estimate the same product in reverse order; 1 x 2 x 3 x 4 x 5 x 6 x 7 x 8. Both groups underestimated the answer by a wide margin, but the latter group's average estimate was significantly smaller.[33] The explanation in terms of anchoring is that people multiply the first few terms of each product and anchor on that figure.[33] A less abstract task is to estimate the probability that an aircraft will crash, given that there are numerous possible faults each with a likelihood of one in a million. A common finding from studies of these tasks is that people anchor on the small component probabilities and so underestimate the total.[33]
Another heurisitic is "Attribute Substitution":
In 2002 Daniel Kahneman and Shane Frederick proposed a process called attribute substitution which happens without conscious awareness. According to this theory, when somebody makes a judgment (of a target attribute) which is computationally complex, a rather more easily calculated heuristic attribute is substituted.[45] In effect, a difficult problem is dealt with by answering a rather simpler problem, without the person being aware this is happening.[42] This explains why individuals can be unaware of their own biases, and why biases persist even when the subject is made aware of them. It also explains why human judgments often fail to show regression toward the mean.[42][45][46]
Affect heuristic - Perhaps the most important
"Affect", in this context, is a feeling such as fear, pleasure or surprise. It is shorter in duration than a mood, occurring rapidly and involuntarily in response to a stimulus. While reading the words "lung cancer" might generate an affect of dread, the words "mother's love" can create an affect of affection and comfort. When people use affect ("gut responses") to judge benefits or risks, they are using the affect heuristic.[40] The affect heuristic has been used to explain why messages framed to activate emotions are more persuasive than those framed in a purely factual way.[41]
Because the largest market segment is ANCHORED on price. Convincing this market segment about other ATTRIBUTES is a very difficult sell.
These are only a few of the many more reasons why I use a Google Sheet to compare bikes.
The following graphs illustrate Prospect Theory. The graphs illustrate why people have much less resistance towards purchasing a Storm vs. a high-end bike.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristics_in_judgment_and_decision-making#Attribute_substitution
Daniel Kahneman won a Nobel prize in economics for his work in mathematical psychology. Kahneman truly revolutionized stock investment with Prospect Theory.
Prospect theory is a behavioral economic theory that describes the way people choose between probabilistic alternatives that involve risk, where the probabilities of outcomes are known.
The theory states that people make decisions based on the potential value of losses and gains rather than the final outcome,
and that people evaluate these losses and gains using certain heuristics.
The model is descriptive: it tries to model real-life choices, rather than optimal decisions. The theory was created in 1979 and developed in 1992 by Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky as a psychologicallymore accurate description of decision making, compared to the expected utility theory. In the original formulation the term prospect referred to a lottery.
If you read Thinking, Fast and Slow, economic behavior becomes more clear. How to best use resources like EBR.com is one tool towards a high-ticket purchase.
One heuristic related to overall ratings is "Anchoring":
"Anchoring and adjustment is a heuristic used in many situations where people estimate a number.[27] According to Tversky and Kahneman's original description, it involves starting from a readily available number—the "anchor"—and shifting either up or down to reach an answer that seems plausible"
Anchoring also causes particular difficulty when many numbers are combined into a composite judgment. Tversky and Kahneman demonstrated this by asking a group of people to rapidly estimate the product 8 x 7 x 6 x 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x 1. Another group had to estimate the same product in reverse order; 1 x 2 x 3 x 4 x 5 x 6 x 7 x 8. Both groups underestimated the answer by a wide margin, but the latter group's average estimate was significantly smaller.[33] The explanation in terms of anchoring is that people multiply the first few terms of each product and anchor on that figure.[33] A less abstract task is to estimate the probability that an aircraft will crash, given that there are numerous possible faults each with a likelihood of one in a million. A common finding from studies of these tasks is that people anchor on the small component probabilities and so underestimate the total.[33]
Another heurisitic is "Attribute Substitution":
In 2002 Daniel Kahneman and Shane Frederick proposed a process called attribute substitution which happens without conscious awareness. According to this theory, when somebody makes a judgment (of a target attribute) which is computationally complex, a rather more easily calculated heuristic attribute is substituted.[45] In effect, a difficult problem is dealt with by answering a rather simpler problem, without the person being aware this is happening.[42] This explains why individuals can be unaware of their own biases, and why biases persist even when the subject is made aware of them. It also explains why human judgments often fail to show regression toward the mean.[42][45][46]
Affect heuristic - Perhaps the most important
"Affect", in this context, is a feeling such as fear, pleasure or surprise. It is shorter in duration than a mood, occurring rapidly and involuntarily in response to a stimulus. While reading the words "lung cancer" might generate an affect of dread, the words "mother's love" can create an affect of affection and comfort. When people use affect ("gut responses") to judge benefits or risks, they are using the affect heuristic.[40] The affect heuristic has been used to explain why messages framed to activate emotions are more persuasive than those framed in a purely factual way.[41]
Because the largest market segment is ANCHORED on price. Convincing this market segment about other ATTRIBUTES is a very difficult sell.
These are only a few of the many more reasons why I use a Google Sheet to compare bikes.
The following graphs illustrate Prospect Theory. The graphs illustrate why people have much less resistance towards purchasing a Storm vs. a high-end bike.
Chas
Member
This bike (no pedals)? Yeah, if they had never posted that, I would have found the campaign more believable. Maybe it is maturing, or maybe they are just getting rid of the incriminating evidence.
That video is of a 3000 watt (72v) bike*. I have a screen capture from that video that shows the cycle analyst reading 72 volts and 1400 watts when it was doing about 14mph in the sand. That certainly isn’t what they are selling.
* Prototype bike in original videos has Crystalyte HS motor, 72v Electric Rider battery, Crystalyte 40A controller
There is hype - price baiting to buy earlier before the price goes up, misleading claims and so on.
And there is hype.
Philip Hillis
7 hours ago
Even though no one has one yet, Storm eBikes are already well on the way to becoming the most famous eBikes of all time. All of us that took advantage of this offer will be a part of eBike history, and our bikes will be instant collector items.
So please don't miss out, become part of eBike history and have your name written in the stars.......... for contributing 4% of your non-refundable pledge to Indiegogo, however much to Agency 2.0 for their unprofessional efforts, and a load of money for a global Google Adsense Campaign when you have no idea what you are buying or when/if you are likely to receive anything at all.
And there is hype.
Philip Hillis
7 hours ago
Even though no one has one yet, Storm eBikes are already well on the way to becoming the most famous eBikes of all time. All of us that took advantage of this offer will be a part of eBike history, and our bikes will be instant collector items.
So please don't miss out, become part of eBike history and have your name written in the stars.......... for contributing 4% of your non-refundable pledge to Indiegogo, however much to Agency 2.0 for their unprofessional efforts, and a load of money for a global Google Adsense Campaign when you have no idea what you are buying or when/if you are likely to receive anything at all.
wa5
Well-Known Member
I saw my first fat bike today at the local big W.. (think K mart)... wow, are those tyres and rims W I D E... it really doesn't come across in the pictures
I can see why these things get so much attention..
Funny, I had to go tot he discount store to see one, the specialized bike shop in the main street didn't have one..
I can see why these things get so much attention..
Funny, I had to go tot he discount store to see one, the specialized bike shop in the main street didn't have one..
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wa5
Well-Known Member
just thinking about this a bit more... 100 bums on the seat.. bike going from stand still 100 times getting to the end of the circuit... then turning round and doing it again... and still had some juice in it at the end of the day... given the spec of the battery, does that seem right? given that acceleration takes more energy that maintaining a steady speed (I know aerodynamics come into it at much higher speeds)... would you expect that type of battery to be able to do that?
Given the results of the sand viper test, I'd have my doubts... could the battery have been a bit "special?
Not that I'd call that dis honest in those circumstances.. more a way to keep the bike running all day so more punters could ride it....
Mike leroy
Active Member
If the technology works that well, then it is the ultimate stop-and-go commuter. Or, does it mean the bike was pedaled or coasted more than driven by the motor? It seemed the rider needed to dodge heavy pedestrian traffic. Not a lot a sustained load, certainly not a typical cadence RPM. Was the controller programmed to optimize for this usage pattern?
I wonder what the speed range was? My guess is 10-15mph for 500 yards? For what type of rider is this a valid use-case?
Providing some qualifying data is important. Otherwise, consumers will accept the demo event as evidence of a long-lasting battery.
It would be interesting to reenact the same scenario on a bike with well understood battery characteristics. What would the actual difference be?
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Sondors has sourced a combination battery with integrated controller that outperforms the Bosch Powerpack range at a fraction of the price on an entry level no frills bike with fat tyres - what we are witnessing here is a revolution, a new dawn, a new light - Companies will make hundreds of people redundant, because Storm will show he can run a global despatch on himself - who needs support networks?
Even I.........
a person paid by a US manufacturer to be a troll and disrupt the Campaign (the anonymous the.insurance.guy on the IGG forums), a person who knows nothing and who spreads lies and exaggerates figures (@Bruce Choate ) or the latest is I am a Florida bike shop owner who harasses females offline and action has been taken against by IGG (Ryan Mercer, IGG forums)...
...can see through this.
Even I.........
a person paid by a US manufacturer to be a troll and disrupt the Campaign (the anonymous the.insurance.guy on the IGG forums), a person who knows nothing and who spreads lies and exaggerates figures (@Bruce Choate ) or the latest is I am a Florida bike shop owner who harasses females offline and action has been taken against by IGG (Ryan Mercer, IGG forums)...
...can see through this.
Chas
Member
wa5: Yeah, you can easily put more amp hours in those bottle batteries. They hold standard 18650 cells and are sold in various capacities. You can’t tell by looking at the outside, so who knows? From the Sand Viper report, the 8.8Ah version would be good for about 45 minutes.
Storm’s bafang XO2 motor is typically a 260rpm motor. @36v It will do 20mph in ideal circumstances on a lighter bike (I’ve never tried a motor like that on a 60lb fat bike, so I don’t know the impact). I would like to have seen a Strava data recording of a ride though.
(P.S. As for fat bikes, you apparently don’t live in the great white north. Fat Bikes is all I have seen in the bike shops around here in the winters for years. Did you happen to pick up the bike and check out how much it weighed? Steel ones are pretty heavy!).
wa5
Well-Known Member
It seems that FTC Complaint has bought the Storms "existence" (a very relative term in this case).. to the attention of the relative safety authorities.
If the bike is not legal for sale in the US or UK, has anybody alerted those countries Customs departments?
Also, there seems to be some question as to what duties should be paid and who should pay them on this bike, indeed I have seen discussion on another forum that suggests people should declare the Storm as a used/ demonstration unit.. or as a gift.. (as its only a "gift" after you "donate" 499/599/699, I'm not sure if that will stand up).. Perhaps the friendly crowd at Uncle Sam's & HMs' Taxation department also need to be made aware of these developments?
If the bike is not legal for sale in the US or UK, has anybody alerted those countries Customs departments?
Also, there seems to be some question as to what duties should be paid and who should pay them on this bike, indeed I have seen discussion on another forum that suggests people should declare the Storm as a used/ demonstration unit.. or as a gift.. (as its only a "gift" after you "donate" 499/599/699, I'm not sure if that will stand up).. Perhaps the friendly crowd at Uncle Sam's & HMs' Taxation department also need to be made aware of these developments?
Mike leroy
Active Member
Why 260RPM? I cannot imagine why they want such a torque curve. It seems the industry standard is 140RPM. What is the heat generated at 260RPM?
A link to some industry standard performance charts regarding motors.
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wa5
Well-Known Member
Down Under Mate, Never goes below 3 or 4 C' here in New South Wales on the East Coast of Australia... bike felt fairly heavy in comparison with regular mountain bikes..
Just on the Google adsense campaign .. seems to be showing up on quite a few Australian websites as well, so its going global... not sure how focused these ads are though, I search for e bike on ebay and google. so I'm a prime candidate.
A further question on import duties / taxes on these bikes... some funders are planning to claim them as gifts.. claiming that they didn't pay for a bike..... I don't think that US or UK Authorities are going to accept that... so heres the million dollar question, will they be charged import duty / tax on their 499/ 599/ 699 funding amount, or will they be charged on the bikes recommended retail price of $1299?
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