Say Hello To Storm

@Court , what is the point? Biknut is trying to demean my posts by saying I am paid (I assume by a competitor) on other forums from which I am banned. I say I am not paid, I own my own company and have directed other members to my website - he tells others I am paid. Which is a tribute in itself for a muppet like me who took issue with being banned for asking questions and now seems to know what he is talking about! on a more positive note I am having some really constructive dialogue with forum members and at least shaking hands virtually instead of this bickering - I found interestin that the third largest manufacturer in the US has an annual output of 6000 bikes and they have a national network of dealers to support. Sondors team of one (does the other guy even do anything?) will simply not cope with the issues arising from 7500 volume in three months - sure the Chinese can manufacture something, but that is only the first step in pulling this off. Wish he would stop the exaggerated claims and get a team on board or tie in with a US ebike manufacturer (if any will touch him) - raise the price to deliver a fantastic, globally supported product.
 
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Court is right, we have all got a little carried away with ourselves. Time to get this back onto a more even keel. (thankyou for the reality check Court, sometimes we cant see whats right in front of us)

For the second time, one of the doubters is extending an olive branch to you Bikenut, I'd hope this time, you'd take it.

if you choose not to, that's ok, but I wont be insulting you by calling you names or making baseless accusations. Mark you, this does not mean I will be backing off on our disagreement. nor does it mean I don't want each and every one of storms customers to get a decent bike for their hard earned dough.
 
biknut said:
Here's a very interesting article, I'm sure you'll all enjoy this.
Click to expand...

Wow, that was a VERY interesting read. Having interacted with Storm at the Demo Day, I now have a better understanding (and quite frankly, appreciation) for what must have been going on in his head on that day. I give him a lot of credit for being so friendly, so transparent, and so real.

It may seem to some that he's "in over his head" but he is clearly a smart man, with good intentions in place. He's not a grifter, he's not a con man, and he's not going to run off to some remote island with all of our cash.

All things considered, that article makes me feel better about my contribution to this project. It's increased my optimism. There more press his chosen team (and this project) get, as the campaign winds down, the more eyes are on this project to fulfill its promises.

Thanks for sharing!
 
That is a good article. It's better to give the benefit of the doubt in campaigns, as that's what crowdfunding campaigns are really all about . No one on the Storm campaign has been ripped off at this point, no one was forced to contribute, everyone is an adult and has made this leap of their own free will. And yes, it is a leap of faith to fund any campaign on one of these crowdfunding ventures. There is risk involved, that's part of the downside of contributing to a campaign versus purchasing a product already out. Don't want risk? Don't play on a crowdfunding site. Need a tidy transaction with absolutely defined processes all the way through at the moment you put some money down? Don't play on a crowdfunding site. Need assurance that the product owners or designers have a business that is well-defined, concrete, and have worked through all the logistics and biz issues before plunking down money? Don't play on a crowdfunding site.

This is a choice, 100%. No one HAS to take this risk and there is no absolute guarantee that everything will mesh perfectly to someone's satisfaction. Guess what? Don't play with crowdfunding campaigns! There is risk involved even if you think there shouldn't be and it's not fair.
 
biknut said:
Here's a very interesting article, I'm sure you'll all enjoy this.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-autism-entrepreneur-20150228-story.html#page=2
Click to expand...

I enjoyed reading the article too, and it is heartening to read about this untouchable and unreachable figure and my sympathies are with him if he struggles with the difficulties caused by Aspbergers.

I am confused, I thought John Hopp was the Design Genius and Sondors was the Manufacturing Fulfilment expert?

The same old crap is being peddled though, a range of 50 miles between a 90 minute charge to full capacity. In spite of our differences Philip, you are clearly knowledgeable and educated - do you feel pledgers will be disappointed when the range and performance is nothing like this? It is better than the Bosch Power Pack, battery alone at $900+! Do you agree?

Also in PM with another member, they explained that the third largest ebike manufacturing co in the USA has an annual output of 6000 bikes - for Sondors and his team of two to believe they can bring 7500 bikes to a global market in three months without the attendant logistical and support difficulties is naive, by way of understatement. Do you agree?

On both the IGG site and in this article reference is made to bike sales or bikes being sold - it is likely that these bikes will be subject to sales tax. You cannot retrospectively argue that the bikes were a reward for a contribution when you have it plastered all over the www in a high-profile campaign that Sondors has sold 7000 bikes. Do you agree?

@Fofer, I have never honestly thought that once the campaign is over he would take the money and run. I, and I believe others, believe the project is unrealisable without getting a professional team on board, revising performance to dampen expectations, and ultimately managing the success which he undoubtedly has had - but bringing an untested product to a global market is different from raising money on IGG.

I am trying to appreciate both sides of the fence, how anyone can deny these are reasonable concerns would stagger me - two men to bring to market an uncertified and untested product at an average of 30000 units a year with no national support structure, never mind global support structure.........
 
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I completely missed this

We'll send you a reminder about shipping cost before the end of the campaign, at which point we'll present you with an option to pay the cost.

Will be interesting for sure what this means and how much it is, or how it is calculated before the end of the campaign - I guess just another opportunity to generate revenue.
 
@PowerMe - I got this email advising me that you had written as below, but I think it was posted in the wrong thread so was deleted.

Until the first bike is actually delivered it will be unknown if the campaign lives up to it's hype partially or not at all. I'm kind of surprised at the level of sheer obsession over this campaign and this bike. How would folks here have reacted if they were evaluating other eBike type campaigns? (FlyKly, et. al.). A year+ late on delivery and that is a known thing for FlyKly. Right now, at this moment, no eBikes from the Storm campaign are late. No one can say this eBike sucks or has problems or doesn't meet some minimal acceptable level, because there are no data points for that (yet).

What people who read Court's reviews will want to know is the actual performance, the actual specs, Court's evaluation of fit and finish and how it feels. And that cannot be achieved until at least some of these ebikes are shipped and Court gets his hands on one and gives it the Court review treatment.

There's something else going on here purely from a psychological standpoint and I don't know exactly what it is. Maybe this happens in lots of campaigns through those crowdfunding platforms, I don't know. But the level of hysteria and personal wars about an eBike product that technically does not even exist yet, and is being debated to death and back, on this board, is weird.

If I were Court I'd close down and force this whole Sh!tStorm off my board and only allow discussion of it to come back once there was an actual product to review. Otherwise? It's like watching little kids arguing which superhero is more powerful. Dude, they aren't real!

To my mind the debate is not about an ebike, or Storm Sondors - from my perspective it is about a fraudulent and misleading Campaign, with specs that are exaggerated (even by the admission of the most ardent Sondors fan). There is no clarity or consistency whatsoever.

The IGG Campaign website is still advertising estimated delivery in May 2015, elsewhere it states shipping from May 2015, geared or direct drive? Both claims are there. Hydraulic or Cable actuated brakes? Both there...... and a range of 50 miles (with or without pedal assist), both are there too. Why did the bike suddenly put on 13.5-14lbs? I seek clarity on the tax situation on the IGG comments page, ebike.4.all agrees with me that sales tax will be applicable, and the comment is deleted - and then there are repeated posts stating that it has been discovered that I am a paid troll by a major ebike company, first claimed on another forum by Philip (Biknut). Chris Olenik of Agency 2.0 then responds that they are aware of it and are taking appropriate action. A key member of Sondors team knowingly lies on a public forum to try and stifle questions about tax and performance that he just cannot answer.

This Campaign has touched a nerve in me, or rather the attempt to silence me has maddened me at times. The article peddled to contributors like myself about Sondors and his Aspergers is a PR exercise, the timing is deliberate. The campaign is stalling because relatively few people think the bike will be worth it at $599 (as opposed to $499) - the price hasn't gone up as it was claimed to bait people to buying/pledging early.

I think people are being deliberately misled, so here is my final position and I can be adjudged on it

  • the Sondors ebike will not have a full charge time of 90 minutes
  • the Sondors ebike will not go to a max range of 50 miles between charges (or 90 minutes of pedal free activity)
  • the Sondors campaign will be beset by huge logistical and support problems
  • the Sondors campaign will attract the attention of the tax authorities and the end-user price will increase
  • the Sondors campaign is rooted on one bike only in existence and a media campaign by Agency 2.0
  • there has been no thought or professional planning for this campaign to achieve its' stated goals
  • I doubt whether the Sondors ebike will hit 20 mph on all but the flat with a tail wind and a very light rider.
Good weekend.
 
We get it. You've posted these same thoughts hundreds of times already. We get it. Please, give it a rest.

You're ruining this sub-forum with your vomit.
 
Fofer said:
We get it. You've posted these same thoughts hundreds of times already. We get it. Please, give it a rest.

You're ruining this sub-forum with your vomit.
Click to expand...
I won't respond in the manner which your post deserves, I know you get it, have you considered the questions below?

The same old crap is being peddled though, a range of 50 miles between a 90 minute charge to full capacity. In spite of our differences Philip, you are clearly knowledgeable and educated - do you feel pledgers will be disappointed when the range and performance is nothing like this? It is better than the Bosch Power Pack, battery alone at $900+! Do you agree?

Also in PM with another member, they explained that the third largest ebike manufacturing co in the USA has an annual output of 6000 bikes - for Sondors and his team of two to believe they can bring 7500 bikes to a global market in three months without the attendant logistical and support difficulties is naive, by way of understatement. Do you agree?

On both the IGG site and in this article reference is made to bike sales or bikes being sold - it is likely that these bikes will be subject to sales tax. You cannot retrospectively argue that the bikes were a reward for a contribution when you have it plastered all over the www in a high-profile campaign that Sondors has sold 7000 bikes. Do you agree?

@Fofer I am genuinely interested in your response to the above as a fellow Contributor, these seem quite reasonable questions to me - I'll take your comment on the chin about my vomit ruining the sub-forum but please respond.
 
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I'm comfortably gambling with the amount of money I've contributed to this campaign. I understand the risks, and am optimistic about the reward.

That's all.

Your incessant, long-winded, aggressive and insulting posts across various fora make you come off like a raving lunatic.

Take a deep breath. You're raising valid points but doing yourself a disservice by delivering them so poorly.
 
@Fofer I shall take your comments on board, I wish I had the approach and manner of @George S. but I don't so I apologise.

I agree it is a gamble, a risk I have no problem with that - however some people think they have bought a bike which will perform as stated. I m sorry if you find my posts insulting, I don't know where I have been insulting but probably in response to really immature behaviour on the SS Owners Club Facebook page, or having to put up with Chris Olenik lying and saying they are aware of news flash announcements that I am a paid troll by a major ebike manufacturer.

Are you in a position to respond to the above questions, I would just be interested what your response is.
 
A comment from Storm Owners Foruum concerning the Sondors / Aspergers report.
LD Steiner1. Too bad they couldn't spell his name right.

2. I guess that answers the question about whether Ivars is Storm. The details of his background from this story match up with what they uncovered about Ivars, though I didn't find anything to badmouth him for

END...

Does this mean that Strom & Ivars are one in the same?....

can anybody clear this up?
and what was the matter that Ivars was sued over ?
 
Trev in fairness to Sondors even if he is or was Ivars how does it impact on the integrity of this campaign? Personal fraud for approaching candidates behind a Company's back is not really relevant to whether can pull this off IMHO.

This may be of interest, certainly to @biknut and @Court

https://electricfatbike.wordpress.c...-the-storm-campaign-can-expect-in-the-future/

You: “But the Storm website says I will get 50 miles of range”

Me: “The website is wrong, trust me on this. You will never get 50 miles of range on this bike with this battery on a throttle system. No one will. They are misrepresenting the capabilities of this bike. Period.”

philip hillis (edit aka Biknut) on February 9, 2015 at 9:26 am said:
Decent, Nothing here I can’t live with, or even didn’t expect. Only thing I slightly disagree with is about the mechanical brakes. They’ll be more than adequate for a bike this slow. Once you learn how to stretch a battery, your range will be greatly improved.

No further comment is required other than he knows full well that what I have complained about all along is correct (estimated 13 mile range on average)
 
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Ian Grace
less than a minute ago
Philip (Biknut) – where did you mention this view in the article used by the Campaign Manager to sway doubters, that the bike was actually going to do what it claimed? Your integrity is shot, you are a shill, nothing less.

cubepeep-498b6a6e7b2f24eeb152e2dd65a63483.png

Ian Grace
3 minutes ago
Philip (Biknut) grow up.

I’ve substantiated my view that you are a snide hypocrite here – you actually agree that the average range you will get from this bike is 13 miles!

http://electricbikereview.com/community/threads/say-hello-to-storm.1228/page-24

cubepeep-498b6a6e7b2f24eeb152e2dd65a63483.png

Philip Hillis
7 minutes ago
In the dictionary next to the definition of paid troll, is a picture of Ian Grace
 
I see the same guy is still talking. And saying the same things over and over and over and over and over again. Ugh.

See ya!
 
@Chas - saw your post on the Due Diligence thread but did not comment out of respect for the thread rules. You have encapsulated my expectations too, I think they were pretty accurate. I have highlighted to Biknut that he also has expectations in line with yours, however for the past two weeks we have been embroiled in a tit-for-tat war of words. Now the explanation for the 13 mile range is that Biknut believes those figures were derived from performance on soft sand and 50 miles range is possible.

Philip Hillis
2 hours ago
Ian Grace, aka paid troll. If you knew anything about eBikes, which you don’t, you’d know range varies greatly depending on many factors. Some people may only get 13 miles riding in deep sand. Others will get much farther, and some will even get 50 miles. There’s in fact no conflict on the IGG website.

Signed,

biknut

cubepeep-498b6a6e7b2f24eeb152e2dd65a63483.png

Ian Grace
2 hours ago
Philip why would anyone hire me (I am always open to offers) when Bruce notes I have no knowledge of anything etc – well I found you guys out, the specs on this campaign are totally misleading. Here’s the plug for you again.

I’ve substantiated my view that you are a snide hypocrite here – you actually agree that the average range you will get from this bike is 13 miles!

http://electricbikereview.com/community/threads/say-hello-to-storm.1228/page-24 (with links to the article https://electricfatbike.wordpress.c...-the-storm-campaign-can-expect-in-the-future/)

I think he and @Bruce Choate are talking hogwash and just want to bully me and others to believe the specs on the IGG website, instead I have been abused, insulted, banned told I am spreading lies, deception and mistruths - all my views pretty much accord with yours in your most recent post. But no doubt you or @George S. won't get the accusations of being a paid troll and (ROFL) being paid by a major ebike manufacturer to damage the campaign!!!

Stay well.
 
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