Raising the handlebar on a '19 Vado 3.0

[FlatSix911]

Just a note that this online comparison tool assumes your stems are built like this:
View attachment 47786

whereas the one I referenced is this:

View attachment 47787

Thus, the stem comparison tool won't work for these two.


As for adjustable stems, the one @Alaskan referenced is among the highest quality versions out there and would likely hold up to all but aggressive singletrack jumping use.

Good point on the geometry calculation.

Personally, I would never use an adjustable stem on one of my E-MTBs... the dynamic loads are way too high. YMMV

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[smorgasbord]

Guys, you must be aware that the Vado is a 28 mph Speed e-Bike and its geometry was meticulously planned. For that reason I stay on the opinion the an A-HEAD compatible Stem Riser/Extender is the proper and stable solution that will not change the bike's geometry and is safe for the high speed.

I disagree.

First, since the steerer tube is angled towards the rider, putting an extension on it changes the geometry by moving the handlebars closer to the rider. So, if all you want is more height, you actually need a longer stem to maintain the same reach when you add a stem extender.

Second, stem extenders are the least safe way to raise your grip height.

The company that makes the adjustable stem that @Alaskan mentioned, Ergotec, labels their products with safety ratings from 1-6, with 6 being the safest. Here's a link with more information: https://www.ergotec.de/en/safety-level-33.html Note also the table on that page where they discuss the forces applied to the handlebars for different kinds of bikes.

Now, here's a link to the stems they make: https://www.ergotec.de/en/products/vorbauten/sub/ahead-vorbau.html . Note that some of the adjustable stems are rated "4", but some are rated "6." Those are the strong ones - as strong as any non-adjustable stem made.

Now the stem extender they make (https://www.ergotec.de/en/products/vorbauten/sub/vorbauerhohung-adapter/produkt/ahead-3.html ) is only rated 4. Therefore, I believe that if strength is important, one should swap the stem, not add an adapter.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

First, since the steerer tube is angled towards the rider, putting an extension on it changes the geometry by moving the handlebars closer to the rider. So, if all you want is more height, you actually need a longer stem to maintain the same reach when you add a stem extender.

True. The Vado has the head tube angle of 70 degrees. Adding 75 mm (3") will decrease the reach with 25 mm (1"). Is that really relevant?

Second, stem extenders are the least safe way to raise your grip height.

Hard data? I mean, "4" for Ergotec classification is not "the least safe" as the scale is from 1-6. It is quite safe and I can guarantee no problems with the cable slack.

 

[rochrunner]

This discussion reminds me of a friend of mine, one of those guys who prides himself on going his own way, which often doesn't work out. He wanted to join our group of seniors on our weekly ride, but instead of getting a hybrid-type bike (like my Crosstrail) or even a cheap MTB, he went in and somehow ended up with a dropbar Cyclocross bike (I blame the dealer for some of this). There was no way he could ride in such a forward position, so he proceeded to change everything to get an almost fully upright position, which the bike was never intended for.

Well, when he got done, he did end up upright -- which looked really stupid on that type of bike -- but at the cost of seriously affecting the geometry and weight distribution. Cyclocross bikes are made with geometry for quick steering on tight trails, and with his changes the bike became so unstable and twitchy that he fell off a couple of times when trying to maneuver at slow speeds. We never saw the bike or him on a ride after that...

This is just to say that changes made to a bike that affect any of its dimensions can have unintended consequences. Minor changes to seat position, stem length and angle are generally within the bounds of what is allowed for "fitting" a bike, but I think you have to be careful when making major changes to seating position and weight distribution. I once almost had a crash on my motorcycle due to the weight of what I was carrying on a trip in my saddlebags and rear trunk that made the front end get a bit "light" and caused it to get into a wobble after hitting a bump at 60mph!

 

[smorgasbord]

True. The Vado has the head tube angle of 70 degrees. Adding 75 mm (3") will decrease the reach with 25 mm (1"). Is that really relevant?

From a comfort perspective, an inch is a huge change in reach. In many cases, that will help with getting into a more upright position even without raising the handlebars.

This article discusses some of the geometry and weight distribution issues: https://cyclingtips.com/2015/03/how-does-stem-length-affect-a-bikes-steering-and-handling/ As we're discussing, there are no definitive answers that apply to all situations. Steering gets twitchier as the hand position moves closer to the vertical steering axis. This movie shows some real-world testing:

Hard data? I mean, "4" for Ergotec classification is not "the least safe" as the scale is from 1-6. It is quite safe and I can guarantee no problems with the cable slack.

My point is that relatively speaking, it's the least safe. There are no stem extenders rated 5 or 6, but there are stems, even adjustable stems, that are rated 6.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

OK, @smorgasbord, I see a point.

 

[FlatSix911]

I agree.

Keep in mind that level 5-6 are recommended for racing and mtn biking... levels 2-4 are fine for city biking and trekking based on weight.

 

[Sierratim]

Lots of good info here. Always nice to learn new things.

 

[smorgasbord]

I agree.

Keep in mind that level 5-6 are recommended for racing and mtn biking... levels 2-4 are fine for city biking and trekking based on weight.

Weight AND speed: 45kph / 28mph needs Level 6

Of course, this is in Ergotec's estimation. They're a company, not a government/public agency.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Indeed, a lot of interesting information and a wealth of choices!
Now... "Now even more stable and suitable for e-bike. " (Good I didn't know my riser was unstable and unsafe for my last 1100 km!)

Ahead 3 - Ergotec

www.ergotec.de

Shopping Ergotec solutions for A-HEAD system now. Perhaps I would choose something with the Safety Level of 6?

P.S. Just ordered the Ergotec stem recommended by @Alaskan, the 80 mm one. Thank you and @smorgasbord too! I must say whatever Alaskan recommends is good and tried but I will go bankrupt at that rate!

 

[DanInStPete]

50mm riser bars from Deity (30mm trimmed off each side):

 

[FlatSix911]

50mm riser bars from Deity (30mm trimmed off each side):

Nice ride... how do you like the mirror mounted under your handlebars... Hafney brand correct?

 

[DanInStPete]

That's correct, I ordered a right mirror and mounted it left. It works really well for me. I just have to bend my wrist up slightly to get a full view.

 

[CCroft]

This thread has got me thinking/reading more about some recent modifications to my stem/handlebar of my 26" fat bike over the past two years. My most recent change involved replacing the handlebar. Although the specs on the bar appeared similar to the one it replaced (needed to replace the original carbon with an alloy since the bar ends would not stay secure on the carbon), the steering was much more twitchy and challenging to control, particularly off-road. I made no changes to the stem.

Thinking about some of the posts here eventually led me to this article, in which the author did some rough measuring of various MTB bars to examine how their various shapes ended up negating much of the extension a stem would ordinarily provide. So I measured both my old and new handlebars using a similar approach, with a stem with a nominal length of about 45mm. Sure enough, my old bar (Orgin8 Space Carbon) resulted in an effective stem length of about 25mm, while my new bar (Ritchey Koyote) left me with only around 5mm--no wonder my steering felt the way it did!

My challenge is getting sufficient added rise/height to achieve the more upright position I prefer, but not doing so in a way that gets me so close to the steering axis that the steering suffers. Interestingly the author of the handlebar article found that rotating the bar had a much greater influence on effective stem length than differences between the bars themselves, so I'll certainly be experimenting with that before buying yet another bar.

But I think a main takeaway from all of this is knowing/being honest about what you're needing in riding position, etc. as you begin the bike search process (unlike the guy described by rochrunner earlier), and then investing the time/effort up front to find a bike with the fit/geometry that comes close to achieving that right out of the box...rather than assuming you can modify your way there by switching out stems, bars, etc. later.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

But I think a main takeaway from all of this is knowing/being honest about what you're needing in riding position, etc. as you begin the bike search process (unlike the guy described by rochrunner earlier), and then investing the time/effort up front to find a bike with the fit/geometry that comes close to achieving that right out of the box...rather than assuming you can modify your way there by switching out stems, bars, etc. later.

People buy the Vado either as a commuter or as a recreational e-bike and do it for one very good reason: It is a Class 3 vehicle. As a sibling of the e-MTB, Vado requires the forward riding position. That is bad for many people -- for example because of wrong body mass distribution between the saddle and the handlebars. It is legit to make bike fitting by rising the handlebars for more upright position.

You say "find a bike with the right geometry". Good luck, there are not many good Class 3 e-bikes in the market and most of them require laying on the bars...

 

[CCroft]

Absolutely. If you have a bike (e or otherwise) that checks all/most of your boxes, and there are no alternatives available, then obviously you have no choice but to go down this road if you aren't satisfied with the "original" riding position. I'm just saying that for many people, making this particular issue a priority earlier in the process rather than an afterthought is time well spent, since there appears to be real limits/trade-offs trying to achieve it later with modifications

People buy the Vado either as a commuter or as a recreational e-bike and do it for one very good reason: It is a Class 3 vehicle. As a sibling of the e-MTB, Vado requires the forward riding position. That is bad for many people -- for example because of wrong body mass distribution between the saddle and the handlebars. It is legit to make bike fitting by rising the handlebars for more upright position.

You say "find a bike with the right geometry". Good luck, there are not many good Class 3 e-bikes in the market and most of them require laying on the bars...

 

[Nxkharra]

People buy the Vado either as a commuter or as a recreational e-bike and do it for one very good reason: It is a Class 3 vehicle. As a sibling of the e-MTB, Vado requires the forward riding position. That is bad for many people -- for example because of wrong body mass distribution between the saddle and the handlebars. It is legit to make bike fitting by rising the handlebars for more upright position.

You say "find a bike with the right geometry". Good luck, there are not many good Class 3 e-bikes in the market and most of them require laying on the bars...

I still maintain that Vado is closest to perfect for my riding and body position (body geometry) compared to all my other bikes (ebike or regular).
specialized is amongst the companies that pay attention to this as opposed to just assembling bunch of parts together to make a bike (I think and hope).
Anything better would be having a custom bike made for you.
They have made Como for those of us who likes upright position. Not sure if it makes senses to buy a Vado and try to make it into Como.
We do need a certain core strength to be able to balance weight between seat and arms (some of us including me lacking this). Like riding a horse.
just my uneducated view.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

They have made Como for those of us who likes upright position

Not the Class 3, at least not in my region. That was the major reason I chose Vado not Como. When I used to ride the Vado in the first days -- you may laugh now -- my stomach was touching my thighs, or I felt so. Now I'm riding in more upright position but still leaning forward. Riding should be a pleasure, not suffering.

 

[Nxkharra]

Not the Class 3, at least not in my region. That was the major reason I chose Vado not Como. When I used to ride the Vado in the first days -- you may laugh now -- my stomach was touching my thighs, or I felt so. Now I'm riding in more upright position but still leaning forward. Riding should be a pleasure, not suffering.

No Como 4 in ?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

No Como 4 in ?

Even the 5.0 is available but I can bet the Como e-bikes sold in Poland are Class 1. What makes me think so?

Class 3 e-bikes sold in the EU are of the L1e-B class or simply they are electrical mopeds by law. One of the items required on the L1e-B is the registration plate mount. Now, see these three pictures for Turbo e-bikes available in Poland (the top models shown):

Turbo Como 5.0 PL (2019). No registration plate support. Class 1.

Turbo Vado 6.0 PL (2020). The registration plate mount exists. L1e-B (Class 3).

Turbo Vado 5.0 PL (2020). Class 1.

The practical meaning is:

• My (New Old Stock) 2017 Turbo Vado 5.0, Class 3, top-notch components cost me the equivalent of US$3540 in 2019;
• A new 2020 Turbo Vado 6.0, Class 3, almost as good components costs US$5020 in Poland now.

Should I say anything more?