Chris Hammond
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Based on the reliability and price of their cars, I think I'll pass.
Okay, talk me out of cancelling my CCS order
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FMG III
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...yeah you don't want to mess with that. Wait for the CCS.
I test rode the Super Commuter. Having test ridden a bunch of Stromers it basically feels like a mid-drive Stromer to me (and that’s not a bad thing.) I’m a fan of the Bosch Performance Line in general so it’s definitely no complaints about the responsiveness. But the system peaks around 550-600W with a full battery so I can see it starting to struggle to maintain ~28mph as you get below 50% battery. I’m also of the opinion that a class 3 bike should have a suspension fork (or the option to add one.) Anyone who says they don’t need a suspension fork either has really smooth roads or hasn’t spent much time cruising at 28mph. I also just don’t understand how manufacturers can still justify charging $4-5k for a bike with a 500Wh battery in 2018.
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Asher
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Ravi and I think Court have spoken well of the carbon fork with balloon tire combo for pavement. Coming from a road bike, I'd like to try it too.
I guess you didn't try going 28 mph on your ride?
I took the Super Commuter up as fast as it would go but I don’t remember the exact speed. I’ve ridden a bunch of Stromers and I always get off them thinking that rigid forks and high speed riding don’t mix. I’ve seen Ravi post on the forums that he considers suspension forks mandatory when cruising over 20mph for extended periods of time. There’s only so much cushion a carbon fork and balloon tire can provide. Just IMO but anyone who says they don’t need a suspension fork typically hasn’t spent a lot of time cruising at 25mph+ on an e-bike (or they ride a fat bike.)
Ravi Kempaiah
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It's fairly rare that you get to maintain 28mph on any commute route.
I used to commute 60 mile round trip (DC to Annapolis) and had few stretches of 2-3 miles where I could do 30mph, but other than that, top speed was always limited to ~25mph because of traffic and other things.
If one is able to maintain 28mph for longer than 5 miles that means, very less traffic and the roads are very good.
Up until 2017 summer, I hadn't experimented with carbon forks. But, then I experimented with few big volume tires and light carbon forks, my perspective completely changed after that. Combine that with Body Float seatpost, you really don't need suspension for city riding.
The more I rode the carbon fork and high volume tires at different pressures, it became clear that none of the suspension forks could adapt to small bumps like the way big tires did. Now, it applies only to paved surfaces. If one is riding on unpaved trails, then of course suspension helps.
Off-road, you're relatively moving slow and the suspension can adapt to the surface beneath.
What do you consider "big volume" tires?
Ravi Kempaiah
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Schwalbe Super Moto X - 2.4" and 2.8" for 27.5" wheels.
Maaxis Hookworm 29" x 2.5" (big 29er bikes)
Schwalbe Big Apple Plus or Almotion or Schwalbe G-one ( 2.15"/2.25" tires for 700c rims).
Asher
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Do you think the industry as a whole will move in that direction, for commuter ebikes? And I guess you couldn't do this with a CCS since the rear clearance is limited?
The Trek with double the watt hours and power sounds pretty ideal to me, if it comes down to $2,500 or so from other makers. 2019 Juiced Swift Current...
Ravi Kempaiah
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I think bike engineers are well aware of that fact.
Cheap suntour forks are like cheap android tablets. Looks functional but doesn't do anything beyond simple web browsing, videos...
Many Trek (Super Commuter, Cross Rip +) and Giant (Quick E, Toughroad +) and even Raleigh (Tamland, Redux) commuter bikes use rigid forks and 2+ " tires.
The main advantage I see is, the front end becomes light, low maintenance and if you run big tires at low pressure, you get lots of traction and still feel the road. You could easily shave off 2lbs by switching to carbon forks. The downside is they are expensive. But there are pretty light Al forks as well.
Chris Hammond
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Perhaps the carbon fork is part of the reason I enjoyed the SuperCommuter ride. The bike felt very responsive. The tires felt great and smooth. My test ride was fairly short, (20 minutes or so), but I didn't feel any need for front suspension. I took the bike off a curb, and the big tires handled it fine. My commuting for many years has been on a road bike with a carbon fork and 700c x 25 tires inflated to 115 psi. Most of the time I think the ride is fine, but I do need to avoid big bumps especially at speed. After this ride, I do see the potential benefits of a bigger tire that is not fat bike big.
Reid
Well-Known Member
Although I get satisfactory service from my properly adjusted Suntour oil damped coil fork, Ravi is right!
The issue is unsprung weight. The balloon tire at low pressure springs ALL the weight upon it. A suspension fork, however, has the inertia of the entire tire and wheel and movable fork portion to control. The mass of this reciprocating group wags the dog. None of that obtains in a balloon tire.
The auto industry went practically overnight from high pressure tires to low pressure "balloon" tires in 1924. And this law of physics, that a low pressure tire behaves inherently better when bumped because the bump is absorbed and damped right where it starts, has never gone out of style.
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Like the name - is there really going to be another bike to the line up??
Asher
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Lol no. But it's a logical next step if the Trek type ebike takes off. Maybe as a Hype model first. "Hyper Swift".
Chris Hammond
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I'm not sure there's much room in the design (at least within legal limits) for Juiced to go in order to increase traveling speeds for the CCS. Obviously the could increase the motor size up to 750W from the 650W. I'm guessing going with a carbon fork and bigger, lower pressure tires, would actually increase rolling resistance enough to offset the gains of lighter weight and improved aero of the fork. Obviously this would depend greatly on both the tire choice and pressure its run at.
Personally I plan on riding with my front shock turned off nearly all the time and tires inflated to near max pressure. If I find it a problem with harder than expected hits over bumps at speed I may change my mind. I doubt it though considering being used to riding a road bike.
Personally I plan on riding with my front shock turned off nearly all the time and tires inflated to near max pressure. If I find it a problem with harder than expected hits over bumps at speed I may change my mind. I doubt it though considering being used to riding a road bike.
Ravi Kempaiah
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You're absolutely right, Reid!
One of the biggest manufacturers of tires Schwalbe has been producing tons of "balloon" tires just for this reason. They have a dedicated page to explain the benefits.
https://www.schwalbe.com/en/balloonbikes.html
@Chris Hammond , it's interesting to see that Schwalbe folks think balloon tires enjoy lower rolling resistance.
The number of vibrations felt by the rider .... an interesting graph.
Not sure how they conducted the experiment but it sure has some truth to it.
Chris Hammond
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That's interesting Ravi. There is clearly a dynamic going on here that doesn't add up. As a road biker, fatter tires are slower. Road racing bikes will use 700c x 19mm rubber and tire pressures >120 psi. On the other end of the spectrum fat bike tires are slower than nearly everything else. The comfort part clearly makes sense, bigger tires at lower pressures are going to ride smoother. Fat bikes are popular because of this. Schwalbe's data on rolling resistance brings a big ????. The chart compares "Standard 37-622" vs. "Big Apple 60-622." What is the "standard" tire used. If its a Schwalbe with the same tread pattern, then there is something weird going on. If its some random competitor, then tire compound, tread pattern, etc. are the more likely culprits. Kinda like comparing car tires, if you compare a winter snow tire to a Eco-rated all-season, both in the same size, the eco tire will not just roll better, but will last a lot longer.
Asher
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You're a bit behind the times - pros use 25mm tires in races (I think the 26mm may actually be 25mm).
With a motor providing acceleration to overcome the inertia of heavier tires, maybe the penalty of heavier but smooth tires is moot?
Aqua Blue races with 28mm on a 1x drivetrain.
https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/article/tires-of-the-tour-de-france-50337/
Ravi Kempaiah
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I agree with you, Chris.
I don't think those numbers are exact.
There is a fantastic website https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/tour-reviews that do a superb job for measuring the rolling resistance for different tires.
For E-bikes, Schwalbe Marathon Almotion had the lowest rolling resistance compared to Michelin, Vittoria, Conti etc.
I mean we are splitting hairs here.
On an E-bike, the issue of power is a moot point. Motor does most of the job. Our job is to enjoy
Reid
Well-Known Member
OK. HowsosumeverI agree with you, Chris....(snip)I mean we are splitting hairs here.
On an E-bike, the issue of power is a moot point. Motor does most of the job. Our job is to enjoy
, I really enjoy to pedal my bicycle on the carpet-smooth roads here, and when I do, I want it to roll as nicely as possible for the fewest organic Watts expended. SO, I use a moderately narrow 38 (or is 38 wide?) tire designed for relatively low rolling resistance and I pump that tire up hard, 100PSI, risking failure maybe, because it is rated for 87PSI max. But it helps me enjoy pedaling that which, despite its weight, still feels like a bike and a sleek one in its way, at that.https://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/article/best-performance-road-tires-lab-tested-49101/
Carpet smooth roads is a key condition. Real world potholes, of course, highlight a real drawback of hard tires.
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