Say Hello To Storm

[EULITTLB]

Frankly no one can be seen as "winning" until the outcome of this campaign is all done, with the very last bike delivered, and the reviews. It's like saying the first 3 plays of a football game are all you need to see to determine which team will win the game. Right now it's a bunch of posturing on both sides. I really dislike hype. The bike will do something. I mean, it's a bike. It can be ridden. Unless what's delivered is a bunch of little parts in a box, it should be okay. Worth the hype? Nothing is worth the hype in the end. It will be what it will be.

The product itself is getting mixed with the emotional upheaval about the business issues surrounding the campaign. The bike could be nice or it could be 'meh.' Or it could even be great for what it is. So that's one scale. The business issues, how this is coming together in the marketplace, how the founders are going to manage the complexities they face in bringing this product to their 'funders' is taking up almost more mindspace, and that's different. I doubt whether anyone who threw their money on the line cares what happens to the "business" as long as they get their bike(s) within a reasonable timeframe and those bikes then work. Whether Storm goes on to make more products, who knows. 99% of the people won't care. So all this talk about Storm and what Storm is going to do to solve problem A, B, C, Pffft. Who cares aside from Storm and the people who have to solve those issues. These are not investors in a business, they are 'funders' of a promise of 1 product and 1 product only. They want their 1 product and if the "business" then goes belly up or never goes further after getting their product, they won't care, as long as that product works.

Transparency and honesty goes far...... Sondors has little history to rely upon. The campaign has been built on hype and little else, would so many people have contributed cash on the basis of "we think we can build an ebike quite cheaply if we get enough money together and then take a flight to China and order in quantity? We don't know the specs or performance that this cheap ebike will have, but it will retail eventually for $1300 but you can have it now for $500?"

I think not.

Instead we have a fraudulent approach of stating performance and specs which were never credible, never tested, could never be realised with current battery technology at that price.

I agree that a relatively small run of bikes in the first instance would have served all two of team Sondors well to then expand it to a wider market, but now it is frankly unmanageable. There is one bike, one bike only - see how many more demo days there are and if the one bike can be professionally assessed over the coming weeks. Sondors says that this is a production model, before alleging that he is downright lying I am unsure if he is is claiming that this bike has the spec of those that will be delivered - shipping , batteries and duties is another issue entirely - or is one produced by the factory unknown.

 

[EULITTLB]

Note the comments beneath the article from ebike expert -http://(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

 

[PowerMe]

Isn't the bike itself already a production model of an Alibaba bike? So what's being added is basically an ebike kit to what is an existing Alibaba bike.

 

[EULITTLB]

Yes I would agree, so much for the in-house production of parts - I just cannot see even with economies of scale how the kit and the 90 minute charge battery with battery assist can be made and then added to the bike for $499; they have a load of bikes to deliver at a loss if they intend doing so - who will buy the bike at $599+ or even the SRP of $1299 approx?

 

[PowerMe]

But why worry about Storm's ability to make a profit or what future retail prices will be unless you've invested money in the company? Hopefully crowdfunding people realize or at least learn later that they aren't purchasing anything but a potential. Is there a way to get your money back right now if one is having buyer's remorse or if the product one expects is changing specs as the campaign goes?

Some of us had this conversation about these types of ventures, at the time Kickstarter was being discussed.

Speaking of people who will put money down for anything... you may not remember this, but back in the 70's millions of people purchased a "pet rock." It was a rock marketed as a "pet." No, not high tech, but still. A friggin' rock! People will buy anything is the moral of the story.

 

[EULITTLB]

Good question, I thought of bringing 100 of these into the UK, with the lower powered motor and speed limiter for a commercial venture, but then I couldn't get a response and never did, had nowhere to send the enquiry to other than indiegogo if I recall. Things just didn't add up and the more I looked into this and noted the changing claims my concerns grew - frankly I do not care if Sondors makes a profit at all, just so long as people get what is stated on the website, which they will not - I believe that the campaign is totally misleading, is not honest and transparent, and there will be another sting in the tail for contributors - either tax, duties, battery cost, extra cost for shipping the battery - in addition to pants performance and a 4-6 hour charge time. I do not believe anything can be done with refunds but hey over to Sondors, where refunds will be considered on an individual basis because they understand that sometime "life happens."

 

[PowerMe]

Okay, so:

Issue #1: you want to import some ebikes of lower cost into the UK. Does it require that you go through Storm to create your own business and import some eBikes? I don't think it does. You don't need Storm to create your own little venture. Other small companies or individuals manage to do business with China without needing Storm Sonders.

Issue #2: Have you plopped down the $500 for this bike?

- If no, then why do you care what happens to this particular campaign? Storm is not going to ruin an entire industry.
- If yes, then you should care about 1 thing only: getting YOUR ebike.
​

All the angst concerning how Storm will handle multiple business and tax issues blah blah blah only needs to concern Storm & whoever else is on the hook (Agency 2.0).

The individual funder only needs to be concerned they

1. Get their eBike
2. The eBike works
3. They don't have to shell out more $$$ in order to receive the eBike

 

[EULITTLB]

Perhaps I do not need to rely on Storm, but I don't like nearly being taken for a sucker and want to raise awareness of the manner in which this high-risk campaign is being run, with ridiculous claims and changing specs all of the time - big announcement from Storm was the optional non-refundable perk insurance - wtf?!!? Indiegogo's trust and verification dept or whatever have verified the manufacturing viability etc of the project (whatever that means) so what are we doing discussing insurance for a product that might never materialise? And at $120 insurance, if that is a reflection of the risk involved, there is a high probability that nothing will. I want people to wake up and smell the cheese, just as many have and have voiced their concern on forums like I am doing now, sharing observations with other users.

 

[EULITTLB]

Powerme, the tax/duties/sales tax issues are part of the concern about how well this has all been thought through - do you feel if I smell a scam and that things do not add up then I should desist from commenting because I haven't been taken in by it? If I know of an ebay scam should it be no business of mine letting anyone else know unless I have fallen for it already? I had a woman with a dog pleading with me for money for petrol at a Services in the UK, nobody would give her any money - I thought it was worth taking the risk helping her out. I went and got some food, pulled into the petrol station and told them it was bang out of order them not helping this lady - they looked at me quizzically - yes I was taken for a sucker, so I phoned the Services Manager and alerted them and they put up signs to warn people for the future. This is no different IMHO

 

[wa5]

Look at this thread. We have 2 trolls now, even though this forum is very small. What that means is Strom is winning.

Guessing one of those would be me?

I was very up front in saying I found this forum through Courts reviews. specifically his talk on the Storm and then his test of the sand viper... was my second post on this very thread.

I showed up on this forum at the same time as the Storm, BECAUSE I WAS INTERESTED IN THE STORM.. and I had questions.. Doubt I'd be welcome on the Storm owners facebook page, and wouldn't really want to visit anyway.. after reading your words on the Storm f/b page I suspect it is full of naught but toadying sycophants.

Same EULITTLEB, I'm the kind of bloke who will stop and remove a hazard from the road, because, it might hurt or kill somebody else.. Same with Ebay type scams, if I see a perfect 428 66 Galaxie XL for sale by a 0 feedback seller for $5000, I know its a scam and report it.. because I wouldn't like to see somebody lose their hard earned dough..

To paraphrase Dune "an animal will bight its own leg off to escape a trap.. a human being will wait to kill the hunter to save other humans"..

The "I'm all right, screw you jack" attitude doesn't wash with me and every decent person should be looking out for their fellows.

If that means raising concerns about possible issues, then so be it. I don't want to see anybody lose out over this deal and (you can choose to believe it or not Bikenut) that includes Storm Sondors

 

[biknut]

A typical commonality of the trolls is they like to write 900 word essays over and over in an effort the drown out all positive conversation.

 

[EULITTLB]

What a disgusting post, and if you want to deter people from going on forums and discussing the flaws in the Storm scam, whilst covering your own backside then this is wrong. You are the only likely paid troll, with your tongue so far up Sondors backside it is laughable - you are not independent at all - I won't rise to your bait any more, please just ignore my posts, hope you enjoy your new bike if you actually get anything. @biknut, either present evidence that I am a paid troll or STFU.

You talk of 7000 Storm Sales - are you a fool? Nobody has bought anything - fact. Storm have not sold anything - fact. You have pledged money to an idea only on a non-refundable basis whatever happens. YOU HAVE NOT BOUGHT ANYTHING AND NEITHER HAVE SEVEN THOUSAND OTHER PEOPLE.

 

[EULITTLB]

PowerMe, Don't waste you time on these paid Trolls. It's obvious to everyone why they're here. They claim to be trying to save us from unscrupulous sellers, but that's the talking point of all the trolls. They have no interest in this forum beyond trying to hurt Storm sales, but they've already lost that battle, with over 7000 bikes sold already. They'll be gone soon enough. There's only a little over a week left in Storm's campaign, and after that they have no purpose.

Storm have not sold anything, you have not bought anything - FACT.

Sorry not to toe-the-line and be positive but try to dispute what I have written above whilst keeping a straight face.

 

[pxpaulx]

A typical commonality of the trolls is they like to write 900 word essays over and over in an effort the drown out all positive conversation.

Typical fanboy comments like to dispense reasonable questions and valid arguments with brief dismissive statements.

What is your point?

BTW, the sale of a good requires both payment and delivery, nothing has been sold yet.

Everyone needs to chill out a bit in this thread. Actually nevermind, I'll go pop some more popcorn.

 

[EULITTLB]

pxpaulx, appreciate your comment, but to be accused of being a paid troll is totally out-of-order - I have asked sensible questions and discussed points on a level basis with other members, and my skepticism is shared across the board by other members, people in the industry, forum members etc. I'll calm down and go out for the night, I am UK based, how the hell can I be a paid troll by someone in the US Bike industry?

 

[PowerMe]

Perhaps I do not need to rely on Storm, but I don't like nearly being taken for a sucker and want to raise awareness of the manner in which this high-risk campaign is being run, with ridiculous claims and changing specs all of the time - big announcement from Storm was the optional non-refundable perk insurance - wtf?!!? Indiegogo's trust and verification dept or whatever have verified the manufacturing viability etc of the project (whatever that means) so what are we doing discussing insurance for a product that might never materialise? And at $120 insurance, if that is a reflection of the risk involved, there is a high probability that nothing will. I want people to wake up and smell the cheese, just as many have and have voiced their concern on forums like I am doing now, sharing observations with other users.

I think you'll need to get in touch with Indiegogo management about your concerns, as this campaign is being hosted on their platform, and I would assume they are liable in some way. What course of action is recommended? Should they shut the whole thing down and send back everyone's 'contribution'? Allow people to get refunds if they want out now? I know you want to bring awareness of this to the fore and speak out about what seems like funny business going on and keep people from being taken. It's useful to have a specific set of actions in mind to help rectify a problem. What would be best at this point?

 

[wa5]

Loosen the aluminium Foil around your head Bikennut, I think its cutting blood flow to your "brain"..

I actually found your groveling sickly post to Sondors a little concerning. usually the sort of one eyed total devotion you are showing to a push bike and its' Creator, is only displayed by those who have been hoodwinked by a charismatic cult leader. you don't live anywhere near Waco do you?

Paid to express my opinion? I quit my last job because they were paying me but didn't want my opinion If you can point me towards an employer who will pay me for my valuable thoughts Bikenut, please.. let me know. (just so you don't lose any sleep mate, I do have another job lined up.. just taking a little me time)

Think on this (if you're able).. by the time I showed up on this forum, Sondors was already near 5000 sales. about 4500 more than his wildest dreams.. if I, or anybody else were here to talk down his sales and try to ruin him.. wouldn't we have been here way earlier? we really missed the boat on that one.. Storm has sold 25 times what he wanted to, I couldn't ruin him if I tried..

The person who really looks like an apologist for big business, is you bikenut..

Had the bike been for sale on Ebay, with the safety provided by Paypal, I'd already own one..

 

[EULITTLB]

I think you'll need to get in touch with Indiegogo management about your concerns, as this campaign is being hosted on their platform, and I would assume they are liable in some way. What course of action is recommended? Should they shut the whole thing down and send back everyone's 'contribution'? Allow people to get refunds if they want out now? I know you want to bring awareness of this to the fore and speak out about what seems like funny business going on and keep people from being taken. It's useful to have a specific set of actions in mind to help rectify a problem. What would be best at this point?

I'll have a think on this if I may Powerme.

What I would encourage is transparency and honesty at all stages to enable this to happen with a modicum of success.

1) Declaration that the overwhelming response (well done) has taken them by surprise and in order to fulfil the demand and ensure a quality ENTRY-LEVEL product then structures need to be put in place to manage the orders, shipping and warranty issues arising. To in effect buy time, with apologies to those who have pledged.

2) Release honest performance figures and a final specification for the bike

3) Release the Shipping arrangements (is insurance included), who the battery is going to be shipped separately and whether the price of it is included in the pledge fee.

4) Identify reasonably likely manufacturing schedules and delivery schedules thereafter to the USA and the rest of the world.

5) Allay any concerns regarding taxes/duties and battery certification/liability with an undertaking that these things have been looked into and all is in order.

6) Release the final SRP of the bike and availability at that price from a given date, when doubters can get their hands on one.

All in no particular order.

I'll give it some more thought. The campaign needs to gain credibility and answer the concerns of others - not by banning people from forums so they cannot ask reasonable questions.

 

[pxpaulx]

pxpaulx, appreciate your comment, but to be accused of being a paid troll is totally out-of-order - I have asked sensible questions and discussed points on a level basis with other members, and my skepticism is shared across the board by other members, people in the industry, forum members etc. I'll calm down and go out for the night, I am UK based, how the hell can I be a paid troll by someone in the US Bike industry?

i certainly understamd you are upset! At this point it is all just fuel for Biknut's raging fire - glad there is a sub-forum so concerns can be brought up without all the baggage of this thread. My comment was mostly directed to him, as he is the only one being truly inflammatory in here.

 

[EULITTLB]

Pxpaulx, what do you make of the initial suggestions I was invited to come up with by powerme? Do you think such actions would give Sondors camapign more credibility? Now that he has $3.5 million less the fees of indiegogo, a not insignificant $140k, less the ad agency design fees, there has to be some professional structure to this project rather than just making it up as he goes along, if the contributors are to get back anything for their $ surely? And whilst we are on the subject for every $499 pledged, that is $479.04 for bike parts if we include a deduction for indiegogo' fees. That doesn't appear to be a lot of expenditure for cost of goods sold for a bike whose true market value, we are told, is $1299