No throttle and no way home today... :(

Each bike is different some throttles are lowered powered then the PAS, many have the same amount of power when using either. And many supply full power in any power level whiles the PAS only allows then manually selected. The last instance is the only time I see an advantage for throttle for speed.

I have always had torque sensors on my bikes and have gotten used to just pedal harder for more speed.

There are also differences in mid drive vs rear drive, no gearing so if your throttle is able to supply full power at any power level a hub motor will be “more ready” at all times in real world application

I have a throttle on 1 of the bikes , wish they all did but not for for more speed issues for my riding.
 
Each bike is different some throttles are lowered powered then the PAS, many have the same amount of power when using either. And many supply full power in any power level whiles the PAS only allows then manually selected. The last instance is the only time I see an advantage for throttle for speed.

I have always had torque sensors on my bikes and have gotten used to just pedal harder for more speed.

There are also differences in mid drive vs rear drive, no gearing so if your throttle is able to supply full power at any power level a hub motor will be “more ready” at all times in real world application

I have a throttle on 1 of the bikes , wish they all did but not for for more speed issues for my riding.
True. That's the beauty of KT and other programmable controllers. You can adjust just about everything, including how much power your throttle has in relation to your PAS AND you chose whether your throttle power is, or is not related to your PAS setting.
I prefer having full power throttle, regardless of PAS setting.
And since it's a IGH , it doesn't matter what gear I am, in when I hit the throttle.
 
Each bike is different some throttles are lowered powered then the PAS, many have the same amount of power when using either. And many supply full power in any power level whiles the PAS only allows then manually selected. The last instance is the only time I see an advantage for throttle for speed.

I have always had torque sensors on my bikes and have gotten used to just pedal harder for more speed.

There are also differences in mid drive vs rear drive, no gearing so if your throttle is able to supply full power at any power level a hub motor will be “more ready” at all times in real world application

I have a throttle on 1 of the bikes , wish they all did but not for for more speed issues for my riding.
I'm loving the features of Grin controllers. And of course, the Baserunner which fits in the base of my newest Poly battery case with 21700 cells.

Baserunner_L10 Controller

New Model V5 Baserunner_L10 Field Oriented Motor Controller. Flat Profile Fits Many Downtube Battery Enclosures. L1019 Motor Plug. 70A Peak Phase Currents (~45-50A Continuous), for 24-52V Batteries (60V Max Input).
Screen Shot 2022-07-05 at 1.16.07 PM.png


Wide Operating Voltage Range (27-60V and 31-88V)
• Integrated ON/OFF Power Switch
• Both Sensored and Sensorless operation
• Proportional regenerative braking
• Long (120cm) motor cable leads
• Direct Plug-in V3 Cycle Analyst Compatibility
 
Mid-drive you lose the belt, party's over.
I've never lost my chain on three mid-drive e-bikes I've owned, and their total mileage is 13,162 miles.
I wonder how you remove the rear wheel for a flat repair. A flat happens far more frequently than a broken chain or a belt.
 
I'm loving the features of Grin controllers. And of course, the Baserunner which fits in the base of my newest Poly battery case with 21700 cells.

Baserunner_L10 Controller

New Model V5 Baserunner_L10 Field Oriented Motor Controller. Flat Profile Fits Many Downtube Battery Enclosures. L1019 Motor Plug. 70A Peak Phase Currents (~45-50A Continuous), for 24-52V Batteries (60V Max Input).
View attachment 128078

Wide Operating Voltage Range (27-60V and 31-88V)
• Integrated ON/OFF Power Switch
• Both Sensored and Sensorless operation
• Proportional regenerative braking
• Long (120cm) motor cable leads
• Direct Plug-in V3 Cycle Analyst Compatibility
The 1980's tech B & W screen CA uses was the deal breaker for me.
I really thought WattWagon's was going to step up to the 21700's, but not being workable in the Hydra's (their bread and butter bikes) hole killed it.
My interest was building a 14S3P sports pack and my impression was these cases are all just reconfigured and widened 18650 holders that leave 10 empty slots in that Shark for that configuration. And you can't go 14S4P, that's 56 cells.
So you're stuck with a 48v battery 13S4P = 52 cells.
I was considering 3d printing but said hell with it (since delivery has been so slowed down) 'till the bike's here.
A San Diego local on youtube has vids of a custom 21700 pack on an Ultra Hardtail, created by a guy on ebay.
Assuming the base plate and lock can be reused, an outer molding can be 3d'd.
I'm curious how you find that battery case.
I sure would like to be incorrect about my findings.

Fn'F
 
I've never lost my chain on three mid-drive e-bikes I've owned, and their total mileage is 13,162 miles.
I wonder how you remove the rear wheel for a flat repair. A flat happens far more frequently than a broken chain or a belt.
Although I've never broken a chain either, I have busted a derailleur hanger which has the same crippling effect for some mid drives.
Unless you carry tools to shorten the chain and use a single gear, you're out of luck.
 
Although I've never broken a chain either, I have busted a derailleur hanger which has the same crippling effect for some mid drives.
Unless you carry tools to shorten the chain and use a single gear, you're out of luck.
How often?
 
Although I've never broken a chain either, I have busted a derailleur hanger which has the same crippling effect for some mid drives.
Unless you carry tools to shorten the chain and use a single gear, you're out of luck.
Which is also true of any bicycle going back to the invention of the derailleur something like 100 years ago. So there's no more reason to be concerned with a mid drive bike than there was with an old school analog one.

I've never broken a chain, either after *many* thousands of miles on powerful mid drives. Despite this, I carry a spare chain and a Park mini chainbreaker in any bike that has a mid drive motor. Its a negligible weight penalty (after all... you have a *motor*) and gives 100% peace of mind. I can recover from a damaged chain or if necessary I can simply replace it. I sometimes ride in some pretty remote places and over the years I have found it pays to guard against even rare risks.

Build it right. Mid drive is every bit as reliable as a hub motor.
 
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Build it right. Mid drive is every bit as reliable as a hub motor.
Totally agree. If I may add just a bit- Build it right, (learn to) maintain it properly. Mid drive is every bit as reliable as a hub motor.
 
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Yeah you and Al. I’m fine leaving that pretty picture on the wall or in my pocket. I don’t get better performance or more features in living color.
It's not about color Tom. It's about the size of that display, and the amount of data it can display all at once. Compare the size or the amount of data to what's available with newer stuff (color or mono) and the CA-3 is clearly long in the tooth...
It's not for me....
 
Totally agree. If I may add just a bit- Build it right, (learn to) maintain it properly. Mid drive is every bit as reliable as a hub motor.
Sure, but I think the riding-smart part largely eliminates the need to do much in the way of maintaining. All I do is squirt/wipe the chain every couple of weeks with Rock and Roll. Drivetrainwise... thats it. I'm at about 2100 miles on my Bullitt doing nothing more over about the last ... 14 months? But yes no matter what you gotta maintain the bike, which includes lots that are not a part of the drivetrain. I had to drop my car off at the tire shop this morning, riding the Apostate back here to the office. Its been a few weeks and before I left I hauled the bike out and needed to check the air pressure on the frame shock (down 50 psi), the Coast dropper (down 150 psi!), the forks (down zero psi). Also charge the taillight. Its not time yet to check my torque on my crankarms but that needs to be done on just about every other bike I ride - and I am overdue and have gotten sloppy on that one.

This is a new page that has - for the moment at least - become the most popular page on my site. Between this and the 'ride it right' article I think thats enough to remove the stigma (although still... people love to blame the equipment).

 
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Great article! Thanks. A throttle Sondors Ultra came in. It was automatically shifting. The freehub body you mentioned is toast. I was hoping it just needed a spacer and tightening. They used some parts on that bike that don't belong with that level of power. Like a Tourney cluster. The owner is 300 pounds and rides the throttle. We are getting him some Pick Ups for it from Schwalbe at Bike Tires Direct. I recently had to pay $82 each for them. Now they are $45.

Edit Update: I am not a expert on freehub bodies. The bike shop said this one is intended for a low-end big box beach cruiser that is non-powered and goes up to 12-15 Mph. Not an Ultra that is 1000W with 120Nm.
 
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To say "well, it hasn't happened to me and I've been riding for (whatever incredible, fantasy mileage)" means 'you're overdue', not you got a pass. ".. unforeseen circumstances befall us all (King Solomom)" - not 'some people get to opt out of inevitability because they're cooler than others'.
There are even folks that 'don't need turn signals', and drivers that always say "I've never been in an accident that was my fault" - but have 2 - 3 accidents a year - and that stop at RED LIGHTS, just to be double-safe too.
Having a throttle literally saved my life. So I know thinking 'it's not going to happen because it hasn't, I don't need any precautions' flies in the face of mathematical odds.
I go so far as to indict that not having a throttle is risky behavior and inconveniences others when you get caught at that 4-way stop in the wrong gear and PO all those 'ball-game' people looking for parking as you slowly trundle across the street, clicking like a madman.
And: What now if your shifter cable is called up to shifter Heaven?

An 'I never break down' bicyclist may forget to tell you his bike is a 250watt, 20Nm, EU regulated, 15mph slug (as evidenced by a photo of him holding it up by one arm, above his shoulders) running on 'cadence'.

So to get to the nub and ditch the chaff, I'll go out on a limb and say something definitive: +200Nm Ultras eat drivetrains and no old codger I know can one sided shoulder press my 65 - 75 lb ebike.

In fact, even lifting 65lbs that way can/ will rip your rotator cuff loose*. It's like posting photos of playing Russian Roulette to prove you have fabulous luck. So I can't help but think 'okay, show me more "stupid, risky behavior" to prove you're a reliable source'.

It's safe to say 'some people don't need/ want a throttle on their bicycle', but it follows that your 'get-home' safety options diminish by 100% in a whole list of possible scenarios ... and that not having a throttle serves no realistic purpose whatsoever.

Rear hubs add another layer of 'get-home' factor safety - but no, if the bike bursts into flames they won't help you either.
A correctly set up rear hub e-bike with a throttle increases the odds of survival from the most common breakdowns by a multifold.

Pedal strike? Throttle.
I lunched my ring-gear/ chain/ bash plate derailleur/ shifter cable/ crank ? Throttle.
My TS quit (on 70lb bike) and it's 4 uphill miles home ? Throttle
"This is dangerous. I'm leaving, RIGHT NOW". Throttle.
Get in a wreck. Break a bone - or two (maybe foot?). Gotta get home. Throttle.
Me: (lisening to "gee sir, you should have called medivac" while being patched up) Can I go now?
You in cardiac arrest at an $80,000.00 flight ambulance bill: Ghaaack, choke, choke.
Hell, I spun my dropouts, stopped, removed the chain, etc (sounds easy huh ? w/ no tools) and drove home (Throttle) with the hub axles just resting in the stays. Try that pedaling. Try that with a controller set to "current" (doing the off on/ off on/ off rhumba).

I weight experience against the wisdom of someone who's never had a breakdown any day.

The question really is: why not have a throttle? *2

Is there a reason that serves a purpose other than by it's very design and aim to deliberately control the admin rights to our available performance, reducing our Liberty ?


Will it give me cancer, or is it cuz mommy says ??

FnF

1*I stopped a lifetime of lifting iron a few years back. My max bench was over double my weight (at 360lbs) and I was repping 260lbs.
Even strictly following the rules, I was still hurt many times (even laid off 2 years), but didn't suffer one permanent injury in 50 years.
My motto is "no brain no pain". I've seen a parking-lot full of roid-geniuses that disobeyed the rules, made up new stuff and suffered permanent injuries. You see them in Gyms (for a year or two), all patched up joints wrapped (stinking of camphor) - working out with present injuries.
As a professional, I wouldn't even consider lifting 65 -75lbs above my shoulder on one side, but then I don't do steep incline presses either.
*2. Pre 1900, a vocal lunatic fringe element in the USA was vehemently against the automobile.
The US Senate even attempted to enact laws banning Autos - because as one put it "they are terrifying the horses".
 
To say "well, it hasn't happened to me and I've been riding for (whatever incredible, fantasy mileage)" means 'you're overdue', not you got a pass. ".. unforeseen circumstances befall us all (King Solomom)" - not 'some people get to opt out of inevitability because they're cooler than others'.
There are even folks that 'don't need turn signals', and drivers that always say "I've never been in an accident that was my fault" - but have 2 - 3 accidents a year - and that stop at RED LIGHTS, just to be double-safe too.
Having a throttle literally saved my life. So I know thinking 'it's not going to happen because it hasn't, I don't need any precautions' flies in the face of mathematical odds.
I go so far as to indict that not having a throttle is risky behavior and inconveniences others when you get caught at that 4-way stop in the wrong gear and PO all those 'ball-game' people looking for parking as you slowly trundle across the street, clicking like a madman.
And: What now if your shifter cable is called up to shifter Heaven?

An 'I never break down' bicyclist may forget to tell you his bike is a 250watt, 20Nm, EU regulated, 15mph slug (as evidenced by a photo of him holding it up by one arm, above his shoulders) running on 'cadence'.

So to get to the nub and ditch the chaff, I'll go out on a limb and say something definitive: +200Nm Ultras eat drivetrains and no old codger I know can one sided shoulder press my 65 - 75 lb ebike.

In fact, even lifting 65lbs that way can/ will rip your rotator cuff loose*. It's like posting photos of playing Russian Roulette to prove you have fabulous luck. So I can't help but think 'okay, show me more "stupid, risky behavior" to prove you're a reliable source'.

It's safe to say 'some people don't need/ want a throttle on their bicycle', but it follows that your 'get-home' safety options diminish by 100% in a whole list of possible scenarios ... and that not having a throttle serves no realistic purpose whatsoever.

Rear hubs add another layer of 'get-home' factor safety - but no, if the bike bursts into flames they won't help you either.
A correctly set up rear hub e-bike with a throttle increases the odds of survival from the most common breakdowns by a multifold.

Pedal strike? Throttle.
I lunched my ring-gear/ chain/ bash plate derailleur/ shifter cable/ crank ? Throttle.
My TS quit (on 70lb bike) and it's 4 uphill miles home ? Throttle
"This is dangerous. I'm leaving, RIGHT NOW". Throttle.
Get in a wreck. Break a bone - or two (maybe foot?). Gotta get home. Throttle.
Me: (lisening to "gee sir, you should have called medivac" while being patched up) Can I go now?
You in cardiac arrest at an $80,000.00 flight ambulance bill: Ghaaack, choke, choke.
Hell, I spun my dropouts, stopped, removed the chain, etc (sounds easy huh ? w/ no tools) and drove home (Throttle) with the hub axles just resting in the stays. Try that pedaling. Try that with a controller set to "current" (doing the off on/ off on/ off rhumba).

I weight experience against the wisdom of someone who's never had a breakdown any day.

The question really is: why not have a throttle? *2

Is there a reason that serves a purpose other than by it's very design and aim to deliberately control the admin rights to our available performance, reducing our Liberty ?


Will it give me cancer, or is it cuz mommy says ??

FnF

1*I stopped a lifetime of lifting iron a few years back. My max bench was over double my weight (at 360lbs) and I was repping 260lbs.
Even strictly following the rules, I was still hurt many times (even laid off 2 years), but didn't suffer one permanent injury in 50 years.
My motto is "no brain no pain". I've seen a parking-lot full of roid-geniuses that disobeyed the rules, made up new stuff and suffered permanent injuries. You see them in Gyms (for a year or two), all patched up joints wrapped (stinking of camphor) - working out with present injuries.
As a professional, I wouldn't even consider lifting 65 -75lbs above my shoulder on one side, but then I don't do steep incline presses either.
*2. Pre 1900, a vocal lunatic fringe element in the USA was vehemently against the automobile.
The US Senate even attempted to enact laws banning Autos - because as one put it "they are terrifying the horses".

I prefer to have no throttle. If you prefer to have one, I’m good with that.
 
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I have a throttle and it is activated with pedal pressure just like a car. I don't drive a car with hand controls. That has no appeal to me. And installing a new rear tire is just like a regular bike. I need to get back to the zip-tie-less bike. Both going and stopping will be foot activated just like a car.
 
I have a throttle and it is activated with pedal pressure just like a car. I don't drive a car with hand controls. That has no appeal to me. And installing a new rear tire is just like a regular bike. I need to get back to the zip-tie-less bike. Both going and stopping will be foot activated just like a car.

Your legs are not a throttle. A throttle is on the handlebars in a twist or thumb variation that allows you to get off to a quicker or stronger start than your legs provide. It still amazes me how many fight the throttle!

 
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