Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
A chain stretch gauge is a 'must have' tool.
PLANET3 - mechanical e-bike derestriction device. https://planet3.bike/
- Thread starter Hanz
- Start date
willnottellyou
Member
- Region
- United Kingdom
willnottellyou
Member
- Region
- United Kingdom
Went to Evans Cycles (large chainstore, pun intended) near London Bridge- no 9 speed chains of any kind- chap wes nice enough and try on eBay he said . I already tried I said- oh, sorry mate ...
willnottellyou
Member
- Region
- United Kingdom
My LBS sorted me out. Cycle Fix(ed)
Used them in the past, super friendly and helpful staff.
Drama is over, for about 600 miles...
Used them in the past, super friendly and helpful staff.
Drama is over, for about 600 miles...
Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
Just trying to help you out, since you don't seem to have a cue as to when it's time to replace your chain.
willnottellyou
Member
- Region
- United Kingdom
I never said I didn't know when- I only moaned about not being able to lay my hands on the replacement part.
I do agree with you tho- it's good to have this and use regularly- I was lucky as chain was stil at 0.5 (I thought it was0.75) so didn't have to splash out on new cassette- advice from the shop was- get spares while stock lasts...
So, from brand new to worn KMC e9T chain lasted just under 700miles of commuting, mostly on flat, fair bit os stop start due to traffic lights and a lot of shifting, mostly on 50% power and 50assist, occasional 100% 100%
They didn't have that chain, so KMC X9 it is now, we will see how long it will last.
Cheers
Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
I'm having the same problem getting replacement parts in Canada (British Columbia) too.
Even though I don't need a new cassette or chain for my two bikes (one ebike and one road bike) I recently bought new cassettes and chains for both, because when I eventually need to replace these parts I suspect I won't be able to readily buy them.
Even though I don't need a new cassette or chain for my two bikes (one ebike and one road bike) I recently bought new cassettes and chains for both, because when I eventually need to replace these parts I suspect I won't be able to readily buy them.
Art Deco
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Selinsgrove Pennsylvania
And they aren't likely to get cheaper when they are available...
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
ebike-rated chains are overrated.
willnottellyou
Member
- Region
- United Kingdom
That's pretty much what the chap at the bike shop said- his advice was to get enough spares to last for a year or so. He had to improvise and add few extra missing links, as chains they have in stock aren't long enough...
willnottellyou
Member
- Region
- United Kingdom
I kind of feel the same but, if possible I try to replace like for like. Tech at the bike shop assured me that it will be fine and explained that a chain in a non powered bike is likely to be subject to even more stresses, as some stand up whilst cycling up the incline, therefore "normal" chains must be capable of handling that extra torque/ forces and as ebikes are generally limited to certain torque, they don't have to be as strong. Or something like that. Makes sense if you think about it.,, I would often pedal standing up on an analogue bike going up the hill, never even consider doing that on an ebike...
willnottellyou
Member
- Region
- United Kingdom
Fun fact.
Allegedly, reflective strip on the tires is applied by hand, hence why when you spin the wheel on a stand it may appear crooked.
Fun fact two. I took this photo about two miles away from the Olympic Village in London...
Allegedly, reflective strip on the tires is applied by hand, hence why when you spin the wheel on a stand it may appear crooked.
Fun fact two. I took this photo about two miles away from the Olympic Village in London...
Art Deco
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Selinsgrove Pennsylvania
Show
Shows up nicely against the fog.
They generally are longer than standard for ebikes.
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
Yes, that's the only thing making them different.
If we're talking about my own experience, I was trying so many chains on my heavily ridden (11-speed) Vado 5. Like, Shimano CN-E8000, Shimano Ultegra XT CN-HG701 (138 links), KMC e11 EPT, or unbranded Decathlon "11-speed chain for e-bikes". My Vado was originally delivered with Shimano CN-HG601 chain. As you can see, the only feature that made those chains different to standard bike chains was their length. Still, you can find two non e-bike chains here, and the "e-bike" chains were stretched at the same rate as the "non-ebike" ones. All the talk about special hardening or special plating means nothing unless you live by the ocean (a highly corrosive environment).
Alex @ PLANET3.bike
New Member
For some reason I have not received a single notification regarding replies to this thread after my initial post. I did some random Googling today since someone send me a photo of a supposedly worn out PLANET3 which turned out to not be PLANET3 at all, but a copy of some sort 
In any case, my apologies for the lack of response and activity here but I do always answer emails from customers so the best way to get in touch if one needs me is via info[at]planet3(dot)bike.
Now I'll tackle some stuff in order of appearance.
First off, the wear problem as posted by @MarcoVado. This version of the PLANET3 was the very first one released and the one that I rode for more than 9000 km on a Turbo Levo from 2019. However, there was one mistake that I basically made in the design and that were the clips of the ring gear. It's not really that I "made a mistake" in as much as I could've saved users from themselves if I only thought one more step ahead (which I now did and it's all fixed). The problem was that the ring gear still relied on the very very exact proper installation depth and each user at the time received this short video explaining the proper alignment which was necessary for long-term wear-free operation:
Now, I have to stress the following: even though this video went out via email to literally every customer who ordered before the "webshop" in its current format went up - there were still around 10-15% of cases where people simply pushed the ring gear down until it bottomed out on the sun gear. They did this with varying degrees of force so the failure rate and time needed varied. @MarcoVado most likely did a much better job than some other folk because it took his device 7500 km to fail due to wear of the planet. However, the fact that there was wear at all is proof that the planet was squeezed between the sun gear and the ring gear - albeit with minimal pressure. If there's no pressure, there's no wear and I've tested this by making a drill setup to test PLANET3s in the bike stand. I spun each version at 720 rpm which corresponds to about 100 km/h of speed in real life, which provides a lot more side pressure to the teeth of the planet and the ring gear than they would ever experience on a bike and after 5-6 days of sleeping with ear plugs due to a drill working in the other room non-stop, the conclusion was simple: it'll never wear out so long as it's installed with the pre-designed gap between the two main large parts, leaving the small planet (magnet carrier) to move freely inside.
Recently I made another video and a new tool to help users who had hubs with no geometry that I could use to make a ring gear bottom out at the correct gap automatically:
I invite anyone interested to have a look. There are timestamps in the description and the Vado/Como hub is at 12:52.
@Captain Slow I somewhat agree with you: If I made something that had a wearable element inside it and charged people $100+ for it, then I would also make sure to include at least 2-3 wearable elements with the first order and then make them available separately for an insignificant price. However, as I wrote above - anyone who purchases a PLANET3 and just takes the time to listen and read to all the instructions - should not experience a worn out device for whatever the lifespan of the bike may be. And in the end, there's always the following point of view: I paid $4000+ for an e-bike which almost made me cry when I first hit the speed limit, then I paid a $100 for a device that made it be without the most evident problem (at least for me) and it lasted for 7500 km. Hell, I'd buy another one right away just so I don't have to deal with the speed limit. Anyway, I hate the cycling industry as such and their approach to quality and service which seems to be lacking everywhere you look (except certain bright spots like Syntace, for example), so I always aimed at providing a good product at a decent price with included express shipping (while the competition will charge you nearly half of the PLANET3 price for the same shipping experience) and customer support that's on par with anything out there (such as e*thirteen, if anyone ever had an experience with them, you know what I'm talking about).
All the surfaces that need to be smooth are achieved due to printing orientation. Top of the sun gear needs to be smooth so the sun gear base is printed upside down (top surface in contact with the perfectly flat bed), the planet (magnet carrier) is printed right side up since it's bottom is the one that needs to be smooth as it moves on top of the sun gear. One wouldn't believe the amount of racket produced by these parts if they're not smooth. However, the ring gear is also printed right side up since the top surface (one visible on the outside) needs to be smooth since it gets superglued clips (which are printed in the opposite orientation) which need to be smooth on their bottom. So, don't sand anything, people. In actuality, the bottom of the sun gear base I sand myself on a very very straight (machined) piece of stainless steel plate on top of which I put 3M CUBITRON sanding paper. This is done so that it can lay perfectly flat on the top surface of the braking rotor.
@willnottellyou @Stefan Mikes Stefan is mostly right when he says that no derestrictor will magically give you more watts/power in the bike. However, since I recently started developing a chip version of my own, I found out something somewhat interesting that I could've found out a lot sooner if I ever bothered to ride a stock/restricted e-bike for more than 30 seconds. PLANET3 actually gives you slightly more power when compared to the competition. Around 10-15% and you can feel it if you are really used to your bike or have a buddy with the same bike but his is stock. What actually happens is this: Specialized (and other manufacturers) tune their motors in such a way that they assist with the nominal/peak power only at slower speeds (say 10 km/h and below) and as your speed goes up the motor assistance has a gradual drop because they don't want the moment when you meet the speed limit to be an abrupt experience, so they try to smooth it out this way. So, since the PLANET3 makes the bike think it's always moving 3x slower than it is, it puts the motor in the range where it simply outputs more power due to the way it's tuned straight from the factory/store. I found this out when I went riding a prototype version of my chip which derestricts the speed limit but keeps all the values of speed/distance true and a riding buddy was on the same exact bike with a mechanical PLANET3. Same tires, same pressures, same level of general fitness, same gearing, wheel sizes etc. He left me for dead on every climb without even trying. Both bikes in Turbo mode, Shuttle ticked on, full assist. Next thing I did was write a firmware for the chip that made it behave just as the PLANET3 does.. guess what - more power right away.
@Art Deco (and everyone else who might care) Regarding your LBS' chain replacement statement.. don't listen to bike shop people. Not that I'm trying to put anyone down, but these people are technicians at best and at worst they're just people who liked to ride bikes and found themselves working in this industry. Their recommendations regarding chains, and anything else for that matter, range from absolutely useless to down-right detrimental. From an engineering perspective, it's relatively simple and I'd be honored if you stuck to some advice that I'm about to give you: Get cheap chains (I use PC-1110 NX 11-speed chains). Get 3-4-5 of them. For quality cassettes I go with 5 (talking about a milled cassette from billet), for cheaper ones 3 will do. Make sure they're of sufficient length links wise based on your current setup. Get a ParkTool CC-2 chain checker, this is not a go-no-go type of gauge as @Deacon Blues suggest at the top of Page 5. Yes, it's expensive. Get it anyway. This one will actually measure. New chain will already show 0.25% "stretch" because the tool doesn't compensate for roller gap/play. This is normal and the important measure is pin-to-pin distance or pitch which is 1/2". Now, ride your chain until the tool shows 0.5% (which will be 0.25% actual wear), then put on a new chain and store this one. Keep doing so until all chains are at 0.5%, then ride the one that's on until 0.75%, then rotate again until all are at 0.75% and all are at ~1%. Replace chains, cassette, chainring and say "Thank you, Alex for providing me with 4-5x the range for the $10-14 price of a NX chain!" Also, new chains should be washed in brake cleaner with acetone to remove the stickiest compound on Earth that they're conserved in. This is not chain lube. Wash until it's not sticky to touch any more and completely dry. Then lube. I use Squirt which is the best invention ever. Use whatever you want / whatever your riding conditions require. What will happen if you ride a chain beyond 0.5% stretch (especially on a Vado/Como) is this: since these bikes are road going bikes, we'll assume you spend most of your time on flat tarmac - this means that other than accelerating from standstill, you will spend most of your time in high gears meaning smallest cogs on the cassette. Smallest cogs have the smallest teeth count and chain wrap is problematic on them (how much the chain wraps around a cog is important as more teeth are in engagement) - this can be somewhat fixed with neat gizmos such as Wolftooth GoatLink and replacement derailleur cages for some derailleurs. I got a GoatLink 11 and a Garbaruk cage on my Levo and it significantly improves chain wrap in high gears without sacrificing shifting performance up to low gears (large cogs). So, even if you increase chain wrap and everything is ideal, ebikes have a lot more power and riding high gears will always mean significant wear on them (especially). So, your stretched chain will effective start eating away at the cassette which has the same 1/2" pitch between its teeth and if you allow this to go to 0.75% stretch or even 1% (which is when bike shops will tell you to replace a chain), once you put on a new chain that has the correct pitch again - now your cassette has a somewhat larger pitch because it was milled away by the old chain. Get ready for poor shifting, cracks and snaps when you put force into the pedals and very very increased chain wear on the new chain. So, the idea with multiple chains in rotation solves this problem. Having a new chain each 0.25% of wear will mean they're still within the pitch range where you won't feel these problems and everything can wear out gradually and in sync. Once it's all gone, replace the cassette, front chainring and get a new set of 3-5 chains. I was doing this way before the era of e-bikes but with the added motor power it's now almost mandatory.
In any case, my apologies for the lack of response and activity here but I do always answer emails from customers so the best way to get in touch if one needs me is via info[at]planet3(dot)bike.Now I'll tackle some stuff in order of appearance.
First off, the wear problem as posted by @MarcoVado. This version of the PLANET3 was the very first one released and the one that I rode for more than 9000 km on a Turbo Levo from 2019. However, there was one mistake that I basically made in the design and that were the clips of the ring gear. It's not really that I "made a mistake" in as much as I could've saved users from themselves if I only thought one more step ahead (which I now did and it's all fixed). The problem was that the ring gear still relied on the very very exact proper installation depth and each user at the time received this short video explaining the proper alignment which was necessary for long-term wear-free operation:
Recently I made another video and a new tool to help users who had hubs with no geometry that I could use to make a ring gear bottom out at the correct gap automatically:
@Captain Slow I somewhat agree with you: If I made something that had a wearable element inside it and charged people $100+ for it, then I would also make sure to include at least 2-3 wearable elements with the first order and then make them available separately for an insignificant price. However, as I wrote above - anyone who purchases a PLANET3 and just takes the time to listen and read to all the instructions - should not experience a worn out device for whatever the lifespan of the bike may be. And in the end, there's always the following point of view: I paid $4000+ for an e-bike which almost made me cry when I first hit the speed limit, then I paid a $100 for a device that made it be without the most evident problem (at least for me) and it lasted for 7500 km. Hell, I'd buy another one right away just so I don't have to deal with the speed limit. Anyway, I hate the cycling industry as such and their approach to quality and service which seems to be lacking everywhere you look (except certain bright spots like Syntace, for example), so I always aimed at providing a good product at a decent price with included express shipping (while the competition will charge you nearly half of the PLANET3 price for the same shipping experience) and customer support that's on par with anything out there (such as e*thirteen, if anyone ever had an experience with them, you know what I'm talking about).
The surface you sanded is never actually in contact with anything and is smooth within less than a tenth of a millimeter at the moment it comes from a very very calibrated printer.
All the surfaces that need to be smooth are achieved due to printing orientation. Top of the sun gear needs to be smooth so the sun gear base is printed upside down (top surface in contact with the perfectly flat bed), the planet (magnet carrier) is printed right side up since it's bottom is the one that needs to be smooth as it moves on top of the sun gear. One wouldn't believe the amount of racket produced by these parts if they're not smooth. However, the ring gear is also printed right side up since the top surface (one visible on the outside) needs to be smooth since it gets superglued clips (which are printed in the opposite orientation) which need to be smooth on their bottom. So, don't sand anything, people. In actuality, the bottom of the sun gear base I sand myself on a very very straight (machined) piece of stainless steel plate on top of which I put 3M CUBITRON sanding paper. This is done so that it can lay perfectly flat on the top surface of the braking rotor.@willnottellyou @Stefan Mikes Stefan is mostly right when he says that no derestrictor will magically give you more watts/power in the bike. However, since I recently started developing a chip version of my own, I found out something somewhat interesting that I could've found out a lot sooner if I ever bothered to ride a stock/restricted e-bike for more than 30 seconds.
PLANET3 actually gives you slightly more power when compared to the competition. Around 10-15% and you can feel it if you are really used to your bike or have a buddy with the same bike but his is stock. What actually happens is this: Specialized (and other manufacturers) tune their motors in such a way that they assist with the nominal/peak power only at slower speeds (say 10 km/h and below) and as your speed goes up the motor assistance has a gradual drop because they don't want the moment when you meet the speed limit to be an abrupt experience, so they try to smooth it out this way. So, since the PLANET3 makes the bike think it's always moving 3x slower than it is, it puts the motor in the range where it simply outputs more power due to the way it's tuned straight from the factory/store. I found this out when I went riding a prototype version of my chip which derestricts the speed limit but keeps all the values of speed/distance true and a riding buddy was on the same exact bike with a mechanical PLANET3. Same tires, same pressures, same level of general fitness, same gearing, wheel sizes etc. He left me for dead on every climb without even trying. Both bikes in Turbo mode, Shuttle ticked on, full assist. Next thing I did was write a firmware for the chip that made it behave just as the PLANET3 does.. guess what - more power right away. @Art Deco (and everyone else who might care) Regarding your LBS' chain replacement statement.. don't listen to bike shop people. Not that I'm trying to put anyone down, but these people are technicians at best and at worst they're just people who liked to ride bikes and found themselves working in this industry. Their recommendations regarding chains, and anything else for that matter, range from absolutely useless to down-right detrimental. From an engineering perspective, it's relatively simple and I'd be honored if you stuck to some advice that I'm about to give you: Get cheap chains (I use PC-1110 NX 11-speed chains). Get 3-4-5 of them. For quality cassettes I go with 5 (talking about a milled cassette from billet), for cheaper ones 3 will do. Make sure they're of sufficient length links wise based on your current setup. Get a ParkTool CC-2 chain checker, this is not a go-no-go type of gauge as @Deacon Blues suggest at the top of Page 5. Yes, it's expensive. Get it anyway. This one will actually measure. New chain will already show 0.25% "stretch" because the tool doesn't compensate for roller gap/play. This is normal and the important measure is pin-to-pin distance or pitch which is 1/2". Now, ride your chain until the tool shows 0.5% (which will be 0.25% actual wear), then put on a new chain and store this one. Keep doing so until all chains are at 0.5%, then ride the one that's on until 0.75%, then rotate again until all are at 0.75% and all are at ~1%. Replace chains, cassette, chainring and say "Thank you, Alex for providing me with 4-5x the range for the $10-14 price of a NX chain!" Also, new chains should be washed in brake cleaner with acetone to remove the stickiest compound on Earth that they're conserved in. This is not chain lube. Wash until it's not sticky to touch any more and completely dry. Then lube. I use Squirt which is the best invention ever. Use whatever you want / whatever your riding conditions require. What will happen if you ride a chain beyond 0.5% stretch (especially on a Vado/Como) is this: since these bikes are road going bikes, we'll assume you spend most of your time on flat tarmac - this means that other than accelerating from standstill, you will spend most of your time in high gears meaning smallest cogs on the cassette. Smallest cogs have the smallest teeth count and chain wrap is problematic on them (how much the chain wraps around a cog is important as more teeth are in engagement) - this can be somewhat fixed with neat gizmos such as Wolftooth GoatLink and replacement derailleur cages for some derailleurs. I got a GoatLink 11 and a Garbaruk cage on my Levo and it significantly improves chain wrap in high gears without sacrificing shifting performance up to low gears (large cogs). So, even if you increase chain wrap and everything is ideal, ebikes have a lot more power and riding high gears will always mean significant wear on them (especially). So, your stretched chain will effective start eating away at the cassette which has the same 1/2" pitch between its teeth and if you allow this to go to 0.75% stretch or even 1% (which is when bike shops will tell you to replace a chain), once you put on a new chain that has the correct pitch again - now your cassette has a somewhat larger pitch because it was milled away by the old chain. Get ready for poor shifting, cracks and snaps when you put force into the pedals and very very increased chain wear on the new chain. So, the idea with multiple chains in rotation solves this problem. Having a new chain each 0.25% of wear will mean they're still within the pitch range where you won't feel these problems and everything can wear out gradually and in sync. Once it's all gone, replace the cassette, front chainring and get a new set of 3-5 chains. I was doing this way before the era of e-bikes but with the added motor power it's now almost mandatory.
ChezCheese:)
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Kitsap Co, WA
Goodness! That's going to take me a month to parse, Alex... 
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
Very true, @Alex @ PLANET3.bike. I can notice that on my Vado SL. When derestricted, it is accelerating to, say, 25 km/h noticeably faster than with the restrictor on.
AussieCreo
New Member
- Region
- Australia
How is it going Mark? I have just received one ofr my bike and looking forward to experiencing the Planet3 effect! Such a cool invention!
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