New Trump China tariff's (2nd round - $200 billion)

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It's ironic to me that Trump is supposedly against new taxes but tarriffs are simply taxes that consumers have to pay. China and Chinese companies don't pay a cent--it's the buyers who pay the tarriffs.

What do you propose that the US do? The US has a $560 billion trade deficit, 2/3 of that with China. The US loses anywhere between $220 billion to $600 billion EVERY YEAR in ip theft to China. This has led to the total collapse of US manufacturing and poses an enormous environmental crisis throughout the world as China relies on coal, and will continue to do so for a minimum of 30 more years.

What solutions do you propose?

BTW, it is false to claim that chinese manufacturers are not going to pay for the tariffs. At least some US companies have requested that chinese manufacturers split the tariff bill:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/24/tra...owner-says-trumps-tariffs-will-hit-sales.html

Not to mention with higher priced goods from china, their products will become less competitive, reducing their sales and profit.

This is going to be a long term battle.
 
What do you propose that the US do? The US has a $560 billion trade deficit, 2/3 of that with China. The US loses anywhere between $220 billion to $600 billion EVERY YEAR in ip theft to China. This has led to the total collapse of US manufacturing and poses an enormous environmental crisis throughout the world as China relies on coal, and will continue to do so for a minimum of 30 more years.

What solutions do you propose?

BTW, it is false to claim that chinese manufacturers are not going to pay for the tariffs. At least some US companies have requested that chinese manufacturers split the tariff bill:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/24/tra...owner-says-trumps-tariffs-will-hit-sales.html

Not to mention with higher priced goods from china, their products will become less competitive, reducing their sales and profit.

This is going to be a long term battle.

Government action is more of a gesture, trying to show people that it is doing something. However, we all know that government is not in full control, businesses in general are the one's that have more leverage.

And we all know that businesses exist for a reason, and that is "profit". It is a very complicated situation with lots of variables. And whenever there is change, businesses that are already thriving in the status quo are always worried and always have reservations.
 
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I will gladly pay more for ebikes or other products for that matter if it helps to halt or slow down IP theft in the future. As an owner of a U.S. based design and manufacturing business, I will tell you that it is very unsettling to spend thousands of dollars, over a year designing, prototyping and building a brand piece of machinery only to see it knocked off 6 months later in China with a very similar design and parts without any of the stringent safety features implemented in ours and nothing we can do about it.

How do you reckon that paying more by way of tariffs is going to do anything to slow IP theft down the line? That seems like a very foolish position to take by my measurements and don’t see what you’re intending coming to fruition at any time soon.

Unless the US invests trillions on bringing complete manufacturing back to the US, something that will literally never happen btw, then nothing’s going to change; moreover, for manufacturing to return, we would need to build everything to cover all aspects of the process from start to finish which will both have an extreme cost associated while also likely being highly automated should it actually return. Why does that matter? Even if it comes back, which it won’t due to costs and complexity, the jobs won’t be returning with these new plants.

This is all a massive pissing match and we, the consumers, are the losers. Bigly.
 
How do you reckon that paying more by way of tariffs is going to do anything to slow IP theft down the line? That seems like a very foolish position to take by my measurements and don’t see what you’re intending coming to fruition at any time soon.

Unless the US invests trillions on bringing complete manufacturing back to the US, something that will literally never happen btw, then nothing’s going to change; moreover, for manufacturing to return, we would need to build everything to cover all aspects of the process from start to finish which will both have an extreme cost associated while also likely being highly automated should it actually return. Why does that matter? Even if it comes back, which it won’t due to costs and complexity, the jobs won’t be returning with these new plants.

This is all a massive pissing match and we, the consumers, are the losers. Bigly.

The US added 138,000 manufacturing jobs in 2017.

The manufacturing sector is also at it's high point in the past 3 years 2014 to 2017.

https://money.cnn.com/2017/12/04/news/economy/manufacturing-jobs-trump-2017/index.html

I have no problem paying an extra $100 for an ebike if it means hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs are added to the economy.
 
If it was only $100 extra, maybe we could live with it. But let me give you an idea of some of the real economic issues involved with making an ebike, since that's what we're discussing here:

- To make an ebike end-to-end you need space. Lots of space, like a warehouse type thing. But, you know, we're not in China, we have something called 'winter' and warehouses need to be heated to make sure the metal goodies in them do not rust or get covered in mold. Also workers shouldn't freeze to death. But heating is stupidly expensive, even for households let alone businesses. Also, businesses pay a lot more (like, twice the rate) than individuals for these sorts of services.
- Now, you also need workers: engineers and factory floor people. Well I happen to live in a country which has the worst designers imaginable. The store fronts, ads, everything is ugly beyond belief. It's just like China, basically. So doing this in-house is unrealistic anyway because aesthetics isn't something people are taught.
- Factory operators... as far as I'm concerned, the zombie apocalypse has already happened here. The 'lower skilled' workers are irresponsible, meandering drunks. They categorically do not want money, they don't want to work, they just want to magically have their life sorted for them. I have friends who run all sorts of businesses and the 'labourer' demographic is zombieland.
- Metal... now this country is one of the major producers of metal, but since 2018 Rusal (Russian Aluminum, that's what we use to make frames) is under sanctions.
- Machinery... needs to be imported, also from China because we don't produce this kind of stuff anymore. Also, on a like-for-like basis, it is easier (proven by experience) to buy Chinese equipment and reengineer it yourself than pay 4x and get it from Germany or Finland. And this is where the fun begins. I have no problems paying for, say, a hydroforming rig. It's a dream of sorts. But the problem isn't in paying for it, it's the actual import process. You see, apart from the 30% import fees (I can live with those), the process of clearing customs can take, like, a year, and requires Kafka-esque amounts of bureacracy, long queues and government officials trying their best to prove that you're importing dual-use equipment.
- Ebike-specific components need to be bought from Germany anyway. If you buy a motor or a battery that's all tax-free and good, if you buy a dozen, that's 30% on top of everything and long customs clearance procedures once again. The current lead time for Bosch is what, 6 months anyway, so it's up to a year before you can actually build anything.
- There are no training companies here for these products. Bosch, Yamaha and others are not present here to do repairs if something goes wrong.
- You cannot dump hazardous chemicals into the sewer system. You cannot throw away lithium arbitrarily. Obvious stuff, what's not obvious is that utilization has costs too, and those need to be factored in to the bike's cost.
- Finally, the internal market has no demand for these bikes anyway. It's mainly USA and Europe. Well, apart from the issues of transporting Li-Ion (or setting up logistics so that the frames and the batteries join somewhere), there's bureaucracy in export control and an additional layer of bureaucracy if you repatriate foreign income (export control, currency control). It's a huge, meaningless bureaucratic mess, the whole point of this is that you can be accused of money laundering at any time. Your own bank can block any transaction it doesn't like for security reasons. It's easy to paralize someone's business this way.

I mean, I could go on, but in reality it's not realistic to have production here. It's easier to give up your IP but be able to build something worthwhile. The only realistic way of doing something like this in Europe would be to go to a special economic zone (e.g., Canaries) and set up shop there. Hey, I might do that someday!
 
The US added 138,000 manufacturing jobs in 2017.

The manufacturing sector is also at it's high point in the past 3 years 2014 to 2017.

https://money.cnn.com/2017/12/04/news/economy/manufacturing-jobs-trump-2017/index.html

I have no problem paying an extra $100 for an ebike if it means hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs are added to the economy.

Those 138,000 jobs are pre-tariffs and the data is almost a year old, it's no longer relevant as the environment has shifted drastically between now and then.

Next:
A whole 138,000? How many are lost due to tariffs?
Everything I've read says tons of jobs are on the cutting block now or will be very soon:

https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/31/news/chamber-of-commerce-trade-jobs/index.html

400,000 expected losses here.
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-tariffs-trade-war-layoffs-business-losses-2018-8

400,000 expected losses here, too.
https://tradepartnership.com/report...ted-impacts-of-tariffs-on-steel-and-aluminum/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuart...ffs-not-immigrants-costing-jobs/#6eed107d313f

https://www.fastcompany.com/90180122/the-u-s-job-losses-from-trumps-tariffs-are-starting-to-pile-up

The US Chamber is suggesting up to 2 million might be lost.
https://www.uschamber.com/tariffs


The US economy is chugging along now due to unprecedented stock buy backs from companies and the US generally bailing out big business by way of fraudulent tax breaks. Us, the little guy, us, the consumers, we see no benefit of any of these breaks and, in fact, suffer when these tariffs begin to both raise prices and begin creating job losses.
 
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