Ongoing issues with LMTD
- Thread starter LAMike240
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Fn’F,
22 miles was not my max range on that ride, just my distance. In the future I’ll put % or voltage remaining at end of ride, alongside the mileage.
@krdugger thanks to you and Ryan, I’m enjoying my ride since the new controller and display. Much appreciated.
Yeah, I made that change first thing when I got my 700.
Fast n' Furious
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Yeah. That must have really reduced the machines potential - or you were content with making it's limitations worse, considering 700 has less than half (48nm) the Ltd's MXUS (100nm) torque and weighs 62 lbs, while Ltd's weigh 53 (17% less) and, considering, as Grin says about the current Shengyi Motor: Medium Power Levels: This motor is ideal when you need a lightweight geared motor for somewhat higher power or speed levels than the Bafang G31X's, but don't need to go as far as the more expensive eZee or GMAC motors.
I'm working on getting them to match up the simulator for the current MXUS C12. But with a decent controller, the older MXUS motor exceeds the GMAC's torque output on Grin's simulator. In this case, one size does not fit all and fixed power percentages will produce entirely different characteristics/ capabilities. For instance. An Ltd will fly up hills yours can't - if both running 19% power. Your setting should be 25% or whatever or you are going to stall, while the Ltd flies by, at 19% in high gear.
Why not you publish your "changes" and share a bit with the community?
I'm curious where you obtained the idea to use those settings? You make it sound like it's "duh", but we can't all be geniuses..
I for one appreciate all 'documented' (and verified) improvements.
Got any?
Snap-shot of the Display/ Controller settings you "made first thing" would be nice. You could help other 700 owners.
Fast n' Furious
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So, now at my current settings my speedometer quit and the bike runs like a banshee.
From the wind force, I'm hitting 30mph. Level 2 (Display setting) feels like 100% assist - with the , now 8amp cutoff setting.
I need some guidance here.
I'm working long hours next few days, then I'll pore over your recommendations and the knowledge base.
"PAS 0. 14A
PAS 1. 08A
PAS 2. 14A
PAS 3. 22A
... and as krduggar says "setting the display to voltage".
I suspect another setting is incorrect and the additional amp is causing effects, but the speedo issue has me baffled.
Any references or Snapshots of displays setting would be helpful.
Not so sure I want to add a higher amp controller now. 8amps is plenty.
Thank you for the useful input
Fn'F
The setting that Kevin and I referred to does NOT reduce the bike's potential or increase any limitations. Changing my display for the battery to show voltage (which Kevin also recommended & I responded to) instead of showing percentage has ZERO effect on the potential of anything with the e-bike That's just a display metric that the user can see to know how much battery power is left rather than the inaccurate percentage reading that is the default. It doesn't have anything to do with climbing hills, which has worked fine for me. As for helping "700 users", I've been providing detailed feedback in many posts here and in the R1UFB group to assist users of various models of e-bikes for quite some time.
But since you asked for a snapshot of where to change that setting, I am taking a snapshot of the default setting, which is percentage. Just change it to voltage to make the change Kevin mentioned and that I stated I had made to my bike first thing. Again, that's not going to limit the "machine" in any way.
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Don't panic. That "4" probably wasn't your max in your highest assist level. I bet you were in a low assist level when you went into settings. On the current generation, there isn't just a "single global" current setting for amps. They changed how those work last year (LMT'D as well, as per LAmike's example in previous post.) See video below - I bookmarked it to that point in the video where it's mentioned. The current setting is PER assist level and will even vary depending on which assist range you are using. So you have to set your assist level, then go into advanced settings to make the change for that assist level. Then save/exit the settings, change your assist level to go back in to check the max current for another assist level. And on some of them, like my 700, it won't keep the setting for previously changed assist levels' current settings once you exit advanced settings, toggle the assist level by one and then back, and go back into advanced settings. If appears to save the change if you go back in without toggling the assist level. But if you toggle the assist level, then go back into advanced settings, it returns to the default. And that applies to at least some LMT'D bikes as well. Someone on FB first posted a video of his LMT'D display showing that behavior, and I confirmed the same on my 700. This is the video from his LMT'D: https://photos.app.goo.gl/kwRCuJ6cfomifUzaA
But on my 700, it defaults to 16, 17, 18 AMPs in the highest assist level depending on the assist level range configured and was providing around 980 watts or so in PAS 9 set to 100% with about about 50 volts reading on the battery (it's much less on a low battery). I only tested that briefly a few times and typically ride at 0 W to 130 W using constant muscle power boosting assist up to 300 to 500 watts on the steepest hills. Other than testing, I haven't had a need to use maximum PAS. So, it's working fine with those default current settings that I can't change anyway.
Note - Ride1Up has recommended not changing those percentages on the LMT'D because of how they have optimized them for the torque sensor. The 700 uses a cadence sensor. Someone on FB was having terrible performance with his LMT'D, maxing out at 35 W, but after some additional changes, he got it working well again. He didn't mention whether he reset his display, but if my display wasn't displaying my speed, I would try that after first trying to power cycle and even removing the battery temporarily.
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Video bookmarked to the info on current (amps) setting being PER assist level:
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Fast n' Furious
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Thank you. No electronic engineering huh. Well, life skills education is good too and I'm glad I'm talking to experience.
Maybe you can publish where we can get racks that fit right? From personal experience of course..
I wanted a snapshot of PAS sensor settings. lol. Nice though. Yeah. My Ltd came set that way.
I miscommunicated.
I'm inquiring regarding the best level of Ltd's PAS settings - From owners experience. They appear to be different than other R1U bikes, and aren't there controller features accessible that are not on other bikes? Would setting a (15amp) 700 to an 20 Amp limit be different than setting an 20amp) Ltd at the same 20amps?
What are the optimum settings? Would limiting the controller to 20amps be a problem?
I confess, I'm trying to grasp an understanding here.
We can agree to disagree when I say: "a 19% power setting will NOT and CAN NOT provide a 500watt, 48nm motor the same performance or the same nm as a 1000Watt 100nm motor at it's 19% power setting", because 19% of 1000 is 190watts, but 19% of 500 is 95watts. Watts = ergs of energy", I'm talking about motor's consumption (19% of it's rated power), not battery usage. So you are 100% correct !!!
I'm inquiring about setting my controller to the best spot for the PAS and I was amazed at the mileage others were getting.
As another has said, any CONSTRUCTIVE input would is appreciated.
Peace out
Fn'F
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Fast n' Furious
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Now that's CONSTRUCTIVE ... and humbly welcomed.Don't panic. That "4" probably wasn't your max in your highest assist level. I bet you were in a low assist level when you went into settings. On the current generation, there isn't just a "single global" current setting for amps. They changed how those work last year (LMT'D as well, as per LAmike's example in previous post.) See video below - I bookmarked it to that point in the video where it's mentioned. The current setting is PER assist level and will even vary depending on which assist range you are using. So you have to set your assist level, then go into advanced settings to make the change for that assist level. Then save/exit the settings, change your assist level to go back in to check the max current for another assist level. And on some of them, like my 700, it won't keep the setting for previously changed assist levels' current settings once you exit advanced settings, toggle the assist level by one and then back, and go back into advanced settings. If appears to save the change if you go back in without toggling the assist level. But if you toggle the assist level, then go back into advanced settings, it returns to the default. And that applies to at least some LMT'D bikes as well. Someone on FB first posted a video of his LMT'D display showing that behavior, and I confirmed the same on my 700. This is the video from his LMT'D: https://photos.app.goo.gl/kwRCuJ6cfomifUzaA
But on my 700, it defaults to 16, 17, 18 AMPs in the highest assist level depending on the assist level range configured and was providing around 980 watts or so in PAS 9 set to 100% with about about 50 volts reading on the battery (it's much less on a low battery). I only tested that briefly a few times and typically ride at 0 W to 130 W using constant muscle power boosting assist up to 300 to 500 watts on the steepest hills. Other than testing, I haven't had a need to use maximum PAS. So, it's working fine with those default current settings that I can't change anyway.
Note - Ride1Up has recommended not changing those percentages on the LMT'D because of how they have optimized them for the torque sensor. The 700 uses a cadence sensor. Someone on FB was having terrible performance with his LMT'D, maxing out at 35 W, but after some additional changes, he got it working well again. He didn't mention whether he reset his display, but if my display wasn't displaying my speed, I would try that after first trying to power cycle and even removing the battery temporarily.
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Video bookmarked to the info on current (amps) setting being PER assist level:
The bike is now much faster. Not double, but noticeably/ nearly. Vey smooth now.
I set the assist to 0 - 3 (and I tried 0 - 5) still no speedo. Odometer is also stuck. Etc.
I pulled the battery, same same. What's the difference between 0 - 3 and 1 - 3 ? Hmmmmmmm ?
Settings available are from 0 - 3 to 1 - 9 (1 or 0 through 3, 5, 7 or 9. Eight combinations).
The (factory preset) Power set for "0 - 3" = 30%; 65%; 99% .
Reset Power Set to 0 - 5 =14, 23, 36, 50, 82% - and same problems, no change. Reset battery, etc. No change.
Because I left the % values unchanged, I can't speak to the reverting problem. The Power Set stayed the same as when I toggled out.
Note: I suspect some REAL differences (possibly in available settings too) between the software for cadence sensor and the torque types.
Also ... I keep saying this, and cause of confusion is mine - for using % instead of current - nevertheless: 30% of power = a specific, FIXED % of the total current powering 60nm; whereas that same 30% of the available total would underpower and limit the 100nm MXUS motor.
Am I incorrect ?
Okay. So, then if not is the %'s = 'the power being used from the battery to the motor' (current limitation), or the power the motor is developing regardless of current usage?
No matter. It comes out the same: A more powerful motor would be as strangled at the same fixed % of battery power use settings (limiting RPM) as one 1/3 less powerful, and would also be unable to use the current to develop the same RPM as the lesser motor, or develop any power beyond the limitations of the lesser motor's settings.
Thus, I can't see how one-size-fits all settings can even be close to optimal with such a "potential" power differences.
Empirical Statement time. FACT: Being equal and of relative scope 'Limiting the allocated current limits all motors rated above that "limit" to that performance - or less ('less' because of larger windings and magnets, having larger power potential = increased resistance requiring more current / energy inefficiency, but more power).
I hope I'm making sense here. I'm assuming the percentages relate to the motor's power potential, not the batteries fixed % output, but either way it leads to the same result: An Ltd using the same settings as a 700 simply can't be correct.
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The settings must be based upon the smoothest most efficient use of a specific motors torque curve/ battery usage algorithm software, not 'this works for another bike'.
Different levels "Sport; Athlete; Relaxed", (allocated percentages in our case) various parameter settings for that specific machine - just like an electric Car. One can't use the same fixed "sport" settings from a Prius on a Tesla S.
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My Voltage is set for 48V, but it registers as 51V.
I set the magnets to 12 -- on scant info (sheesh. Come on R1U). It was set for 24. How many magnets in that MXUS ?
Speed Sensor's were at 4. I changed to to 12.
12 magnets, 12 sensors. Am I missing something? Should I use "virtual" magnets? What difference does it make?
I set my Current Limit to 20Amp. Tried 10Amps, seemed no different.
My two cents: I think current limit should be set to Motor's max usage (20Amps) / controllers potential (22Amps), whichever is less = 20 Amps.
I wondered if I should use the 11Amp nominal rating? But then I wouldn't even have access to the 22Amps my MXUS craves for those bursts, uphill, shifting gears, going full bore for a block or so. Yeah @ 10amps. right. for some other bike, perfect.
Bike is very fast[er], much smoother and the noise from the motor no longer that crunchy crackling grumble sound (I couldn't help visualizing a lightning storm shorting out in the casing).
Now it's more like a more uniform, humming, a bit crunchy buzz of high current. Maybe that previous sound was incorrect and presaged another problem? I only know my old Porsche used to sound like it was a disintegrating sewing machine and that was 100% correct.
I read I might have a loose magnet, but that was old, stale and based upon a Bafang motor problem.
My take: Most probable, the controller is dying.
Inappropriate to blame R1U. Sure. R1U could use (NA or EU made) controllers that cost 15 x the price - and the installation would interfere with the supply/ delivery chain - so we'd be paying a monster premium. PLEASE DON'T.
Occasionally, I see a blip on the speedo display. If it says 1.2 mph, I'm running 25mph'ish (factor of 20 x
Any links or other info on speedo fail? Not critical but annoying.
It went up to "29.5mph" and everything froze. Previous "Max" information vanished. The display dimmed by 50%.
So, I > LCD setting = Perfect. So, I > Off. Restarted and display was full bright again, but some performance history information erased/ changed and no speedo, trip etc.
The display setting is at 31mph and the bike has often exceeded 31mph before any changes. Not sure if the history even showed it. Speedo did. Never broke 32mph that I'm aware of. Never checked.
Thank you for the insight. I've been looking at your posts and from the breadth of your knowledge I see why you're prominent in the community. I appreciate your taking your time.
Below is my baby, (1) full kit on bars; (2) rear fender on (after rain) and laser lit for the downtown evening; (3) stripped down for a recent winter day ride.
Fn'F
@krduggar
On today's ride with ambient temps about 85, and the longest hills yet, the bike did trigger what we are assuming to be overheat protection. The power did come back after a couple of restarts within a minute. It then proceeded to cut out again within 30 seconds, still on the hill.
When it cut out again, I did NOT cycle the display this time, but let the controller cool down enough for power to comeback.
After a long downhill with no PAS, I engaged PAS 1 and immediately the bike felt as if it was being held back. The road at this point was relatively flat. In PAS 1, I could not get the watts to exceed 75. PAS 2/3 worked fine. No matter how many restarts of the system, I could not get PAS 1 to engage properly and actually assist the ride.
I'll be contacting Support / Ryan Monday morning with additional information. This is controller 4, display 2.
Thank you,
Michael
On today's ride with ambient temps about 85, and the longest hills yet, the bike did trigger what we are assuming to be overheat protection. The power did come back after a couple of restarts within a minute. It then proceeded to cut out again within 30 seconds, still on the hill.
When it cut out again, I did NOT cycle the display this time, but let the controller cool down enough for power to comeback.
After a long downhill with no PAS, I engaged PAS 1 and immediately the bike felt as if it was being held back. The road at this point was relatively flat. In PAS 1, I could not get the watts to exceed 75. PAS 2/3 worked fine. No matter how many restarts of the system, I could not get PAS 1 to engage properly and actually assist the ride.
I'll be contacting Support / Ryan Monday morning with additional information. This is controller 4, display 2.
Thank you,
Michael
Fast n' Furious
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Michael ...
A couple things: It sounds like you are running Powerset 0 -3. Have you tried 1 - 3. Are the percentages set where there is any assist in "1" of 1 - 3? Perhaps setting 33% 66%, 99% will help?
My machine is also acting erratic, sometimes providing PAS, others not. Speedo is dead. Could this be the PAS? Have to study up next weekend.
Where does the idea that this MXUS has a thermal control built originate? The direct drive model has a thermistor built in. I don't see the geared hub showing that spec. I know MAC's don't unless ordered that way as an extra.
Not a lot of info on the MXUS XF19C (A.K.A GDR19).
...................
Mt KD218 Ltd display Manual says: ◆Speed Sensor ... Speed Sensor represents speed sensor settings. The default value is 1.
To change speed sensor settings, press the “+” or the “-” button to select the
corresponding quantity of magnet poles (the range is from 1 to 15).
To store a changed setting, press the “ON/OFF” button.
.................
Nice. So how many magnets for the Ltd ?
Solved: Alibaba says "10 Magnet Poles (2P)". https://mxus.en.alibaba.com/product...otor_for_electric_bicycle_conversion_kit.html
R1U could tell ya, but they'd have'ta ill ya, etc.
Before someone - who has a cadence sensor, not a torque type - smugly says "Yeah. I knew that", consider. They couldn't because different motors (like the 48V Geared Hub Shengyi Motor in the 700, which has either 16 or 20 poles) - have different amounts of magnets.
See: http://www.syimotor.com/product_3-2.html ... Hard to tell which because R1U has not supplied the Mod No, an owner can look on the casing, but it's either 16 or 20, not 10 like the MXUS.
This begs the Question: If the setting only goes from "1 to 15", what about the 700's 16 or 20 pole Shengyi motor ??? LOL
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Next, the Manual says: ◆Power Assistant Sensor Settings
Assistant Num represents PAS magnet quantity settings. The setting value is “5” to
“24” which refers to the number of magnets on PAS disk. The default value is 12.
To change the magnet quantity of PAS sensor, press the “+” or the “-” button to
choose the desired number of PAS magnets.
To store a changed setting, press the “ON/OFF” button.
.......................
What is the proper setting? Why 12 ?
Should it be different?
Why? What are the specs? Where are the specs? What model #, brand, manufacturer is the PAS sensor?
Why is this information not provided with the machine? It should be in the manual. Why are we left guessing ?
....................
BTW, I heard back from Grin. We can't use our displays. Back to the drawing board.
Keep me abreast if you change your controller. It's pretty easy if you haven't.
Fn'F
Thanks,
Fn'F
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Fast n' Furious
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Roughly 1/3 allocated to each level. That sounds logical, but my understanding is "0 to 3" = 4, and "1 to 3" = 3.
Perhaps Kevin can tell us if it was specified in the build. If not, it doesn't have it.
The reason I say this, a while back my bike 'overamped' (best I can put it), the display sensed it and flashed red, but the power did not cut off.
Alibaba says temp sensor is "optional" ( sees below).
I'd think overcurrent message should = enough heat to trigger a thermistor cut-out.
It didn't.
Have you tried the 0 - 5/ 1 -5 settings with similar results?
Fn'F
Perhaps Kevin can tell us if it was specified in the build. If not, it doesn't have it.
The reason I say this, a while back my bike 'overamped' (best I can put it), the display sensed it and flashed red, but the power did not cut off.
Alibaba says temp sensor is "optional" ( sees below).
| Rated Voltage (V) | 48/60 | Wheel & spokes | 10G/20-28inch |
| Rated Power (W) | 750-1000w | Brake Type | Disc Brake |
| Wheel size (inch) | 20-28 | Weight (kg) | 5 |
| Rated speed (km/h) | 25-45 | Open Size (mm) | 100 |
| Temperature sensor | Optional | Hallsensor | Double |
| Noise Grade (dB) | ≤60 | IP Grade | IP54 |
It didn't.
Have you tried the 0 - 5/ 1 -5 settings with similar results?
Fn'F
I have not tried the 0-5 settings.
This coming weekend, I plan to switch bikes with a friend of mine who has the same LMTD We bought at the same time. We are going to take on the same hills, hopefully ambient temps are the same. I’ll try to replicate with his bike. If I can’t, there is definitely still an issue. Only things not replaced are motor and torque sensor.
Fast n' Furious
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Keep me abreast.
Fn'F
Fn'F
Fn’F,
It looks like there have been some really good updates to the knowledge base FAQs on the R1U website. A lot more specific detailed information.
This one pertains to hills, amperage and ability.
https://ride1up.freshdesk.com/a/solutions/articles/65000172856
Fast n' Furious
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Do you have a dead controller? I have a retired electronic circuitry engineer relative that'd like to take a look at one. Another reason, I can map out the plugs/ wiring to locate as plug-and-play a module as possible.
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After the Grin disappointment, I'm still looking for a 'proper' controller. I doubt anyone wants to give up our great displays for grins 15 year old B&W LCD's - and (if I'm reading them right) their controllers are analog signal so our digital won't work. Another $150 for the Cycle Analyst on top of that.
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Our needs, a 48V (Most are 36 - 60V), 15 x 30amp (or even 17 X 35amp) controller should be simple.
Forums say this very motor will pull +1500watts an a hill at wide open throttle.
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I don't think it has thermistor protection - and will stay skeptic until shown otherwise - in the motor's order specs or advertising literature.
Nowhere does R1U 'officially' say "thermal protection". My 'idiot's guide to GH motor's' understanding is: The cut-off being the motor's RPM vs Watts required/ diminishing return/ efficiency curve, a long hill would risk excess heat.
I get that from Grin's motor simulator and information database https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html and their explaination regarding e-bike power ratings https://ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html.
One could install a thermistor (best option); (via the display), reduce the current draw allowed (reducing the bike's potential performance - like the present controller does), or aware of the effect, keep the juice, making the extra torque and power available and use with discretion.
Where are the complaints? This motor is not brand new - I think 3 years old and People are amping them up, yet I don't see the meltdowns.
There are a lot of these motor's in kits, so there should be plenty of heat failures. Surf 'Bafang thermal failures'.
That I can't find one refence to this motor losing magnets, the lacquer melting or it burning up (over thermal symptoms) - unlike, Older MXUS types, makes me conclude it has some heat-limiting factor protecting it.
As a knowledgeable, 'hands-on' owner of this particular machine, I place a high value on any information you ferret out. Do you have any research on aftermarket controllers you can share? Would you say the new controller acted 'entirely' different from the one replaced?
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While you're riding that hill, I'll be tearing down the battery housing and verifying every last connection is bulletproof sealed. Then, reset, etc. .
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And again (this could be very important), when I did the throttle replacement I noticed the stock connectors were NOT real JST-SM (???) type, but rather downgraded copy-cats. In fact the wiring for the stock thumb throttle was 2 sizes smaller gauge (so small my strippers wouldn't work) than the after market twist throttle's - which also had a 'real' JST plug on the end.
Okay, yes these are 'signal wires', who cares?
If the known wires and connectors are an indication the overall specs of the rest of the controller - wherever they could save and thought it would work.
This discovery begs the question: What else in there is sub-standard, out of spec that does matter?
Can't draw sufficient current from wrong size wires.
Completely insane the USA should be MIA. Best electronics on the planet. It's clear from looking at the websites that do sell quality controllers, endless "out of stock" notices, the market need is not being met.
Happy trails,
Fn'F
Fast n' Furious
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Thanks, I'll read it.
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