New Trump China tariff's (2nd round - $200 billion)

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Haven't been able to confirm this, but if regular bikes and bike components/parts aren't already being tariffed out of China, would suspect all of that would be in this next round of announcements tonight.

Anyone in bike industry know of the status ?

Sounding like it will be only 10%, which is the number talked about previously back in July.
 
10-25% is a joke. It should be much higher than that if it's to have any effect.

Chinese have regularly been stealing intellectual property from american companies for decades now, both in China and in the US.

https://www.prosperousamerica.org/top_ten_cases_of_chinese_ip_theft

As a result of intellectual property theft, the US has lost many billions of dollars in revenue. Not to mention China REQUIRES US firms to give up intellectual property in order to have access to both Chinese consumer and labor markets:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin...tual-property-peter-navarro-column/563151001/

Protecting and promoting and encouraging manufacturing in the US is also extremely important in order to protect the world's environment. The 90,000 shipping vessels in operation in the world today burn 370 million TONS of fuel per year!

Just fifteen of these shipping vessels emit as much sulphur oxide pollution as the world's 760 million cars!

https://newatlas.com/shipping-pollution/11526/

Chinese manufacturing is an environmental disaster for everyone. The chinese people suffer since such a disproportionate percentage of industrial manufacturing takes place in china, and the world suffers since the environment is being destroyed by all of this unnecessary shipping.

These ebikes aren't dropped in our laps here in the USA by magical storks. They are delivered by ships that burn the most noxious, toxic, and polluting fuel of all: waste fuel. We're talking over 7 MILLION barrels a day.

Think about how much damage you're causing to the environment when you ride your chinese made ebike. No, riding your ebike is NOT helping to protect the environment. It is DESTROYING the environment by promoting transcontinental shipping and the use of toxic waste fuel.
 
A Chinese friend of mine told me an interesting story. He said China had given the entire world the gift of it's 4 inventions: the compass, gunpowder, printing, and papermaking. He said that because China had given these as gifts, the rest of the world should share it's secrets with China.

He was telling me that that's why you see so many Chinese millionaires and billionaires these days: they build copies with a different brand name or flat out counterfeits in huge quantities, undercutting the original brands in price, and become rich as a result.
 
I came across this video. It gives you a tiny glimpse of how extensive counterfeiting is in China (Shenzhen in this case). The merchants lie saying they sell authentic goods when it's all counterfeit. See starting at :40 sec in to get a sense of how many merchants are involved. Remember this is just one mall:

 
Think about how much damage you're causing to the environment when you ride your chinese made ebike. No, riding your ebike is NOT helping to protect the environment. It is DESTROYING the environment by promoting transcontinental shipping and the use of toxic waste fuel.

yes and the auto manufacturing industry did/does absolutely no damage to the environment day in day out. Also, driving an automobile for every chore every day damages the environment quite a bit.

and besides, this thread is about tariffs regular bike parts, not ebikes. So please get back on topic and off your rant.
 
It's ironic to me that Trump is supposedly against new taxes but tarriffs are simply taxes that consumers have to pay. China and Chinese companies don't pay a cent--it's the buyers who pay the tarriffs.
 
A Chinese friend of mine told me an interesting story. He said China had given the entire world the gift of it's 4 inventions: the compass, gunpowder, printing, and papermaking. He said that because China had given these as gifts, the rest of the world should share it's secrets with China.

He was telling me that that's why you see so many Chinese millionaires and billionaires these days: they build copies with a different brand name or flat out counterfeits in huge quantities, undercutting the original brands in price, and become rich as a result.
That's an absolute nonsense.

Stealing intellectual property and paper making are two different things. This does not mean they can produce counterfeit products.

That's like saying Italy should steal American intellectual property because pizza became one of the most popular food in the states and America does not pay the royalty.
 
So this video is entitled: "Inside a Fake Apple Store in China." This is pretty wacky stuff. The "apple store" mimics the most obvious features including the apple logo emblazoned across the store front obviously, but once inside they discover "imacs" with the windoze OS installed lol. The store also had a miniature of steve jobs holding the chinese flag. You really can't make this stuff up.

This is in guangzhou. I believe the youtuber buys an iphone knockoff at a different store for a hundred bucks. Relevant section starts at 1:25:

 
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That's an absolute nonsense.

Stealing intellectual property and paper making are two different things. This does not mean they can produce counterfeit products.

That's like saying Italy should steal American intellectual property because pizza became one of the most popular food in the states and America does not pay the royalty.

I didn't want to embarrass him by questioning his logic. He was embarrassed enough just recounting the story. Actually he initially refused to answer my question as to why there are so many rich chinese moving to the usa and canada. He told me "I don't know" a couple of times before he told me the real reason why. It's due to straight up theft.

According to cnn, US companies lose up to $600 billion annually to chinese intellectual property theft. This is not an insignificant figure.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/03/23/technology/china-us-trump-tariffs-ip-theft/index.html
 
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I didn't want to embarrass him by questioning his logic. He was embarrassed enough just recounting the story. Actually he initially refused to answer my question as to why there are so many rich chinese moving to the usa and canada. He told me "I don't know" a couple of times before he told me the real reason why. It's due to straight up theft.

According to cnn, US companies lose up to $600 billion annually to chinese intellectual property theft. This is not an insignificant figure.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/03/23/technology/china-us-trump-tariffs-ip-theft/index.html
There's nothing China does not counterfeit. They have made counterfeit cars, jewelries, iphones, etc.. but there are more.

As you know, saying that these things are allowed because China invented paper first does not make any sense.

Counterfeit Disney Land
2873284840_7abb0268ba_z.jpg

IMG_4439.JPG.jpeg


Counterfeit Fighter Jet
j-10-takeoff.jpg


Counterfeit Eiffel Tower
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Counterfeit fast food chains(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)
 
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Just wanted to comment on Chinese manufacturing of bikes, something I have some experiences in.

First of all, Chinese suppliers will lie on demand on customs forms. Look at Aliexpress, see those items with "no tax" on them? The seller will put a $10 tag on a $600 motor and the customs can do absolutely nothing. I've had reputable companies making FPGAs worth thousands of dollars ask me what exactly I want on the customs form. So for many goods, tariffs are meaningless because the declared price is already close to zero.

Regarding bikes. I am always in need of frames, and am scouting Alibaba regularly for good frames to buy. Sometimes a Chinese supplier will just send you a photo of a well-known frame from a manufacturer, with their logos and everything! You ask for that frame's schematic in order to compare with the original and it's basically 99% there — they might alter something, but basically they steal their customers' designs and then resell them to whoever is interested. Now, when it comes to carbon, everything is pretty much open and about 5-6 factories supply all the major brands (as well as custom bike shops etc.) but with alloy (alu) frames, many designs are proprietary and a good design is very difficult to find. So sometimes I would come across what's obviously a Haibike design, maybe slightly modified not to be obvious, but it's clearly been stolen because the Chinese are terrible designers and couldn't design a good bike frame to save their life.

In fact, the approach adopted by both myself and other small time operators in the business is the following: we design the frames for them, knowing full well that they will be stolen. We don't have many ways of protecting our IP beyond designing incomplete frames: for example, we design the frame but not the dropout/derailleur hanger, or we would design a frame that's incompatible with all but a specific component. But that will not deter the thieves over there as they will simply replace the unusual variation with something else that they know works and sell that instead. It's also hilarious when you send them the designs, they modify them but refuse to send the step files back to you because "it's our IP".

One funny side effect of all of this is that we could, if we wanted to, arbitrarily use copyrighted designs. For example, many US/European companies hold patents on specific rear suspension pivots (e.g., Horst Link), but I bet if I were to order one the factory wouldn't blink an eye... mainly because they are blissfully unaware of the very possibility of patents on suspension links.

There have been attempts to make frames locally. Stels, the powerhouse that sells the absolute majority of bikes here in Motherland (largest bicycle manufacturer in Europe, apparently), tried to set up manufacturing of frames and other parts locally. They gave up on the idea for obvious reasons related to cost, plus I imagine there are other issues — you're not allowed to arbitrarily pollute here, unlike in China.

Here I'm also neglecting the lies, bullshit, ignored messages and time delays related to dealing with the 'other side', as well as the fact that they all tend to just go dark for about a month for 'Chinese new year'. The work ethic is extremely low, there's no QC, you get a frame with a dropout that doesn't work with, say, a 2x11 setup because of course nobody bothered to test it. You ask for a fix and they send you a step file and tell you to CNC the hanger yourself.
 
It's ironic to me that Trump is supposedly against new taxes but tarriffs are simply taxes that consumers have to pay. China and Chinese companies don't pay a cent--it's the buyers who pay the tarriffs.

Thank you.
Its like a federal sales tax. Maybe it will be used to help pay down a meager portion the massive deficit we have now from the latest tax cut that is analogous to putting a trillion dollars on a deferred payment credit card. We will have a terrible headache when the bill comes due.

Developing fair trade policies is a very complicated process and just blindly swinging a hammer at trade problems is not the answer.
 
China do not impose international patent and trademark law. Most of manufacturing has has been overtaken and stolen away by Chinese manufacturers (both legit and knock-off versions).


However, when it comes to highly complex product that requires careful research and development and strict quality control such as an automobile, they're unable to do it. Their cars simply don't pass the safety standard of many countries, and most Chinese people despise Chinese made cars since most of them barely stay in good condition after a year.

 
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I will gladly pay more for ebikes or other products for that matter if it helps to halt or slow down IP theft in the future. As an owner of a U.S. based design and manufacturing business, I will tell you that it is very unsettling to spend thousands of dollars, over a year designing, prototyping and building a brand piece of machinery only to see it knocked off 6 months later in China with a very similar design and parts without any of the stringent safety features implemented in ours and nothing we can do about it.
 
I will gladly pay more for ebikes or other products for that matter if it helps to halt or slow down IP theft in the future. As an owner of a U.S. based design and manufacturing business, I will tell you that it is very unsettling to spend thousands of dollars, over a year designing, prototyping and building a brand piece of machinery only to see it knocked off 6 months later in China with a very similar design and parts without any of the stringent safety features implemented in ours and nothing we can do about it.
My favorite quote about hacking. There are two kind of companies related to hacking, those that already know they've been hacked, and those that don't know they have been hacked. As an artist, I can attest to the fact that being knocked off is not entirely the result of a foreign companies. Post a picture on the internet and nearly identical product will show up on someone else's Etsy page next week. You just have to keep innovating and staying ahead of those that copy.
Sorry I had to join in with a couple comments. Hope I kept it neutral.
 
16 of the 20 most polluted cities on the planet are in china. Linfen is the most polluted city on the planet (picture below). Living in this city is like smoking 3 packs of cigs a day. Half of all of the rivers and 1/3 of all lakes in china are polluted.

This of course has terrible health consequences for the people of China. And only a fool could not figure out that the pollution affects the entire planet, not just china.

This is picture of linfen during the daytime.

All of these supposedly "environmentally friendly" ebikes from china are actually manufactured using extremely dirty coal and then transported on shipping vessels using the dirtiest form of fuel available: waste fuel which is leading to acid rain all over the world.
Screen Shot 2018-09-18 at 2.10.32 PM.png


 
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