Product Improvement:- Feedback to Bosch.

[E14Delite]

Some manufacturers now have representatives making helpful contributions to this forum. Bosch is one example. If forum members have our own product improvement suggestions perhaps one option is to add any suggestions to this thread with a specific subject line clearing identifying the suggestion and details in the body the post. I would not expect Bosch representatives to respond to every suggestion but forum members could give a thumbs up to the suggestion and Bosch would be expected to acknowledge those that have merit.

If you wish to expand on an individual suggestion subject perhaps start a seperate thread in the forum rather than a reply to this one so that the focus of this particular thread is a summary of individual suggestions. Refer "Low Battery Cutout for Bosch Gen4" thread where a single suggestion is now multiple pages. If you post a suggestion you may wish to start this seperate thread with the same title to generate feedback from forum members as distinct from Bosch.

If you think this is a useful idea please complete the poll and/or give this a thumbs up and Admin may arrange to keep this type of post at the top of the sub-forum.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Great idea!
Let's do it.

 

[SteveBorough]

Many of us kiox owners also have phone mounts and can conveniently charge our phones while riding thanks to the kiox USB port. Why not allow the smartphone hub app to work on my mobile while connected via USB to Kiox?

 

[webcurl]

Custom Ride Modes for nearly all displays & countries. Should even be possible with an Intuvia if there's an app and usb connection. Cycle through off-eco-tour-sport/emtb-turbo-custom1-custom2-custom3-custom4-off, etc. Intuvia's could flash "Cust3" for example instead of "eMTB".
Also the apps ability to read most of the information a dealer may see: Battery temperatures, charge cycles, km/miles per mode and maybe the ability for the user, the owner, the person who ultimately paid the money for the product to be able to change light status, light drive (voltage) & battery reserve for lights.
It would not be hard to add to the Bosch ebike disclaimer. And it shouldn't be hard to secretly store information about where users may change things that may contribute to premature failure of parts so as to void warranty and warn them whilst they change these settings.
Maybe a code from the dealer to activate these features within the app as dealers will know if their customer is knowledgeable or not?

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Many of us kiox owners also have phone mounts and can conveniently charge our phones while riding thanks to the kiox USB port. Why not allow the smartphone hub app to work on my mobile while connected via USB to Kiox?

Hi Steve,

I agree with you... it would be great to be able to use the app for both displays. Unfortunately, the Kiox and the SPH use different apps because they are very different products in terms of software design. Both Kiox and SPH hub communicate with the app on the phone via Bluetooth, so the hard-wired charging connection won't make any difference in terms of compatibility. I'd imagine that eventually, we'll see a universal app for all Bosch displays.

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Custom Ride Modes for nearly all displays & countries. Should even be possible with an Intuvia if there's an app and usb connection. Cycle through off-eco-tour-sport/emtb-turbo-custom1-custom2-custom3-custom4-off, etc. Intuvia's could flash "Cust3" for example instead of "eMTB".
Also the apps ability to read most of the information a dealer may see: Battery temperatures, charge cycles, km/miles per mode and maybe the ability for the user, the owner, the person who ultimately paid the money for the product to be able to change light status, light drive (voltage) & battery reserve for lights.
It would not be hard to add to the Bosch ebike disclaimer. And it shouldn't be hard to secretly store information about where users may change things that may contribute to premature failure of parts so as to void warranty and warn them whilst they change these settings.
Maybe a code from the dealer to activate these features within the app as dealers will know if their customer is knowledgeable or not?

Thank you for the input, these are some great ideas. Some versions of some of these concepts may show up in future products, but I don't have details on that.

Due to the software/hardware design, some concepts may be more difficult to implement than what it may seem.

And for my last, most disappointing statement , much of current configuration and/or options are driven/controlled by Bosch's OEM partners. A great example of this being lights. We offer some options, but the OEMs ultimately decide how their products ship.

There are some pretty cool options that we recently released for updating eBike software in a way that riders get more choice. Hopefully, some of the suggestions you've made here become a reality in the future as well. I think a lot of eBike riders would really like it!

 

[E14Delite]

Some manufacturers now have representatives making helpful contributions to this forum. Bosch is one example. If forum members have our own product improvement suggestions perhaps one option is to add any suggestions to this thread with a specific subject line clearing identifying the suggestion and details in the body the post. I would not expect Bosch representatives to respond to every suggestion but forum members could give a thumbs up to the suggestion and Bosch would be expected to acknowledge those that have merit.

If you wish to expand on an individual suggestion subject perhaps start a seperate thread in the forum rather than a reply to this one so that the focus of this particular thread is a summary of individual suggestions. Refer "Low Battery Cutout for Bosch Gen4" thread where a single suggestion is now multiple pages. If you post a suggestion you may wish to start this seperate thread with the same title to generate feedback from forum members as distinct from Bosch.

If you think this is a useful idea please complete the poll and/or give this a thumbs up and Admin may arrange to keep this type of post at the top of the sub-forum.

Kiox:- Selected Gear Display Improvement?
The new Kiox update has many excellent features including custom displays. For those with eshift it is now possible to include the current gear selected as a clearly visible data display on a custom screen with other data such as speed, cadence and trip distance. It would be good that if the gear selected was displayed on the active screen to not momentarily change to a full screen display that only shows the gear details. If the gear selected is already displayed, no need to show it as a full screen. Just one to perhaps file for the next major upgrade.

 

[Dallant]

Two questions...does the Kiox work/install easily to replace the Purion on the Trek Allant+7 and will the coming Bosch update allow me to have EMTB mode vs Sport mode?

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Two questions...does the Kiox work/install easily to replace the Purion on the Trek Allant+7 and will the coming Bosch update allow me to have EMTB mode vs Sport mode?

Kiox swap should be fairly straight foward, assuming that mounting points are considered/verified first. A software update is always recommended after any major component exchange (display, battery, drive unit.) Bosch recommends this work be done by a Certified Dealer.

[Edit: Just saw that your eBike comes with a CX. Still not sure which software Trek opted to use on it, would need a software update to see what choices there are.]
eMTB Mode is only available on eMTBs with Performance CX or Performance Line (Class 1, full size ring) Drive Units. Bosch recently launched a similar feature for eRoad bikes, but the eBike manufacturer will decide which models have it. I think some OEMs are actually already shipping some of their eRoad bikes with this feature, but it will vary by OEM.

Best bet would be to talk to Trek and see what's available for your eBike, or have your shop do a software update and see what options pop-up.

 

[batmick1]

One improvement that I would love to see is an option to install a dual battery setup. The system is capable of supporting it, so why can't I purchase a rack-mounted battery and Y-cable to increase the range on my bike?
Even though I am capable of doing the install myself, I would even accept dealer install only for this option.

 

[William - Bosch Team]

One improvement that I would love to see is an option to install a dual battery setup. The system is capable of supporting it, so why can't I purchase a rack-mounted battery and Y-cable to increase the range on my bike?
Even though I am capable of doing the install myself, I would even accept dealer install only for this option.

Great question!

We get this one quite a bit. Only the manufacturer of the eBike can make the call on allowing a dual battery setup. Many will now offer their own dual battery solution or upgrade option, but the eBike must have been designed to account for this. There is a quite a lot of design and engineering behind the scenes, even for seemingly simple components.

In additional to electronic interference testing considerations (the addition of wiring/battery can negatively affect compliance/safety) manufacturers have no way of knowing how a shop or consumer would DIY attach a battery. Will it be secure? Will it affect geometry/handling of the eBike? Will wires be safely routed? Will someone drill a hole in the frame to allowing routing for wiring? The list goes on. Even with OEM rear-rack braze-ons or riv-nuts, there is no verification that they are rated for the weight of an eBike battery. Additionally, the rear rack is one of the least safe places to add weight on a bicycle that wasn't designed to have it there.

Luckily, OEMs are listening to consumers, and adding a dual battery option to many of their new models. I realize this might not help you with range on your current eBike, but hopefully it does lend some understanding of the "why."

 

[batmick1]

Great question!

We get this one quite a bit. Only the manufacturer of the eBike can make the call on allowing a dual battery setup. Many will now offer their own dual battery solution or upgrade option, but the eBike must have been designed to account for this. There is a quite a lot of design and engineering behind the scenes, even for seemingly simple components.

In additional to electronic interference testing considerations (the addition of wiring/battery can negatively affect compliance/safety) manufacturers have no way of knowing how a shop or consumer would DIY attach a battery. Will it be secure? Will it affect geometry/handling of the eBike? Will wires be safely routed? Will someone drill a hole in the frame to allowing routing for wiring? The list goes on. Even with OEM rear-rack braze-ons or riv-nuts, there is no verification that they are rated for the weight of an eBike battery. Additionally, the rear rack is one of the least safe places to add weight on a bicycle that wasn't designed to have it there.

Luckily, OEMs are listening to consumers, and adding a dual battery option to many of their new models. I realize this might not help you with range on your current eBike, but hopefully it does lend some understanding of the "why."

Thanks!

I figured it was something along those lines.

Whenever lawyers get involved, things get messy. And the strong consumer laws and high penalties don't help.

If only it was a simple as a disclaimer, that as soon as you mess with the original configuration you waive all warranties and rights. My bike is out of warranty and if I could get the parts to install a second battery, I'd take the risk.

 

[SteveBorough]

How about a Kiox to forthcoming Nyon adapter since the pin-out is the same?

 

[batmick1]

Another question I had is about motor replacement.

I currently have a performance CX in the older, larger format. If that one fails, are there adapter plates to replace it with the newer, smaller format motor? Would that even be an option with the existing electronics?

This sounds like a niche for an aftermarket shop with a CNC rig.

 

[William - Bosch Team]

Another question I had is about motor replacement.

I currently have a performance CX in the older, larger format. If that one fails, are there adapter plates to replace it with the newer, smaller format motor? Would that even be an option with the existing electronics?

This sounds like a niche for an aftermarket shop with a CNC rig.

You are nailing it with all of the popular questions today, well done!

Short answer: No, I'm sorry.



Long answer: I don't know that it would fit the frame node, even with custom fabricated plates. Even if it did, the spindle would be in the wrong place, causing geometry issues (newer gen has spindle moved back approx. 30mm-ish.) Additionally, the full-size chainring (and subsequent chain path) might have mechanical interference issue with swing-arms, chainstays, etc.

On that same topic, dual suspension pivot points are generally designed with the 'chain line tangent' (probably a made up term) in mind for maximum pedaling efficiency and minimum "pedal bob." Admittedly, "bob" was more of an issue on older designs that pre-dated good platform valving on shocks, but I'd imagine this is still an important design consideration.

Frames and frame nodes are designed (and extensively tested) to withstand many different forces transmitted through the Drive Unit. Adding an additional piece of hardware with it's own fasteners would likely be a MAJOR ISSUE.

Electronically, the systems are compatible, though you'd have no way to get the proper software (if it even existed for your specific application.)

Finally, and what I probably should have started with: Bosch does not allow any interchanging of Drive Units (again, OEM call here,) and will not sell one aftermarket without pre-exchange of same part numbered unit.

Fortunately, Bosch will support your Drive Unit style for many years, even after it is no longer showing up on new eBikes.

 

[webcurl]

Another question I had is about motor replacement.

I currently have a performance CX in the older, larger format. If that one fails, are there adapter plates to replace it with the newer, smaller format motor? Would that even be an option with the existing electronics?

This sounds like a niche for an aftermarket shop with a CNC rig.

Yes! Great question. Apart from the larger chain ring problem of going from older to new CX.
I can't mechanically/geometrically visualize the issues involved but i would like to do the same in a few thousand kilometres mainly to remove the resistance beyond assistance of the older Performance CX and also gain the new performance enhancements of the new CX.

 

[William - Bosch Team]

How about a Kiox to forthcoming Nyon adapter since the pin-out is the same?

You are somewhat in luck here! I would GUESS that the Nyon will use the same wiring harness that Kiox and Smartphonehub use. It would most likely be mounted in a different holder though, as all (3) displays are different sizes. With Kiox and SPH, you can swap the mount onto the harness with a single 3mm (I think that's the size?) screw. Hopefully Nyon will be the same.

[edit on 1/5/2021: Nyon, SPH, and Kiox definitely all use the same wiring harness/remote, with just the mounts being different.]

 

[batmick1]

You are nailing it with all of the popular questions today, well done!

Short answer: No, I'm sorry.



Long answer: I don't know that it would fit the frame node, even with custom fabricated plates. Even if it did, the spindle would be in the wrong place, causing geometry issues (newer gen has spindle moved back approx. 30mm-ish.) Additionally, the full-size chainring (and subsequent chain path) might have mechanical interference issue with swing-arms, chainstays, etc.

On that same topic, dual suspension pivot points are generally designed with the 'chain line tangent' (probably a made up term) in mind for maximum pedaling efficiency and minimum "pedal bob." Admittedly, "bob" was more of an issue on older designs that pre-dated good platform valving on shocks, but I'd imagine this is still an important design consideration.

Frames and frame nodes are designed (and extensively tested) to withstand many different forces transmitted through the Drive Unit. Adding an additional piece of hardware with it's own fasteners would likely be a MAJOR ISSUE.

Electronically, the systems are compatible, though you'd have no way to get the proper software (if it even existed for your specific application.)

Finally, and what I probably should have started with: Bosch does not allow any interchanging of Drive Units (again, OEM call here,) and will not sell one aftermarket without pre-exchange of same part numbered unit.

Fortunately, Bosch will support your Drive Unit style for many years, even after it is no longer showing up on new eBikes.

Thanks for the quick answers!

Not sure I agree with the view on the problems. There is an entire industry for placing different motors in cars, where forces and specs are way more complicated than on a bike. I don't believe making an adapter plate that places the axle in the proper location is much of a challenge, even for full-suspension frames, which I do not have (Haibike XDuro Trekking RX).
I'll just keep hoping that my frame lasts a long time and that if/when the motor fails, you guys will still have some replacements. My original motor made it to just under 12k miles before it croaked, a little under 2 years for me.

 

[Dallant]

Kiox swap should be fairly straight foward, assuming that mounting points are considered/verified first. A software update is always recommended after any major component exchange (display, battery, drive unit.) Bosch recommends this work be done by a Certified Dealer.

[Edit: Just saw that your eBike comes with a CX. Still not sure which software Trek opted to use on it, would need a software update to see what choices there are.]
eMTB Mode is only available on eMTBs with Performance CX or Performance Line (Class 1, full size ring) Drive Units. Bosch recently launched a similar feature for eRoad bikes, but the eBike manufacturer will decide which models have it. I think some OEMs are actually already shipping some of their eRoad bikes with this feature, but it will vary by OEM.

Best bet would be to talk to Trek and see what's available for your eBike, or have your shop do a software update and see what options pop-up.

I just got mine updated today and they got the EMTB mode to install and work! They also made it so I can turn lights on & off!

 

[Paul Mcke]

Hi all, brand new to this forum. @William - Bosch Team just wanted to say well done for the latest software updates to the Kiox I love that it brings new functionality even though I've already bought it, there aren't many things you but where you get free updates. The navigation facility is very good although the fact that you can do a route in KoMoot, which auto updates routes in the Ebike connect app and is then available through the map function has to be the best kept secret ever. I only stumbled on it by accident.