E-Bike Newbies Are So Uninformed... (A Case Study)

[Stefan Mikes]

A Disclaimer: I do not talk about the newbies in these very Forums. I'm just describing my newest experience.

There comes a friend of mine (68), an avid roadie, post-covid twice. No, he is not looking for an e-bike for himself; despite his deteriorated health he still thinks of himself as a Highway Star No, he is looking for an e-bike for his wife. His thoughts, summarized:

• Are e-bikes weather/moisture/raining protected? (A good question!)
• Could you recommend a "working" -- as opposed to "recreational" -- e-bike for a female rider? I want to know what brands and solutions are worthwhile considering.

He did not mention the budget in the first place. Further thoughts:

• I'm concerned about the quality more than the price (although the cheaper the better)
• I was watching rental e-bikes in a mountain location. They were massive with wide tyres. I think such an e-bike would be ideal for my woman.
• The rental place owner declared the range of his e-bikes as 180 km. Is that realistic?
• How many charges would the battery take without noticeable capacity degradation?
• The man recommended Yamaha motors and electronics to me. What other brands could you recommend? (Note: There are no Yamaha motor e-bikes in Poland except Giant).

After my explanations, he came with this e-bike as "the working e-bike for his woman". Necessary to add, they live in Warsaw, a flat city with huge suburbs and a little of off-road around, where the single significant hill is 8.6% grade.

He thought this e-bike was an "ideal working e-bike for his woman", only he would welcome a low-step frame...

I was very patient to explain to him you do not ride a wide-tyre hardtail e-MTB in a flat city, and that his wife would need an e-bike with fenders, strong rear rack, lighting, and a kickstand for the practical use in the city. His comment:

• My wife rides a lot. The applications are touring, going to our place outside the city (18 km), and grocery shopping
• She can load her bike with many-ty kilograms of cargo, forcing me to repair the wheels and other mechanisms of her bike often. So I thought an electric Mountain Bike would be sturdy enough
• "Fenders, the rack and lighting as well as the kickstand could be easily bought aftermarket!"

These of you who are aware e-bikers know how ignorant he is, especially in the part of converting an e-MTB to become a valuable "working city e-bike". We do not get your "cargo e-bikes" in Poland. We do not get the cheap stuff popular in North America. What his wife actually needs is a SUV e-bike but I even did not want mention that to him as he would be baffled with the price!

I set his sights on a Como 3.0 (the best, IGH). Let us see if he will educate himself...

 

[sc00ter]

Ignorant is overly cruel when someone asks you for help. Call your friend uninformed. There's room in the world for all kinds of bikes.

I agree. The friend is not ignorant. He's asking someone with a bit of experience to help narrow down some choices. Judging from his needs I would recommend a Globe Haul or Tern. If his budget is more limited then the good old Lectric Xpedition or Rad product. But if your model choices are limited in the country that you reside in you'll have to use your imagination.

I did learn that "surprise" ebikes are not a good idea. The next step is to get her to test ride as many as possible. Heck, it took ME many ebikes before I found what worked for my needs. You have to enjoy the ebike or you wont want to ride it as much.

 

[Doggyman1202]

I'm surprised he did not mention throttle as a must-have. I do agree with Harry though. I went through a learning curve with these things, burning money along the way. My biggest "what-the-hell-was-I-thinking" experience was a fat folder. I know those are a good fit for some, but I wasn't one of them. I followed the fat-fan crowd over the cliff. "Live and learn" as my grandma used to say.

 

[sc00ter]

I'm surprised he did not mention throttle as a must-have. I do agree with Harry though. I went through a learning curve with these things, burning money along the way. My biggest "what-the-hell-was-I-thinking" experience was a fat folder. I know those are a good fit for some, but I wasn't one of them. I followed the fat-fan crowd over the cliff. "Live and learn" as my grandma used to say.

You said the "T" word! I find I use mine less and less. Now the "T" word seems like a extra piece of mind should something drive line fail. If I still used my ebike for my 14 mile commute the throttle would be for extra hot weather and rain. Huffing pedals in wet clothes is miserable.

 

[Doggyman1202]

You said the "T" word! I find I use mine less and less. Now the "T" word seems like a extra piece of mind should something drive line fail. If I still used my ebike for my 14 mile commute the throttle would be for extra hot weather and rain. Huffing pedals in wet clothes is miserable.

I know "T"s have their place. Those with knee issues or general mobility limitations require them. Commuters in hot or inclement weather as you mention benefit at times. Some cadence e-bikes benefit from throttles for safe n' smooth starts.

I'm an active guy and I ride mainly for recreational exercise, so a throttle defeats the purpose. I like to engage with pedals at all times, but that's just my preference and style. I also like to ride on a few trails that otherwise restrict Class 2 e-bikes, so there's that.

Admittedly, I get a little miffed when reviewers downgrade their ratings for e-bikes that lack a throttle. Undeniably, throttles have been a driving sales feature for e-bike sellers to date, but I'm not certain that they're a winner for the still unconvinced potential e-bike consumer going forward. I frequently meet people (i.e. an adult niece very recently) who still conflate e-bikes with scooters/Mopeds. The people flying down public paths full throttle are not a positive endorsement for e-bikes. Thus, a lot of regular bicyclists still think e-bikes are strictly for the elderly or the lazy. Throttles only magnify that perception.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Ignorant is overly cruel when someone asks you for help. Call your friend uninformed. There's room in the world for all kinds of bikes.

I'm helping him with all the necessary information. Yes, "uninformed" is a better word.

Judging from his needs I would recommend a Globe Haul or Tern.

Globe Haul is only available in the United States. Tern e-bikes are available in Europe. I might mention that to my buddy.

I'm surprised he did not mention throttle as a must-have.

Even he must have been aware throttle e-bikes were illegal in Europe. His wife has been doing the enormous shopping on a traditional bike so I do not think she would need the T-thing. Especially not in the city located in the flatland.

Lectric Xpedition or Rad product

Not available in my country. There are many "economic" e-bikes here, which are manufactured in Europe, and yes, they might have Bafang or Ananda motors.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Y'know, on some points I think your friend is not very far off the mark.

I've not seen any e-bike, even very high-end e-bikes, that had what I considered great fenders and racking straight from the manufacturer. Lights and kickstands were more of a mixed bag.

Also, a lot of people (myself included) spent many years riding semi-converted mountain bikes as city bikes and utility bikes. This was easier back in the day when you could get a "mountain bike" that didn't have any suspension at all (although today basically the same bikes are sold as "gravel bikes" and "all-terrain bikes".

Suspension adds weight and complexity to any bike. It is one more part that needs to be maintained and one more part that can and will break at an inconvenient time. If you don't really need it (and most riders, most of the time, do not) it is just going to get in your way. Added to that suspension makes a bike feel "dead" and ponderous -- there ends up being a tradeoff between being able to absorb impacts and being nimble enough to avoid those impacts. Bluntly (and I live in an area full of hard core mountain bikers) when I see someone on a nice FS mountain bike, ninety nine percent of the time this person is merely using the bike as a form of signaling what tribe they belong to, and are really making the statement "I may be old, but I'm still a ruthless shredmaster!"

The other big downside of suspensions is that it limits both how much you can carry and your options (which will be much more expensive) for installing racks. Plus the lifespan of those much more expensive racks will be much shorter because they will inevitably have to flex with the bike. So if you plan on carrying a lot with any great frequency stay away from suspension, especially full suspension.

The Como 3.0 is probably a great choice. The only thing I'd say is that it would be a good idea to replace that very basic suspension front fork with a fixed front fork (ideally a steel fork) with all the mounting points for front racks and baskets.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The developments:
I made the friend aware of cargo e-bikes. There is even a single Economy Cargo E-Bike model available, which is Decathlon Elops Cargobike. Good price, and local support & warranty.
When the friend saw the Tern (no local support) or Elops, he admitted that while those e-bikes would meet his wife's criteria, the cargo e-bikes looked terribly ugly

He will bring his wife to Specialized Warsaw to have a look at and possibly demo ride a Como 3.0 IGH and/or Vado 3.0 IGH. Both e-bikes have rear racks rated for 27 kg, and I think Como accepts a pizza rack. Here, you can rent a demo Specialized e-bike for a couple of hours or a day against a reasonable fee.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

Renting a bicycle type is probably best. My wife, and I, rented two types. A radrunner plus and a radcity. There no other places to rent from and they only had rad bikes, so we couldn’t rent the exact bike we were looking for. However this gave us great insight to what we need in a bike. We rode halfway of our route, then switched bikes. I liked certain things about each bike and was able to weed the bikes that wouldn’t work for my needs, or body type.

 

[BlackHand]

(Note: There are no Yamaha motor e-bikes in Poland except Giant

Haibike doesn't sell in Poland? I would think they probably make several low step models with fenders&racks with both Yamaha and Bosch motors.

Nothing wrong with the Dapu motor though. If the Lovelac has mounting points for rack and fenders it would make a pretty usable daily driver after changing the tires for something more appropriate.

The first 2 questions everyone asks about my bike is How fast will it go? and Do you have to pedal?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Haibike doesn't sell in Poland? I would think they probably make several low step models with fenders&racks with both Yamaha and Bosch motors.

Cube is one of the most popular German brands here. However, it is mostly hardtail XC e-bike.

Nothing wrong with the Dapu motor though. If the Lovelac has mounting points for rack and fenders it would make a pretty usable daily driver after changing the tires for something more appropriate.

Lovelec is a good brand with at least one LBS in Warsaw.

There are more, starting with Bolt from Raszyn (the hometown of Iga Świątek the tennis player). The biggest Polish online store with an LBS in Warsaw sells Hercules, a German Bosch based brand, etc.

The point is, the friend wants to spend more money for a big brand e-bike with local service. Spec is a good option for him.

We have good Giant and Trek LBS, too.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Just a pet peeve about the bike industry in general and the e-bike industry in particular.

I'll have you consider the Surly Disc Trucker and the Surly Bridge Club:

Disc Trucker | Long Distance Touring Bike | Surly Bikes

Surly Disc Trucker is a pure-bred drop bar touring bike that can take you from one end of the world to the other, if there’s a road to travel on.

surlybikes.com

All Road Bike | Bridge Club Touring Bike

As a highly versatile, all road touring bike, the Bridge Club can evenly navigate the backwoods and single lane highways so you can go anywhere.

surlybikes.com

These are both "touring bikes", with the Bridge Club being a little bit more of an all terrain bike and the Disc Trucker being more of a road-like (but still fine on the gravel) bike. They are both pretty mid-range in cost and both have good, but not great, component build outs.

You could use either of them quite reasonably as an urban utility vehicle and be quite happy.

Here's the kicker, though: I guarantee you that either of those bikes, properly fitted, will be far more comfortable and far more stable and forgiving than nearly any e-bike on the market. A lot of that comes down to frame geometry and thoughtful ergonomics. What continues to blow my mind is that solving these problems isn't very hard, and that the e-bike industry doesn't seem to want to solve those problems for its customers. This is bizarre to me because a lot of the justification for e-bikes in the first place is that you can ride further than you could on an acoustic bike. Well, you won't be able to make those great distances if the bike is uncomfortable.

E-bikes are, on the average, a bit more stable and forgiving than the average road bike or mountain bike. That's largely because most e-bikes have a longer wheelbase and chainstay length, which makes screaming downhills really stable. But the above two bikes tend to keep the stability but are more tucked which makes them zippier out of the gate and more nimble in addition.

A modified Bridge Club frame design with that newfangled Pinion E-Drive system would be an extremely interesting bike and tick a lot of boxes.

My other gripe is that we need some very low pedal assist options for those of us who hypermile. Or at least the ability to program the controller to configure those very low pedal assists.

 

[kevinmccune]

A Disclaimer: I do not talk about the newbies in these very Forums. I'm just describing my newest experience.

There comes a friend of mine (68), an avid roadie, post-covid twice. No, he is not looking for an e-bike for himself; despite his deteriorated health he still thinks of himself as a Highway Star No, he is looking for an e-bike for his wife. His thoughts, summarized:

• Are e-bikes weather/moisture/raining protected? (A good question!)
• Could you recommend a "working" -- as opposed to "recreational" -- e-bike for a female rider? I want to know what brands and solutions are worthwhile considering.

He did not mention the budget in the first place. Further thoughts:

• I'm concerned about the quality more than the price (although the cheaper the better)
• I was watching rental e-bikes in a mountain location. They were massive with wide tyres. I think such an e-bike would be ideal for my woman.
• The rental place owner declared the range of his e-bikes as 180 km. Is that realistic?
• How many charges would the battery take without noticeable capacity degradation?
• The man recommended Yamaha motors and electronics to me. What other brands could you recommend? (Note: There are no Yamaha motor e-bikes in Poland except Giant).

After my explanations, he came with this e-bike as "the working e-bike for his woman". Necessary to add, they live in Warsaw, a flat city with huge suburbs and a little of off-road around, where the single significant hill is 8.6% grade.

View attachment 162628
He thought this e-bike was an "ideal working e-bike for his woman", only he would welcome a low-step frame...

I was very patient to explain to him you do not ride a wide-tyre hardtail e-MTB in a flat city, and that his wife would need an e-bike with fenders, strong rear rack, lighting, and a kickstand for the practical use in the city. His comment:

• My wife rides a lot. The applications are touring, going to our place outside the city (18 km), and grocery shoppinga "townie"
• She can load her bike with many-ty kilograms of cargo, forcing me to repair the wheels and other mechanisms of her bike often. So I thought an electric Mountain Bike would be sturdy enough
• "Fenders, the rack and lighting as well as the kickstand could be easily bought aftermarket!"

These of you who are aware e-bikers know how ignorant he is, especially in the part of converting an e-MTB to become a valuable "working city e-bike". We do not get your "cargo e-bikes" in Poland. We do not get the cheap stuff popular in North America. What his wife actually needs is a SUV e-bike but I even did not want mention that to him as he would be baffled with the price!
as already been tried
I set his sights on a Como 3.0 (the best, IGH). Let us see if he will educate himself...

get her a "townie" if it doesnt work they wouldnt be out that much,sorry that has already been mentioned didnt see that,how about a trike?

 

[kevinmccune]

did someone mention vados? good grief lets eat( after a comfortable toke of course) well my story is I ended up with a fattie again after(against my better judgement) took it on the loop and realized these things are truly niche, my prefered tire size is "balloon to semi plus" the extra drag was very noticeable and it didnt seem particulary nimble, anyway I traded for it just to get away from my less than satisfying builds.future plans include a bit narrower tires,bigger battery( it sucked watts pretty fast) and at least a better seat and light I can cut on,its a lowstep with front and rear racks,might even paint it a bright color, now what to do with the leftover conversion kits?

 

[kevinmccune]

oh come on,you can certainly wait another 20 minutes( and another thing its only 5 o'clock somewhere 24 times a day unless there are more than 12 time zones( it appears there are) Good grief,pass that Vado and no fattires please.Hope"She who must be obeyed" gets a nice bike.

 

[Slaphappygamer]

Off topic
Has any heard of a US F35 valued @100M disappeared?

Not all of it.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

unless there are more than 12 time zones( it appears there are)

There are at least 38.

If you go down the deranged rabbit hole that is daylight savings time there are hundreds of rules on when those apply or do not apply (last I checked over 400).

 

[kevinmccune]

There are at least 38.

If you go down the deranged rabbit hole that is daylight savings time there are hundreds of rules on when those apply or do not apply (last I checked over 400).

hope they do away with that insane thing called DST

 

[kevinmccune]

Not all of it.

yep,they found it,it was in the woods somewhere,crazy thing is it may have spit the pilot out on its own,you have to consider good people are becoming increasingly scarce in the armed forces( at a time when autonomous drones may be making a showing.the singularity is probably here its clever enough to lay low, do not know what will happen when it faces off against that group known as the"god of war" they got rid of JFK quickly enough and we may even think they did us a favor when they helped the facists be defeated- never trust them,they are getting the American armed forces to keep the world stirred up.
Do not be deceived the era of " goodwill" could return ,OTH 'Ares" must be satisfied-you have been warned (tinfoil optional)

 

[Slaphappygamer]

Crazy to think self driving aircraft. I just saw someone I used to work with. He got with Joby Avaition. They are working on air rides. That is, Uber in the sky. The craft lands, and takes off, vertically. It is fully elctric and can carry 6 passengers. Crazy Jetsons stuff going on there.

FunFact: I'm a heavy gamer. God of War is one of my favorite game franchises. I also have a tinfoil on my Switch. Ok, has coffee, time for Vado.