E-Wheels
Well-Known Member
Is this decision based on shortsightedness, fear, ignorance, prejudice......https://www.bicycling.com/culture/new-york-city-just-declared-war-on-e-bikes
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New York City Just Declared War on E-Bikes
- Thread starter E-Wheels
- Start date
So hypocritical to hold the bikes to blame. It's a deeper problem. New York is a restaurant town and that industry is a major employer of illegal workers.
If you're sick and you CAN'T go out then have dinner delivered to your door. Otherwise go get it yourself or (gasp!) cook dinner at home for yourself and your family and cease exploiting the poor of the third world just because they are here or just over the border in inexhaustible numbers..
If you're sick and you CAN'T go out then have dinner delivered to your door. Otherwise go get it yourself or (gasp!) cook dinner at home for yourself and your family and cease exploiting the poor of the third world just because they are here or just over the border in inexhaustible numbers..
The enforcement actions came up due to a caller to the "Ask the Mayor" program hosted by Brian Lehrer on WNYC. An Upper West Side resident called in to ask Mayor DeBlasio why the regulations regarding e-bikes was not being enforced, which was a follow up to a news piece earlier in the week also on WNYC. The caller's position is that ebikes are a growing problem, threatening pedestrians, particularly older people. The issue seemed to be primarily throttle ebikes being used for restaurant take out deliveries, which is a common sight in NYC. The mayor gave the caller a positive response, with a promise to follow up, the result being the increased enforcement actions. Chris Nolte, who is frequently on this site, has been outspoken in the media about the enforcement issue, which I interpret as being being caused by reckless abuse by delivery restaurants. Its seems all ebikes (and ordinary non commercial riders) are now being caught in the net, even category 1 bikes. Just my opinion, the situation is not helped by the sale of monster ebikes (like the Luna Apex) which push the limits of ebike legality with top speeds of over 40 mph. One other result is this is causing the dumbing down of some otherwise very capable ebikes to avoid falling into category 2/3. Specifically, I am guessing that Haibike disables its walk assist to avoid any risk of this being considered a throttle, thus falling into an illegal category is some jurisdictions.
Over50
Well-Known Member
I recall visiting a small LBS when I first started my e-bike search (I think they were a Felt dealer). They told me basically "we don't sell any purpose built e-bikes but we can build you a kit and the bike will do 40 mph easy". When I responded "that isn't going to be legal" I got a surprised look in return. I took it to mean surprise that anyone even cared about legality. Just seems highly irresponsible for a shop to jeopardize the future of an industry via complete disregard for current law, rider and bystander safety etc. So with all these throttle and perhaps 28mph+ delivery bikes in NYC, I'm thinking that there have to be a lot of shops building/selling these things(?). If so, are they garage/black market operations or licensed bike shops? Seems NYC should crack down on some of the sellers and in the process help the legit shops like Propel via the increased Class 1 sales.
Wow. So I was seeing if this was true as I was going to purchase my first e-bike. Since this is the law, do people recommend not buying the bike? I want to ride it from Edgewater NJ to GCT as exercise and excitement. If I was riding with pedal assisted would I still be breaking the law?
Chris Nolte
Well-Known Member
Hey All! It's definitely interesting times here in NYC. I think many other cities can learn from the mistakes here. Some might be surprised to hear, but quite frankly I'm not upset about this crackdown. I don't advocate for bikes to be confiscated, but I fully believe that the reckless use of ebikes is preventing many others from using them in a safe way.
Keep in mind as stated many times before that pedal assist is okay in NYC and it's my suspicion that this crackdown is in some ways an opportunity to address the issue before Albany passes a bill. For the first time ever all local decision makers are in support of a Class 1 bill. I would like a bill that allows for Class 3 and Class 2 in some special circumstances (we've proven that Class 2 gone unchecked can cause a lot of trouble).
We could have passed a bill last year, but the bike industry wasn't willing to support a bill that didn't align with their model legislation. This year we plan to work outside of the traditional channels, it's been too many years of people outside of NY trying to make decisions on what's best for NY.
I've yet to have anyone of our customers have trouble with their pedal assist bikes and if someone was to have trouble it would give us an opportunity to set a precedent. We recently did this on the sale side now we just need a law in Albany to solidify the use side or we could go to court and win a case.
Keep in mind as stated many times before that pedal assist is okay in NYC and it's my suspicion that this crackdown is in some ways an opportunity to address the issue before Albany passes a bill. For the first time ever all local decision makers are in support of a Class 1 bill. I would like a bill that allows for Class 3 and Class 2 in some special circumstances (we've proven that Class 2 gone unchecked can cause a lot of trouble).
We could have passed a bill last year, but the bike industry wasn't willing to support a bill that didn't align with their model legislation. This year we plan to work outside of the traditional channels, it's been too many years of people outside of NY trying to make decisions on what's best for NY.
I've yet to have anyone of our customers have trouble with their pedal assist bikes and if someone was to have trouble it would give us an opportunity to set a precedent. We recently did this on the sale side now we just need a law in Albany to solidify the use side or we could go to court and win a case.
People really need to call this law out for what it is. Chris, you say that bikes should be limited to Class 1, yet you still sell Stromers which have throttles. I guess what you're really saying is that bikes should be limited to ultra-expensive Euro bikes that only the 1% can afford, so that small shops don't have to compete with more reasonably priced bikes that the "unwashed" masses can afford. This all started when a rich buddy of DeBlasio called in on his radio show and complained that his nice neighborhood was being invaded by electric bikes - short hand for saying that a bunch of Asians and other non-white people were rushing through the streets on ebikes. Food delivery in NYC is one of the few jobs available for unskilled, recent arrivals - so basically this is a racist law trying to keep this group of people in constant fear and in their place. I get it, if they're going too fast or driving recklessly they're a danger, but how about having NYC cops actually enforce speed limits and road laws instead of singling out a group of people with no political clout to make the 1% feel powerful. I'd love to see how the rich in NYC would react if the mayor passed a law prohibiting any car that could go above 100 miles an hour as being dangerous, such as Teslas, Porsches and BMWs - you know, the ones the 1% drive. Since just about every pedestrian death in NYC was due to a car this would make more sense, but fat chance the wealthy would allow this. And yes Chris, NYC is still a part of the US, so when a renegade mayor starts passing laws that conflict with the ADA and is written to hurt the poor and non-white the rest of the country should and does have a say in it.
Chris Nolte
Well-Known Member
@JayVee - I agree with your statements 100%. The problem is NYC doesn’t have this data even though they commonly suggest they do. Many reporters have recently investigated this and it doesn’t exist.
@Solom01 those are some pretty strong accusations. It sounds like you’re passionate about this and we could really use more people like you assisting on this. I welcome you to come to Albany and to join the team that’s fighting for electric bikes. If it was up to me we would implement the three class bill that California has. The trouble is we’ve tried that and every year we got shut down. There are two underlining issues: one, many NYC residents have a bad taste about “scooter” type electric bikes and two, the Chair of the Transportation Committee in the Assembly can’t wrap his head around anything above 20 mph. These are not ideas I came up with nor do I think are reasonable, but at this point I think we need some clear law from Albany in order to start building space for Ebikes.
Regarding your statement about me just wanting to sell to the 1% - I don’t think this is the appropriate place to explain the strategy of my business, but I can assure you that you’re misguided.
If you feel this strongly I suggest you connect with the folks that are already strategizing around this. You could organize meetings with different politicians, etc. It might change your perspective on things. I also welcome you to call me to discuss. I spend much of my time on similar discussions. Keep in mind when dealing with politics the voice of reason is usually not the strong one, it’s become a painful lesson for me as I’ve made many mistakes based on that assumption.
Your reference to the ADA is a good one and one that I’m working on with some friends. Just a reminder - in order for electric bikes to be protected under the ADA they need to be able to be covered by insurance and you need to be able to use them inside your home. I’m currently working with some medical professionals on the insurance thing and I think there are ways we can address the latter.
@Solom01 those are some pretty strong accusations. It sounds like you’re passionate about this and we could really use more people like you assisting on this. I welcome you to come to Albany and to join the team that’s fighting for electric bikes. If it was up to me we would implement the three class bill that California has. The trouble is we’ve tried that and every year we got shut down. There are two underlining issues: one, many NYC residents have a bad taste about “scooter” type electric bikes and two, the Chair of the Transportation Committee in the Assembly can’t wrap his head around anything above 20 mph. These are not ideas I came up with nor do I think are reasonable, but at this point I think we need some clear law from Albany in order to start building space for Ebikes.
Regarding your statement about me just wanting to sell to the 1% - I don’t think this is the appropriate place to explain the strategy of my business, but I can assure you that you’re misguided.
If you feel this strongly I suggest you connect with the folks that are already strategizing around this. You could organize meetings with different politicians, etc. It might change your perspective on things. I also welcome you to call me to discuss. I spend much of my time on similar discussions. Keep in mind when dealing with politics the voice of reason is usually not the strong one, it’s become a painful lesson for me as I’ve made many mistakes based on that assumption.
Your reference to the ADA is a good one and one that I’m working on with some friends. Just a reminder - in order for electric bikes to be protected under the ADA they need to be able to be covered by insurance and you need to be able to use them inside your home. I’m currently working with some medical professionals on the insurance thing and I think there are ways we can address the latter.
Chris I do apologize for saying unkind things about you, it's not fair and you have every right to sell whatever you want to anyone you want, but I am passionate about this because of the real consequences of DeBlasio's actions. I'm hardly a liberal, but people need to realize that the real issue here are delivery drivers who are almost 100% non-white, poor and in quite a few cases undocumented workers. These folks have very limited job opportunities in NYC, no political power and do the crappy job of delivering food quickly to all the folks in the city who are too lazy to go get their own food. Their income is pathetic and what little they make is based on tips. The only reason they are rushing around like madmen is because the only way they can get by is to make tons of deliveries quickly - when they have their bikes confiscated they are loosing the only way they can support their families - these aren't fun toys for them. For someone who keeps talking about what a liberal he is, DeBlasio has condemned these people who are working for a living to go on welfare (if they can) or turn to other non-legal means to support themselves - way to go. Maybe another way to attack these laws is to keep pointing out that they're racist at core and meant to hurt the poorest of the poor. Sure, enforce traffic laws and maybe even make them take compulsary classes on traffic safety, but don't pass a law that has such horrible consequences for people with few options. Funny for a city that keeps bragging about being a "sancturary" city NYC has basically made life a living hell for many non-documented workers
Chris Nolte
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your reply. I have many similar feelings and I have been trying to work with some of the great groups that are fighting for this. Two important ones are the Biking Public Project and another is the Chinese Staff & Workers Association.
I have been trying to help with a strategy as I’m learning quite a bit on how to navigate the complex political landscape here. I’m kind of proud of myself considering I knew practically nothing of the sort when I started this business. I tried to stay out of politics after returning home from Iraq. It caused way to much stress in life. This ebike campaign has been particularly stressful especially considering we’ve been working on it for so long, but I guess I’m getting better at managing.
I have been trying to help with a strategy as I’m learning quite a bit on how to navigate the complex political landscape here. I’m kind of proud of myself considering I knew practically nothing of the sort when I started this business. I tried to stay out of politics after returning home from Iraq. It caused way to much stress in life. This ebike campaign has been particularly stressful especially considering we’ve been working on it for so long, but I guess I’m getting better at managing.
Fitzy
Active Member
Now, care to apologize to the white NYC taxpayers who read this screed in which you've pigeonholed them as hate-filed 1%er racists?
Fitzy
Active Member
Thanks Chris, good to know, but I still am a bit worried about running into that overenthusiastic NYPD rookie who'll confiscate instead of educate themselves on the laws. I'll wait until Spring to see how things transpire before I risk taking my Class-1 out in the 5-Boroughs.
Chris Nolte
Well-Known Member
I respect that position as it’s not uncommon. I have a little gem not referenced in the news. Below is a recording of the press confernece from which most of the recent media stemmed from. I was in attendance there and I was able to get some bites in with a few key reporters afterwards.
See 8:45 the mayor does specifically mention that pedal assist is the exception. I think this is the first time he’s said pedal assist on camera, but it is proof we’re getting somewhere. There are many other important points to the talk, but I found that to be particularly interesting.
Maybe I just don't get it but are there two different issues here, the consumer and the business owner. Could it be business owners (delivery services, etc) who use the E-bike must register and insure, but recreational users (regular commuters and recreational consumers) shouldn't have to. Or would that be too complicated to manage? We (consumers) are just using the E-bike for fun, exercise and hopefully to save a few bucks down the road but BOs are using the E-bike to enhance their source of income and to compete. If BOs had to register and insure they may opt for a full featured scooter or moped which has to be insured too. It seems the main reason BOs are opting to use E- bikes is because basically they are free from insurance and registration. Just a thought
Chris Nolte
Well-Known Member
This is a good thought and some businesses like Postmates are doing just that. They opted for Electric mopeds that require registration rather than the Ebikes they utilized in other markets. The trouble with that is you can’t use the bike infrastructure and you can still tend to get stuck in traffic.
There is also a form of crude registration that is supposed to go on at individual police precincts, but it seems spotty at best. We’ve discussed these ideas along with official inspection stickers, but the administrative overhead associated with these efforts make them not worth it. Another major issue is the bikes don’t have VIN numbers, not that I’m advocating for registration although I’m willing to think real hard about any potential solution at this point.
Chris Nolte
Well-Known Member
The original V1 Stromers all had throttles now they are pedal assist.
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