Review: New LMT'D - new owner's perspective

I worry about the torque sensor on this bike. I was ready to pull the trigger today, but this is giving me pause. Should I just go with the 700 instead? Decisions...
While this might be a bit of an issue, I suspect their Cadence sensor is similar on start, as is common. So depends on your reason for wanting the LTM over the 700 in the first place.
 
The type of riding I do now on my current non-ebike is almost all on country roads where I usually ride a mile or two at a time with nearly continuous pedaling without touching the brakes or stopping, often not coming to a full stop over 12 miles. I actually don't do any trail riding. I think the cadence sensor based bikes would be well-suited for my type of riding. If I rode mountain bike trails, I can see more of advantage to the torque sensor based on what I've read in the past and again from CityExplorer just above.

Due to the availability of these bikes and the short season of nice riding weather, I have plenty of time to decide - I'll probably hold off until next spring unless something special comes up. I haven't crossed the LMT'D off of my short list.
 
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Honestly it sounds like putting the torque sensor in the first batch was a mistake, unless firmware updates are possible.

It's not like it's a growing pain of production that gets solved through making more, it's a matter of a couple people testing and refining over time.
 
While my partner is going to go with one of the new R1U 500 Step-Thru models, I think I'm going to go with a Surface604 - they are a few hundred bucks more, but their torque sensor has been refined over several iterations, and i like the nicer shimano/sram gearsets and bafang motor they all use. Or i'll just splurge and go with a FLX Trail mid-drive or something. Analysis paralysis.
 
While my partner is going to go with one of the new R1U 500 Step-Thru models, I think I'm going to go with a Surface604 - they are a few hundred bucks more, but their torque sensor has been refined over several iterations, and i like the nicer shimano/sram gearsets and bafang motor they all use. Or i'll just splurge and go with a FLX Trail mid-drive or something. Analysis paralysis.
A Surface604 is a pretty big step up I think. A good choice it seems from people that own them. The Surface604 I think is a better all-round bike than the FLX, and splurging does not mean a better bike, if it has different strengths. Think about how you will use it, and if this is your first e-bike then the Surface604 is the much better option I believe.
 
A Surface604 is a pretty big step up I think. A good choice it seems from people that own them. The Surface604 I think is a better all-round bike than the FLX, and splurging does not mean a better bike, if it has different strengths. Think about how you will use it, and if this is your first e-bike then the Surface604 is the much better option I believe.
Not a class 3
 
The Biktrix Juggernaut Classic with mid-drive, cadence sensor, 9 assist levels, and the 2.8" street tires looks like a nice alternative, albeit $2099 without optional upgrades. Those tires are even a little wider than the LMT'D and 700 without going fat or knobby. 3" MTB and 4" fat wheel sets are also available as an alternative or add-on.

https://www.biktrix.com/products/2020-juggernaut-classic
 
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Quick update after a week.

- I’ll post soon about the accessories I put on my LMT’D

- My speedometer stopped working - I’ve reached out to R1Up

- Not sure if it’s related to the speedometer, but I’m continuing to find that the torque sensor can‘t deliver continuous power on the flat surfaces when maintaining steady speed. See video below, where I am pedaling with continuous pressure on the pedals and you can see (left side of the display/watts) and hear the motor cutting in/out.

It’s hard to see on the display in the video but the watts Jump briefly on then full off then on then full off. I’ve worked to minimize this but there is no getting at smooth assistance on flats at constant speed. Normal for a torque sensing bike?

 
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- Not sure if it’s related to the speedometer, but I’m continuing to find that the torque sensor can‘t deliver continuous power on the flat surfaces when maintaining steady speed. See video below, where I am pedaling with continuous pressure on the pedals and you can see (left side of the display/watts) and hear the motor cutting in/out.

It’s hard to see on the display in the video but the watts Jump briefly on then full off then on then full off. I’ve worked to minimize this but there is no getting at smooth assistance on flats at constant speed. Normal for a torque sensing bike?

Have you seen the response from Ride1UP that Wings02 got in this thread?

I'm leaning more towards a cadence sensor based PAS over torque sensor based PAS at this point.
 
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Quick update after a week.

- I’ll post soon about the accessories I put on my LMT’D

- My speedometer stopped working - I’ve reached out to R1Up

- Not sure if it’s related to the speedometer, but I’m continuing to find that the torque sensor can‘t deliver continuous power on the flat surfaces when maintaining steady speed. See video below, where I am pedaling with continuous pressure on the pedals and you can see (left side of the display/watts) and hear the motor cutting in/out.

It’s hard to see on the display in the video but the watts Jump briefly on then full off then on then full off. I’ve worked to minimize this but there is no getting at smooth assistance on flats at constant speed. Normal for a torque sensing bike?


oh man that is rough...
 
The 2020 models are - I'm looking at the Shred, which is a class 3 by default and can be delimited even beyond that. (Easy to mod the motor/controller)

The others are all changeable to class 3 from the controller.

Ah you're right, didn't see that. A friend has an older Rook and knew it as a Class 2. The website says Class 3 Ready, I guess that means it's a menu option.
 
Quick update after a week.

- I’ll post soon about the accessories I put on my LMT’D

- My speedometer stopped working - I’ve reached out to R1Up

- Not sure if it’s related to the speedometer, but I’m continuing to find that the torque sensor can‘t deliver continuous power on the flat surfaces when maintaining steady speed. See video below, where I am pedaling with continuous pressure on the pedals and you can see (left side of the display/watts) and hear the motor cutting in/out.

It’s hard to see on the display in the video but the watts Jump briefly on then full off then on then full off. I’ve worked to minimize this but there is no getting at smooth assistance on flats at constant speed. Normal for a torque sensing bike?

Quick update...

1) It turns out that whatever caused the speedometer to stop working also reset my PAS range to 0-5 - so PAS level 3 in my video was way more assist (and therefor jumpy) than I expected. My earlier post suggested going to PAS range 0-9 to refine the levels and the video shows... that really matters. If the PAS is too high the motor runs in a sort of jerky on/off mode. When I went back to the 0-9 range this afternoon and then set the PAS to level 3, the motor went back to participating more evenly and I was back to riding without feeling like the bike was jerky with each pedal stroke. Good catch Wings02 - who asked me to check the PAS range.

2) Ride1Up responded to my email about the lack of speedo and offered to send me a new display - fast response and no questions asked. When riding this afternoon the speedo started working again. Seems like my display may have an issue.

Here is where I'm at with this bike - and I'll keep reporting my experience. I received the same email from Ride1Up as Wings02 in his post. The BB torque sensor, located in the bottom bracket, takes a little dialing in to match your pedal power - to get it so it doesn't feel like the bike is jumping forward when the motor kicks in to assist. My earlier post covers this. Once you find a PAS setting that is suited to the torque you apply when you pedal - yes - the engine varies in assist level... you can hear that - almost like the engine is an extension of your pedaling. Too much PAS and it feels stabby/jerky - like you have hulk legs. But, once you get the right PAS level - if you ignore the motor run up/down with your pedaling, the feel is actually smooth assistance. As I ride more and more, I notice the motor less and less - the bike cruises... but feels like I'm pedaling/contributing.

I'll say this - the bike is definitely driven by my pedal force - I like that. I have to work to make the bike go but the bike "goes a little more than my legs input". I want to go faster, I pedal harder and the motor adds some... Once I get over the motor sound going up/down with my pedaling (we're all used to motors that run constant) the bike gets me places fast with a pretty natural feel.

I need to figure out what's up with the display/speedo and will see if that was a one time glitch or an ongoing thing.
 
Thanks for the update. But seriously, based on your video, that's not correct behavior from a properly setup torque sensor/controller combo.
However, I totally understand wanting to make the bike work, and I cannot stress how thankful I am to you for putting your first impressions / videos here.
 
I’ve had more time to ride the LMT’D - still enjoying it. As I’ve posted, the bike has a learning curve - at my weight/cruising speed, it assists nicely on PAS level 3. Ride it at a higher PAS than your cruising speed and it will feel jumpy - as seen in my video. It's fun to bump PAS to 9 and hammer on the pedals - going 28-29mph is not hard. Man are shocks important at that speed - more on that.

It’s a really fun bike to hop onto and get places fast - without a lot of forethought - getup and go. I use it to get around the area I live, which is a coastal harbor town. It gets jam packed and congested with traffic In the summer. I’m pretty surprised how much easier and faster an ebike gets me around. All the time I’ve wasted (and pollution I've created) getting In my car, start it up, backing out of the garage, onto the road, wait at the lights (multiple cycles), find a parking place, etc, etc.

Jumping on the bike - I can actually get into town faster with less aggravation and enjoy being outside in the sun/sea air. I regularly pass cars and see them later somewhere I’ve stopped to get coffee, etc - well after I’ve arrived.

Some have asked about the accessories I have on the bike. I try to keep things pretty minimal:

1) A Topeak Tetra Rack M2 - I didn’t like the standard aftermarket racks where you have support stays and metal straps that you need to bend... it just ends up looking not integrated - a bolted on afterthought. This was one thing I wish Ride1Up included - their custom racks look great on their bikes - they should, they were made for them. Without a custom Ride1Up rack, the Topeak Tetra Rack was actually a pretty sweet option. I like that it can be easily added or removed - 4 Velcro straps. I also like the rail system that Topeak bags slide and lock into. I got one of Topeak’s EX Trunk bags and I keep a lock, a Covid mask and two rechargeable head and tail lights in it. I toss the bag on the rack if I’m going to stop/go into a store, etc. I like that there is no vertical support that interferes with access to the brakes or Cassette. I also like that the Ride1Up-supplied reflector fit perfectly on the rack - which included the mount. A few drawbacks on this rack for some - 1) 25lb limit (No child seat). I won’t come close to that limit. 2) Pannier bags - probably not a good idea on this rack without the vertical support to keep the bags out of the spokes.

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2) I picked up a Suntour NCX Seatpost (27.2mm x 400mm) and a Seat-post shim to adapt it to the Ride1Up's 30.8mm tube to a 27.2mm post. I liked that the NCX came with a neoprene cover for the shock mechanism because it keeps it inconspicuous. I mentioned in my earlier post - it's worth learning how to setup the front shocks. From the factory, Ride1Up ship the fork (for my weight) too firm. To get some pre-sag, I needed to dump air. I also adjusted the rebound to about 2:00 on the dial (11:00 being lockout). Setting up the Suntour seat post, I followed the supplied instructions. Voila - the bike soaks up bumps really well. The seat post works incredibly well - along with the front air shocks. At 28 mph, imperfections in the road - especially where roadwork has been completed and re-covered... the bike needs to provide that isolation. It's a good pairing - I recommend the Suntour NCX seat post.

3) A Cycle Satiator charger and 2.5mm DC adapter. Treat your battery well and it will last longer. There are enough commercials for this product in these forums.

4) A bell. Ding ding!

Fun bike. Speedometer started working after the display rebooted itself. Still keeping an eye on that - but no other issues at this point. I'll follow up with additional thoughts over time. Zoom zoom.
 
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It sounds like you are going to keep your LMT'D despite the torque sensor issue. Have you found the torque sensor to provide smooth assist when going up hills where you might need to use more PAS than usual 3 while still pedaling continuously but without hammering the pedals? Does the PAS provide smooth assist in that case, or does it feel jumpy, pulsating, or otherwise unnatural?

I see Wing02 is returning his LMT'D.
https://electricbikereview.com/foru...ike-to-ride1up-question-about-shipping.35384/
 
It sounds like you are going to keep your LMT'D despite the torque sensor issue. Have you found the torque sensor to provide smooth assist when going up hills where you might need to use more PAS than usual 3 while still pedaling continuously but without hammering the pedals? Does the PAS provide smooth assist in that case, or does it feel jumpy, pulsating, or otherwise unnatural?

I see Wing02 is returning his LMT'D.
https://electricbikereview.com/foru...ike-to-ride1up-question-about-shipping.35384/

I'm keeping it. I'm not sure there is a "torque sensor issue" - or, if this configuration with a solo BB/hall sensor paired with a high torque motor just works differently and you need to learn how it works and use accordingly. It works well for me now that I've sorted out how the bike works. I don't like when the bike feels jumpy on each pedal stroke - and it definitely does if I have the PAS set too high, relative to my cruising speed. This kinda makes sense - when the PAS is too high, my input translates into too much output (see my earlier video - I had the PAS on 3 of 5, thinking it was on 3 of 9). When I have the PAS set well - so that my input translates into a subtle assist - it's works great. For me that's PAS 3-6 out of 9 depending on how fast I want to go. I'm finding the PAS on this bike works like a typical gear shifter. I actually stay in 8th gear most of the time on the LMT'D and increase PAS as I want to go faster. As you increase PAS, you have to pedal harder and the bike's motor contributes more power in relation to your pedal input. You do have to pedal harder though - I like that. I'm not just spinning magnets around, I'm communicating my effort to the motor "I'm pedaling harder, you input more"

When I have the PAS set well, on flats, the motor input does vary - up/down with my pedal input (but not on/off). I know this because I can hear the motor increasing and decreasing input - BUT - I can't feel the motor increase/decrease - the bike just goes faster, easier. If I have the PAS set too high, the bike feels "stabby" as my input translates into more output than I intended and the motor jumps on/off. I get that can be a turn off to people and feel like an issue. When I was a kid, I tried to start my car from a stop in 3rd gear. It bucked too.

Where this bike really shines - is on any incline/hill. That's where the motor kicks in constantly/continuously and zips you up the hill as you pedal - but, using the same pedal effort as you were using before the hill. It really does flatten hills - this is where I "got it" w/regard to why torque sensors are different. The torque sensor feels the hill so you don't...

My feedback so far - as a new-to-ebike owner - is that R1Up should smooth out the motor's torque output to have the motor's awesome power introduced more subtly at first but increased later in response to human torque input. This would put less emphasis on PAS selection to mute motor introduction. Also - I'd consider a larger gear cassette. This motor makes the lower gears useless - at least to me - I have strong legs. BUT if I ever run out of battery - I'd probably appreciate those lower gears... tradeoffs.
 
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Where this bike really shines - is on any incline/hill. That's where the motor kicks in constantly/continuously and zips you up the hill as you pedal - but, using the same pedal effort as you were using before the hill. It really does flatten hills - this is where I "got it" w/regard to why torque sensors are different. The torque sensor feels the hill so you don't...
That relates to my question. So, you're able to stay in PAS 3 once you start up the hill because the torque sensor assist makes up the difference in power to keep you moving at the same speed.

The gear ratio on different e-bikes is something I always pay attention to and is enough to cross them off my list. My standard Trek hyrid has 48T largest chainring and a 11-32 cassette. I use the 11T cog occasionally and the 12T one often. I never drop from the 48T chainring. It seems backwards to go with lower gearing with electrical assist, but some of these e-bikes have a 38T or smaller chainring or may have a 12T as the smallest cog on the cassette. The Rize has a 42T chainring. LMT'D has a 44T chainring - not bad. The 700 has a 45T. Ripcurrent S has a 52T chainring wih 11-32T cassette, and I've even seen the owner of one of those say he would prefer a higher gearing.

Edit: Espin has a 45T chainring, which looks good at first sight, but the cassette is 12-32T, which makes the Espin's highest gear the equivalent of my Trek's 3rd highest gear, which I typically use for flat roads. The NCM Moscow Plus and Aspen Plus give high gear ratio equal to my Trek's highest gear along with low gear ratios due to multiple chainrings up front.
 
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... So, you're able to stay in PAS 3 once you start up the hill because the torque sensor assist makes up the difference in power to keep you moving at the same speed.

Yep - exactly. Hot knife through butter. It's the best thing about this bike.

The gear ratio on different e-bikes is something I always pay attention to and is enough to cross them off my list...

I don't know a lot about rear cassettes and gear ratios on a bike. I just know what feels useful to me. On this bike - so far: 8th gear, all day long. Take that as a sample of one, from a guy that is 52, weighs 180lbs, has relatively strong legs and good health. I like to go faster, get farther. My guess is that some LMT'D buyers take an easier-going approach than I do. R1Up needs to cover a broader range of buyers than just me/us...
 
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