@biknut, the * next to the 5o mile range figure has not been recently added, and added even more recently has been a reference to *pedal assist. Sondors has been quoted as saying the bike - which one because this bike is not the 45lbs, direct drive, 380w, hydraulic brake version ridden by Chris Davies of Slashgear - has nearer 30, or nearer 20 mile range. Yes with pedal assist no doubt. The 90 minute charge to full capacity will defy science, more like 4-6 hours, the bike at the demo day weighed 59 lbs according to Court. I really want this to be a reality, but with shifting claims and misleading figures my confidence is zilch.
Say Hello To Storm
- Thread starter biknut
- Start date
@biknut - posted today on the Storm E-Bike is the extract below, I understand it was written by you and I respect your perspective. I have opened a thread detailing the switch from 45 lbs bike to 59Ibs, from direct drive to geared motor, from 380W motor to 350W, from hydraulic brakes to cabled, from in-house production of parts to sourcing parts that are readily available. I dispute entirely that the battery will have a full charge in 90 minutes or a usable range of 50 miles with pedal assist. I am not a guilter or a hater, but have been banned from posting questions on the Storm E-Bike FB page because of me concerns - they are the right questions to be asking IMHO. I am using my knowledge and commercial nous to raise grave concerns. With your experience and your professional opinion do you really believe that the changes above, if the words are correctly attributed to you, are "fine tune corrections to specifications on the website?" When considering that question please consider that this bike has supposedly been 12 months in the planning and now within three weeks everything has changed!!!
A well written post by Phillip H. in the "Sondors Storm Owners" Facebook Group.
"I feel good today Storm group. I've very confidant Storm Sondors is going to succeed in his plans to revolutionize eBiking in America. My confidence has been boosted, and inspired by investigations by members our group, who I trust more then anyone else. Members that were on site attending the demo day ride on their behalf, and ours. Because of their efforts we have trusted inteligencia that is beyond what is known on the internet at large.
Joe Micalizzi's live stream was priceless to us, and provided information far beyond our expectations. By a lucky accident from Joe's 20 minute test stream we learned that Storm had a professional film crew, with a city permit on site that day. One of our local group members Bruce Choate, who was in attendance, found out that the film crew was in fact there for the purpose of filming for a future advertising campaign, and informed us that members of our group were later interviewed on camera for their impressions. This is very revealing inside information for a couple of reasons. One, because Storm never has publicly mentioned they were there, and two, because since no one knows, we can assume it's genuine because otherwise the thousands of dollars it cost was wasted for nothing.
Bruce Choate also proved with a magnet the frame is steel just like claimed on the website, and the alloy parts are in fact alloy. He weighed the bike at 58.5 lbs on camera, ending any further speculation about the bikes weight. Trust me, 58.5 lbs is not heavy for an eBike. A Stromer ST1 weighs 62 lbs. My Stealth eBike weighs 116 lb. The critics, and shills seem to think the difference between 45, and 58 lb is somehow significant, but people in the know just shrug their shoulders.
In addition to everything else we learned from the live stream, there's the moves the campaign has made in response to allegations that Strom can't possibly deliver this bike on time, or even at this price. Storm's team has made fine tune corrections to specifications on the website, that I consider insignificant, but shills pointed to, as proof of deception. I guess if you have little experience with eBikes you could have made some minor incorrect assumptions, but I understood the specifications from day one. Most of the inconsistencies after corrected, showed the bike was even better. Like a geared motor, instead of direct drive as was first listed. For this bike geared is much better, because it offers more torque. It was apparent from the start to the educated eye, that we were looking at a geared motor all along. Why would Strom try to purposely deceive us into thinking his bike is less good than it is? He said right from the start the bike we're going to get is exactly like the one in the high def pictures on the website, and the very same as the demo bike. Everyone to a man, and woman, loved the demo bike.
I know it's hard to separate fact from fiction, especially when you don't have a lot of experience, and are new to eBikes, but you need to understand, Storm is turning an entrenched industry on it's ear, and they're not going down without a fight. There's an orchestrated effort underway to maintain their stranglehold on high prices, by slander, and innuendo. If they had any real proof, they would have presented it by now. Let this knowledge help calm your fears.
And in case you're thinking I'm somehow a shill connected with Storm, you can forget that right now. My huge investment in this endeavor is exactly one bike $500 bike. I'm a life long biknut, and proud to say that in the EBR review of the demo day, when Court turned to face the camera at 2:15 and gave a shout out to biknut, I'm the biknut, and my online history is an open book. I hope and pray this goes well just like everyone else, and I have a higher level of confidence it will, because of our efforts, and everything Storm's team has done."
A well written post by Phillip H. in the "Sondors Storm Owners" Facebook Group.
"I feel good today Storm group. I've very confidant Storm Sondors is going to succeed in his plans to revolutionize eBiking in America. My confidence has been boosted, and inspired by investigations by members our group, who I trust more then anyone else. Members that were on site attending the demo day ride on their behalf, and ours. Because of their efforts we have trusted inteligencia that is beyond what is known on the internet at large.
Joe Micalizzi's live stream was priceless to us, and provided information far beyond our expectations. By a lucky accident from Joe's 20 minute test stream we learned that Storm had a professional film crew, with a city permit on site that day. One of our local group members Bruce Choate, who was in attendance, found out that the film crew was in fact there for the purpose of filming for a future advertising campaign, and informed us that members of our group were later interviewed on camera for their impressions. This is very revealing inside information for a couple of reasons. One, because Storm never has publicly mentioned they were there, and two, because since no one knows, we can assume it's genuine because otherwise the thousands of dollars it cost was wasted for nothing.
Bruce Choate also proved with a magnet the frame is steel just like claimed on the website, and the alloy parts are in fact alloy. He weighed the bike at 58.5 lbs on camera, ending any further speculation about the bikes weight. Trust me, 58.5 lbs is not heavy for an eBike. A Stromer ST1 weighs 62 lbs. My Stealth eBike weighs 116 lb. The critics, and shills seem to think the difference between 45, and 58 lb is somehow significant, but people in the know just shrug their shoulders.
In addition to everything else we learned from the live stream, there's the moves the campaign has made in response to allegations that Strom can't possibly deliver this bike on time, or even at this price. Storm's team has made fine tune corrections to specifications on the website, that I consider insignificant, but shills pointed to, as proof of deception. I guess if you have little experience with eBikes you could have made some minor incorrect assumptions, but I understood the specifications from day one. Most of the inconsistencies after corrected, showed the bike was even better. Like a geared motor, instead of direct drive as was first listed. For this bike geared is much better, because it offers more torque. It was apparent from the start to the educated eye, that we were looking at a geared motor all along. Why would Strom try to purposely deceive us into thinking his bike is less good than it is? He said right from the start the bike we're going to get is exactly like the one in the high def pictures on the website, and the very same as the demo bike. Everyone to a man, and woman, loved the demo bike.
I know it's hard to separate fact from fiction, especially when you don't have a lot of experience, and are new to eBikes, but you need to understand, Storm is turning an entrenched industry on it's ear, and they're not going down without a fight. There's an orchestrated effort underway to maintain their stranglehold on high prices, by slander, and innuendo. If they had any real proof, they would have presented it by now. Let this knowledge help calm your fears.
And in case you're thinking I'm somehow a shill connected with Storm, you can forget that right now. My huge investment in this endeavor is exactly one bike $500 bike. I'm a life long biknut, and proud to say that in the EBR review of the demo day, when Court turned to face the camera at 2:15 and gave a shout out to biknut, I'm the biknut, and my online history is an open book. I hope and pray this goes well just like everyone else, and I have a higher level of confidence it will, because of our efforts, and everything Storm's team has done."
wa5
Well-Known Member
I saw that post also, and I think you raise some quite reasonable questions EULITTLB. I'm a long way from being an expert, but a 15-20 percent increase in weight is not a small change (just because it was expected, still doesn't make it acceptable). almost everything on the bike has been talked up and specced down ... save for the gear drive hub.. which does go some way towards making up for other exaggerations.. ..
Bikenut, I really think your behaviour would label you a "shill" before anybody else here.. Your words Phil, not mine...
when this bike gets to its' eventual RRP of $1299, how will it compare to the Sand Shark?
Bikenut, I really think your behaviour would label you a "shill" before anybody else here.. Your words Phil, not mine...
when this bike gets to its' eventual RRP of $1299, how will it compare to the Sand Shark?
Cheers wa5 - 45 lbs to 59 lbs is significant, nearly 33% increase - significant because no numpty can make that mistake when designing a bike for 12 months and taking it to market expecting people to part with their hard-earned and not to feel cheated when the specs change within less than three weeks........ but also because of the extra weight the bike has to push along, impacting on range and the ease of pedalling - that is 5.5 kgs!! Now that Storm is trying to convince other would-be backers with Biknuts article, there will be some mightily peeved people if he doesn't pull something out of the bag here...... pledges are stalling because people realise they are not buying anything!!....... and if my reputation in a world I love came to rest on pretty much supporting a very high-risk project which even I can raise doubts about, then I would have second thoughts; according to the article above it appears absolutely fine to take peoples money on the strength of stated specs and then change them as you wish so much so that it doesn't resemble the initial proposal. Where else in the word could you get away with this? @biknut - Do you believe the total charge time for the battery with a 50 mile pedal assist (now) range is 90 minute, if so why has no other bike manufacturer offered the same?
wa5
Well-Known Member
I think He's trying to be a little humorous EULITTLB. We aren't being sceptical, just for the hell of it, what would we have to gain by doing so? I think that each of us who are raising (entirely reasonable) questions, are doing so because we can smell a rat (or think we can).
Bikenut, in your f/b text you seem to say that all of us that have questions about Storm, are "shills" (IE plants by those with an interest in the industry), Neither you nor I can easily prove we are not speaking for somebody else.. Checkmate.
Funny thing though, I don't think I have mentioned any other brand or recommended that anybody purchase anything. and all you have done is act as a Sondors apologist on this thread...
(EDIT, I actually did mention / ask about the sand shark that Court reviewed)
Bikenut, in your f/b text you seem to say that all of us that have questions about Storm, are "shills" (IE plants by those with an interest in the industry), Neither you nor I can easily prove we are not speaking for somebody else.. Checkmate.
Funny thing though, I don't think I have mentioned any other brand or recommended that anybody purchase anything. and all you have done is act as a Sondors apologist on this thread...
(EDIT, I actually did mention / ask about the sand shark that Court reviewed)
Hmmm, referring to an Englishman living in.......... England as a cockroach for asking simple questions isn't my idea of humour but let's move on, no harm done. I have been banned, as have others, from the a Storm FB page for seeking clarity on a few points, even tried to contact Sondors about importing in bulk to the UK......... But there was nowhere to send my message too! If Sondors, and that is a very big IF, manages to satisfy 5000 customers with a bike that holds to its claim of a 90 minute battery charge time with 50 miles range (with pedal assist now) and there is nothing underhand with the shipping charges and taxes, battery being sent separately or the cost being excluded and manages to hit the delivery schedules then I will be the first to say WELL DONE. There are too many questions unanswered though, and bein purposely excluded from the Storm FB page tells me I was asking the right questions!
PowerMe
Well-Known Member
Is it really a failure though if it takes, say, 3 hrs to fully charge that battery? I mean that's typical for these kinds of batteries, yes? And let's say the range one gets is really more like 30 mi on a charge, with active pedaling? Yes, a big drop from what was published, but also typical for eBikes that don't have massive batteries or mid-drives, right?. In other words, if this bike is just an average basic eBike in the end, but that eBike was procured for $500 - $600 by the first set of funders, and they actually get the bike and it actually works, isn't that okay too?
If I was a contributor then I would be happy to get anything tbh. But this is the point I have been making all along, everything is exaggerated to the point of being silly - why not say the battery charges in 60 mins and has a range of 100 miles, but let's ignore the spec and determine for ourselves what is really possible? The verbiage about being committed to providing an affordable ebike too is ridiculous. Already the price inc shipping is $900 for US purchasers, unsure of whether this price includes sales tax or duties. I would have felt far more comfortable if the quoted performance figures had been realistic and the spec did not change completely in the space of three weeks personally.
biknut
Active Member
It doesn't even have to be that good to make me happy. I'd say full charge in 3 hours, or half charge in 1 1/2 hour would be realistic. At my local eBike shop they claim most of the Pedego's get about 20 mile range, but I don't how much pedaling they're talking about, I assume not much. The least expensive one is about $1,600. I think the Strom will get at least that range.
@biknut, and you are not concerned that the quoted figure is 90 mins charging to full capacity, or the range is stated as 50 miles, now with pedal assist? Why make this up? It is to get people to part with cash, nobody will receive anything like they have pledged for, unless the spec accurately reflects what was being promoted in the first instance. These aren't subtle changes of fine-tuning....
Charge time depends a lot on how discharged the battery is when you put it on the charger. It's not good for battery life to run the battery down all the way every charge.
... Ok now I understand, like a 50 mile range with pedal assist is dependent on if you have travelled 35 miles already?
... Ok now I understand, like a 50 mile range with pedal assist is dependent on if you have travelled 35 miles already?
Gus
Active Member
Bingo!
Biknut is correct that most that bought thing are basically clueless when it comes to ebikes. Many of the comments on the campaign and Facebook pages are clearly from those that don't have a clue what they are getting and if it has two wheels and is yellow they will probably be ecstatic when it arrives. I'm of the opinion at this point, let people enjoy the anticipation of what they bought. Let their imagination get filled with whatever they want. For the next few months it's going to be like waiting for Christmas for a lot of really excited people. It may be great to some. It may be a lump of coal to others.
In the end, it's the buyers own fault if they did not do their homework prior to giving them money. Storm could say the bike could fly and it's still OK based on the terms of how crowd funding works. The hate and negativity that this campaign is receiving is Storm/Agency 2.0's own fault. If they would have been honest and realistic about what this bike can do up front, there would not be all this screaming from people that know better that they are full of crap. They set the stage for what the expected bike performance will be. Now we all just sit back and see if they can deliver something that meets those expectations.
wa5
Well-Known Member
Honestly, If I had given money to this campaign and received a solid reliable bike that ran for 15 miles at 15mph. I'd be fairly happy. But that still does not excuse what I will politely call "exaggeration"... nor does saying "everybody else does it"...
Any item that is "locked in" for production in less than two months, should have all its major specifications locked in, save for graphics / colour which can be changed at short notice.. Bikenut, surely you can see why some of these 11th hour alterations are ringing alarm bells?
Range is a bit more difficult, pedal assist is pretty subjective.. I'm sure Lance Armstrong is going to get more miles than I am...
Really I think the way range is tested needs to change.
there needs to be two measurements "feet off pedals" (obviously with light assist where required) and full pedal assist. For this too work, you would need to test all bikes over the same course and for consistency, the same rider.. Poor Old Court would never see his wife again lol.
Any item that is "locked in" for production in less than two months, should have all its major specifications locked in, save for graphics / colour which can be changed at short notice.. Bikenut, surely you can see why some of these 11th hour alterations are ringing alarm bells?
Range is a bit more difficult, pedal assist is pretty subjective.. I'm sure Lance Armstrong is going to get more miles than I am...
Really I think the way range is tested needs to change.
there needs to be two measurements "feet off pedals" (obviously with light assist where required) and full pedal assist. For this too work, you would need to test all bikes over the same course and for consistency, the same rider.. Poor Old Court would never see his wife again lol.
PowerMe
Well-Known Member
Frankly no one can be seen as "winning" until the outcome of this campaign is all done, with the very last bike delivered, and the reviews. It's like saying the first 3 plays of a football game are all you need to see to determine which team will win the game. Right now it's a bunch of posturing on both sides. I really dislike hype. The bike will do something. I mean, it's a bike. It can be ridden. Unless what's delivered is a bunch of little parts in a box, it should be okay. Worth the hype? Nothing is worth the hype in the end. It will be what it will be.
The product itself is getting mixed with the emotional upheaval about the business issues surrounding the campaign. The bike could be nice or it could be 'meh.' Or it could even be great for what it is. So that's one scale. The business issues, how this is coming together in the marketplace, how the founders are going to manage the complexities they face in bringing this product to their 'funders' is taking up almost more mindspace, and that's different. I doubt whether anyone who threw their money on the line cares what happens to the "business" as long as they get their bike(s) within a reasonable timeframe and those bikes then work. Whether Storm goes on to make more products, who knows. 99% of the people won't care. So all this talk about Storm and what Storm is going to do to solve problem A, B, C, Pffft. Who cares aside from Storm and the people who have to solve those issues. These are not investors in a business, they are 'funders' of a promise of 1 product and 1 product only. They want their 1 product and if the "business" then goes belly up or never goes further after getting their product, they won't care, as long as that product works.
The product itself is getting mixed with the emotional upheaval about the business issues surrounding the campaign. The bike could be nice or it could be 'meh.' Or it could even be great for what it is. So that's one scale. The business issues, how this is coming together in the marketplace, how the founders are going to manage the complexities they face in bringing this product to their 'funders' is taking up almost more mindspace, and that's different. I doubt whether anyone who threw their money on the line cares what happens to the "business" as long as they get their bike(s) within a reasonable timeframe and those bikes then work. Whether Storm goes on to make more products, who knows. 99% of the people won't care. So all this talk about Storm and what Storm is going to do to solve problem A, B, C, Pffft. Who cares aside from Storm and the people who have to solve those issues. These are not investors in a business, they are 'funders' of a promise of 1 product and 1 product only. They want their 1 product and if the "business" then goes belly up or never goes further after getting their product, they won't care, as long as that product works.
Ann M.
Well-Known Member
@biknut, if Storm didn't keep changing specs at the last minute, we might agree with you; however, many people bought into the Indiegogo campaign based on a false set of specs. When I started in this industry 14+ years ago, all of the Chinese manufacturers exaggerated power & range. Groups like the LEVA and the European ExtraEnergy and others work hard to improve the legitimacy of the Ebike industry through rigorous testing and public reporting of the results. For Storm, the pressure from outside observers has forced him to be more honest about his product. What his real intentions are for doing the campaign may come out over time, but you don't just go out there and do an ebike with no thought about how you're going to handle the response to that bike. You can hear him on Court's EBR video say that he hadn't really planned on being an ebike company, but now he is. Whether he has another product or not, he does have a responsibility to those who invested in this bike. You can't just 'wing it' So what were Storm and Agency 2.0 planning if they hadn't figured in the possibility of success? Do you think Agency 2.0 is doing this for free? This isn't a powerful high tech ebike, but that doesn't mean you get to be hazy about exactly what it is. Make the bike, ship the bike, support the bike and we're all ok.
I hope 4999 other contributors share your approach. Seems very strange to me that a bike is 12 months in development and goes from 45lbs to nearly 60 lbs, spec gets changed wildly in the space of three weeks and you casually accept these changes having pledged your money without a hint of concern. There is exaggeration, and just downright deception and knowingly misleading claims.
@biknut this forum has two trolls now right? And who might they be? If you are referring to myself and wa5 then shame on you - I joined this forum principally because of Courts' input on what was generously called a demo day and the opportunity to share the concerns I too had after being blocked from the Storm FB page. You might like to think this is your forum and you are holier than thou whose word is final, I am interested in your views and those of others too - you will lose whatever credibility and respect you have though if this blows up in your face and Storm deliver a pos in a haphazard time frame, since some people who do not research the subject and the silly exaggerated claims will be swayed to buy on your words that Storm is using to promote his idea which plainly isn't very well thought out at all
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