Review: New LMT'D - new owner's perspective

[GenXrider]

Is this also new? Or is it just my imagination?

"Special production for the maximum allowable speed and performance before entering motorcycle territory."

I checked an archived page from April, and that was in the description then.

I think the LCD naming isn't really a loss of functionality. The 700 previously did not say "programmable" despite having the LCD display which shows programmable assist level power settings.

 

[Lumpydog]

For those that have been following the new Ride1Up LMT'D and this thread, this is a quick but important update. I received a new controller from Ride1Up today - with updated software that "changes the way the torque sensor integrates with the motor". I installed the new controller tonight and went for a brief ride (it was dark/late). Result: This feels like a completely different bike.

If you've been following this thread, I spent time figuring out work-arounds to remove the choppy/stabby/on-off motor experience and thought I had the bike dialed in to where it was working acceptably. Having gone for a spin with the new controller/updated software - I'm left wondering if the 1.0 version of the LMT'D shipped with a controller that had the "default" controller software - because the difference is night/day.

With the new controller and updated software, the motor's assist is constant and level to the torque I input. No more motor on/off with the bike lurching forward followed by motor cut-out. I tried slow... creeping along with a little torque and the motor joined in with tiny motor assist. I added a little more pedal pressure and the motor added a little more assist. I pushed harder and the motor worked harder. The big difference - the motor never turned off/on and the bike didn't jump/lurch - if I pedaled, the motor was on constantly but more measured in assistance - equal to the pedal pressure/torque I put in. Before, on the flats, the "1.0 controller" had the motor cut in/out constantly and you had to dial this in with the pedal assist to level-out the jumpiness - that was my fix. The new controller provides consistent motor assist - no more on/off, in any PAS level. BIG, big difference.

I'll post more detail after I have the chance to ride a bit more and get a better sense for how the new software works across more terrain. Swapping the controller out was not simple and I'll post steps/pictures. Also - if you have a new LMT'D on the way (Aug 2020 or later delivery), my understanding from reading Ride1Up's FB posts is that this new software is standard/included - as I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread.

I'm glad I stuck with the bike.

 

[wings02]

I give you credit Lumpydog for sticking it out. I couldn't get comfortable with the way the torque sensor was performing on my Limited. When I confronted RIDE1UP about this, and expressing my concerns that the initial buyers are the ones that are going to be disappointed, they assured me that they are not going to make any changes moving forward because they feel that is how the torque sensor system is suppose to perform. The following is the reply I received from Ride1Up in response to my email. It has been posted earlier in these threads.

"The torque sensor isn't a problem that we are working on any solution for. This is the nature of the BB torque sensor equipped with a 100nm hub motor. With mid-drives the acceleration is going to feel different naturally, and with cadence+troque combo bikes it's going to feel different as well. This is a BB torque sensor only ebike. The BB torque sensor is more expensive than the dropout torque sensor (used by companies like juiced for example) and requires less maintenance and is less finicky. However, with a torque only option, it will take some getting used to. It's taken me weeks to get familiar and accustomed to applying the exact amount of power/torque I am looking for. It's definitely a different system, but it's not one that we plan on changing to be honest. It's designed to operate in this way. The only real option to smooth out your motor application w/ a hub motor torque combo is to add a cadence sensor as well. To me, you might as well just use a cadence sensor only at that point. I've ridden the 'torque+cadence' combos a bit, but they operate mostly like a cadence sensor.
Hope this explains the setup a little. We will post a pro con of each model ASAP to our site, to assist in informing buyers of what they are getting into before ordering."

I've only complimented Ride1UP in many comments regarding customer service, return policies, and promptly addressing questions. This situation was not handled properly on their part. For those of you that have purchased the Limited model, you should give a shout out to Lumpydog. He has been instrumental in getting Ride1Up to address the torque sensor problem especially after seeing the response I received from them that I listed above.

 

[GenXrider]

Strange. They earlier stated, "...it's not one that we plan on changing to be honest. It's designed to operate in this way." And now they suddenly have a fix this quickly?

https://electricbikereview.com/foru...lmtd-new-owners-perspective.35049/post-305716

@Lumpydog Did you get a new LCD as well or still using the older model?

 

[Lumpydog]

@Lumpydog[/USER] Did you get a new LCD as well or still using the older model?

GenXrider - good question. Short answer: I’m using my original 500C LCD.

Longer answer: I saw your post about how R1Up had switched over the LMT’D display from the 500C to the KD218 model for the next (2.0) batch of LMT’Ds. I noticed that this display provided a few additional advanced settings Including one that allowed the user to change the current limit - which effects the power/torque while accelerating - by changing the amps.

My thinking: The 1.0 LMT’D‘s introduction of the motor/assist, when it kicked in, was too powerful and it would basically overrun the human torque input to the sensor, causing the motor to cut back out. So I ordered the KD218 display with the intention of dialing back the current limit... To Ride1Up’s credit, they (Kevin) reached out and asked why I wanted the KD218 if I had a LMT’D (it turns out the KD218s they currently sell have a different connector style that works with the 700 and 500 only). So I explained what I was trying to accomplish and I was really surprised when he offered to send ”a replacement internal controller with our updated software. We changed how the torque sensor integrates with the motor.“

So it looks like Ride1Up changed their position a bit and have a solution for those that are not happy with the 1.0 torque sensor setup. I’ll be honest - I did essentially pay for this fix as I had ordered the KD218 and Kevin offered to send the controller in it’s place - mentioning that the controller was a little more cost but he would ship it anyway. Given my initial/short trial with the new controller last night, 100% worth it. Completely different riding experience.

I’m not sure how R1Up will respond to others that are interested in the upgraded controller - free or fee...

More to come as I get more miles on the new controller. I’ll put up a separate post on swapping-in the new controller.

 

[cldlhd]

GenXrider - good question. Short answer: I’m using my original 500C LCD.

Longer answer: I saw your post about how R1Up had switched over the LMT’D display from the 500C to the KD218 model for the next (2.0) batch of LMT’Ds. I noticed that this display provided a few additional advanced settings Including one that allowed the user to change the current limit - which effects the power/torque while accelerating - by changing the amps.

My thinking: The 1.0 LMT’D‘s introduction of the motor/assist, when it kicked in, was too powerful and it would basically overrun the human torque input to the sensor, causing the motor to cut back out. So I ordered the KD218 display with the intention of dialing back the current limit... To Ride1Up’s credit, they (Kevin) reached out and asked why I wanted the KD218 if I had a LMT’D (it turns out the KD218s they currently sell have a different connector style that works with the 700 and 500 only). So I explained what I was trying to accomplish and I was really surprised when he offered to send ”a replacement internal controller with our updated software. We changed how the torque sensor integrates with the motor.“

So it looks like Ride1Up changed their position a bit and have a solution for those that are not happy with the 1.0 torque sensor setup. I’ll be honest - I did essentially pay for this fix as I had ordered the KD218 and Kevin offered to send the controller in it’s place - mentioning that the controller was a little more cost but he would ship it anyway. Given my initial/short trial with the new controller last night, 100% worth it. Completely different riding experience.

I’m not sure how R1Up will respond to others that are interested in the upgraded controller - free or fee...

More to come as I get more miles on the new controller. I’ll put up a separate post on swapping-in the new controller.

Personally I think they should probably reach out to all owners and explain the update and offer it. I know that's likely a hassle, and maybe they should wait until my 700 ships , but there are probably others annoyed with the situation like you were that think that's just how it is. While in the subject OTA updates would be great. Or even if you had to plug a laptop into the controller.

 

[Asher]

I give you credit Lumpydog for sticking it out. I couldn't get comfortable with the way the torque sensor was performing on my Limited. When I confronted RIDE1UP about this, and expressing my concerns that the initial buyers are the ones that are going to be disappointed, they assured me that they are not going to make any changes moving forward because they feel that is how the torque sensor system is suppose to perform. The following is the reply I received from Ride1Up in response to my email. It has been posted earlier in these threads.

"The torque sensor isn't a problem that we are working on any solution for. This is the nature of the BB torque sensor equipped with a 100nm hub motor. With mid-drives the acceleration is going to feel different naturally, and with cadence+troque combo bikes it's going to feel different as well. This is a BB torque sensor only ebike. The BB torque sensor is more expensive than the dropout torque sensor (used by companies like juiced for example) and requires less maintenance and is less finicky. However, with a torque only option, it will take some getting used to. It's taken me weeks to get familiar and accustomed to applying the exact amount of power/torque I am looking for. It's definitely a different system, but it's not one that we plan on changing to be honest. It's designed to operate in this way. The only real option to smooth out your motor application w/ a hub motor torque combo is to add a cadence sensor as well. To me, you might as well just use a cadence sensor only at that point. I've ridden the 'torque+cadence' combos a bit, but they operate mostly like a cadence sensor.
Hope this explains the setup a little. We will post a pro con of each model ASAP to our site, to assist in informing buyers of what they are getting into before ordering."

I've only complimented Ride1UP in many comments regarding customer service, return policies, and promptly addressing questions. This situation was not handled properly on their part. For those of you that have purchased the Limited model, you should give a shout out to Lumpydog. He has been instrumental in getting Ride1Up to address the torque sensor problem especially after seeing the response I received from them that I listed above.

Lol wow that is an incredibly short-sighted and borderline condescending approach, "you're pedaling wrong", good thing they made an about face.

I think with this torque sensor squared away, Ride has far and away the best ebike in its class - $2k ish, commuter, removable battery, 750W, plus tires.

 

[wings02]

I’ve been touting how good Ride1UP’s customer service has been even after going through the hassles and expense of re-packing and shipping my “Limited” model bike back to them. The reason for the return was the poorly designed Torque sensor system which they are finally admitting does not function as designed. I assume a good number of customers purchasing the Limited model did so because it offered a torque sensor instead of cadence.
Ride1up has an excellent reputation. Let’s hope they handle this situation correctly.

 

[cldlhd]

I’ve been touting how good Ride1UP’s customer service has been even after going through the hassles and expense of re-packing and shipping my “Limited” model bike back to them. The reason for the return was the poorly designed Torque sensor system which they are finally admitting does not function as designed. I assume a good number of customers purchasing the Limited model did so because it offered a torque sensor instead of cadence.
Ride1up has an excellent reputation. Let’s hope they handle this situation correctly.

sucks that you had to send it back but makes me glad I chose the 700 a coupe of days ago. The main reasons for me was it was cheaper, I liked the 700's color and its cable routing better. I actually thought the torque sensor was something I was missing out on.

 

[Asher]

I’ve been touting how good Ride1UP’s customer service has been even after going through the hassles and expense of re-packing and shipping my “Limited” model bike back to them. The reason for the return was the poorly designed Torque sensor system which they are finally admitting does not function as designed. I assume a good number of customers purchasing the Limited model did so because it offered a torque sensor instead of cadence.
Ride1up has an excellent reputation. Let’s hope they handle this situation correctly.

Well you should take some credit - I imagine returns like yours influenced their decision to rework the sensor. Returns kill profits.

 

[wings02]

They told me I did a great job in packing up the bike and sending it back to them. He said it didn’t even look used. I think I have a pretty good idea what they are going to do with the bike I sent back if you catch my drift

 

[GenXrider]

Well, this puts the LMT'D back in the running for me. But, it's hard to justify the 50% higher cost over the 500 series. I know all of the differences between the bikes, but I'm not sure I can justify $600 for those differences. Even the 700 would be $300 more than the 500 (without rack/fenders), which is also hard to justify. On the other hand, affordability isn't a problem, and I don't want to have regrets later for not spending a little extra dough for a bike that I'll be happier with. With the late summer shipping on these, I might hold off on making any decisions on that and just try to get something for next summer.

 

[wings02]

I may be highjacking this thread and I know this post may send GenX for therapy but here goes. My reason for writing this in this section is because a lot of people following this subject about the Limited bike is interested in a torque sensor set-up. Has anyone here considered a mid drive bike? The torque sensor in that set-up is refined and from what I have read and discussed with people who have this system, they wouldn't consider a hub drive. I always had mid drive on my radar but it seemed the motors were noisy. This is until I started researching Specialized ebikes. They use a Brose motor which utilizes an internal belt drive instead of just gears. It's very quiet and dependable. Watch and read the reviews. I am going out soon to test ride one locally. One of the downsides to mid drive is most systems do not have a throttle. In my brief experience with my ebike, I found I rarely used a throttle so this for me is a non issue. I had a mobile bike repair service come to my house yesterday to make some repairs on an old Cannondale bike. I picked his brain a little about ebikes and he said he has a mid drive bike and wouldn't get anything else. Just food for thought..... If anyone has experience/opinions with mid drives, please give your input either here or private message me.

 

[BigNerd]

I think many here prefer mid-drives.

There is an additional wear/tear on the chain/belt that you should consider but from I read, for pedal assist, it's more "natural".

 

[GenXrider]

Has anyone here considered a mid drive bike? The torque sensor in that set-up is refined and from what I have read and discussed with people who have this system, they wouldn't consider a hub drive.

I actually mentioned a specific mid-drive bike as an alternative earlier in this thread. Ironically, it uses a cadence sensor based PAS.

https://electricbikereview.com/foru...lmtd-new-owners-perspective.35049/post-296402

For any serious mountain biking, I would be looking specifically for mid-drives with torque sensor based PAS.

 

[Lumpydog]

Another quick update: I went out for an hour on the bike today to get more miles on the new controller/software. The bike behaves very very differently than it did before installing the 2.0 controller, in a good way.

Same: Cuts through hills as it did before. My guess was that on hills, the 1.0 setup's motor could not kick on/accelerate enough to overrun the human torque input so the bike's motor ran consistent/smooth/even. As mentioned, the LMTD's 1.0 controller setup was really nice on hills - but it left me wondering why the bike doesn't do the same on flats...

New: On the flats, the 2.0 controller/bike provides a completely smooth motor experience that increases and decreases with my pedal input. No more motor cut in/out - on/off. No more jumpy feeling if you don't have the right PAS selected. The motor's presence is consistent and the provided power is in-line with what I ask of it via pedal input - no matter what PAS I have selected - which is a big change. The bike overall feels WAY more measured and even in motor assistance but is still powerful if you call for it with more pedal input or PAS. Also new - with no headwind, I was able to cruise at 30mph vs 28 before the motor cutout. May have just been a fluke?

Conclusion so far - the new controller with updated software provides a much smoother ride and assists in a way that feels much much more natural and even. If you have a June-shipped bike, I think it's worth it to obtain an updated controller. If you have a bike on order, this is a really nice ebike for the price and I'd buy a new LMT'D in a heartbeat. I'm glad I stuck with the LMT'D and I'm glad Ride1Up did too. I know their initial response was that they were standing by the bike as is. It takes time to gather enough customer feedback to understand there is a real issue.

I know this: A month after I took delivery of my LMT'D, I have a GREAT ebike - that I believe rivals much more expensive brands/model - for way less. It took a little patience - this is what you buy into when you choose DTC (direct to consumer) bikes. I've said it before - expect to trade off price for some convenience.

I'll post a separate thread on swapping the controller.

 

[wings02]

I’m happy for you Lumpy! I was a little surprised you kept the bike after your earlier concerns. Ride1UP came thru for you! I wish I lived close by so I could give your bike a try. Safe biking!

 

[cldlhd]

Well, this puts the LMT'D back in the running for me. But, it's hard to justify the 50% higher cost over the 500 series. I know all of the differences between the bikes, but I'm not sure I can justify $600 for those differences. Even the 700 would be $300 more than the 500 (without rack/fenders), which is also hard to justify. On the other hand, affordability isn't a problem, and I don't want to have regrets later for not spending a little extra dough for a bike that I'll be happier with. With the late summer shipping on these, I might hold off on making any decisions on that and just try to get something for next summer.

I don't really like the fenders

Well, this puts the LMT'D back in the running for me. But, it's hard to justify the 50% higher cost over the 500 series. I know all of the differences between the bikes, but I'm not sure I can justify $600 for those differences. Even the 700 would be $300 more than the 500 (without rack/fenders), which is also hard to justify. On the other hand, affordability isn't a problem, and I don't want to have regrets later for not spending a little extra dough for a bike that I'll be happier with. With the late summer shipping on these, I might hold off on making any decisions on that and just try to get something for next summer.

Well I want the rack, but not the fenders, so the 700 is $250 more in my scenario and it also comes with hydraulic vs mechanical brakes , better tires, an integrated ( better?) battery, better display etc .. so IMHO the 700 us the sweet spot between the 500 and the LMT'D.

 

[GenXrider]

I don't really like the fenders

Well I want the rack, but not the fenders, so the 700 is $250 more in my scenario and it also comes with hydraulic vs mechanical brakes , better tires, an integrated ( better?) battery, better display etc .. so IMHO the 700 us the sweet spot between the 500 and the LMT'D.

They all have their advantages. I also like the lower weight of the 500 and that a replacement (or additional) battery is only $300 and can add a higher capacity 17.5 Ah battery for $400 that's not available for the 700/LMT'D. If I spend the extra on the 700, then I have to think about spending that much for for the LMT'D. No easy decisions, but fortunately, I don't have to make that decision now.

 

[cldlhd]

They all have their advantages. I also like the lower weight of the 500 and that a replacement (or additional) battery is only $300 and can add a higher capacity 17.5 Ah battery for $400 that's not available for the 700/LMT'D. If I spend the extra on the 700, then I have to think about spending that much for for the LMT'D. No easy decisions, but fortunately, I don't have to make that decision now.

I agree . That's how it works. First I was looking at the Core5 then I liked the idea of the front suspension fork, better derailleurs, tires, battery, hydraulic brakes etc.. " hey it's only a few hundred more"... I'm just saying that for me the 700 has some things over the 500 that's worth it but the LMT'D compared to the 700 doesn't. I also plan on keeping this bike a long time hopefully so when you look at the extra $200 for the 700 isn't a big deal.