New High Torque IGH announced by 3x3

[TPEHAK]

OK, I didn't think about it until now. Where do I mound the rear brake lever and the seat post dropper trigger? This 3x3 twist gear shifter moves everything in the middle of the handlebar away from the grip.

Is there like shorter handlebar grip for the right side and regular size handlebar for the left side grip set to make it a little bit more anatomically compatible with human body?

 

[TPEHAK]

Alright, it looks like there are some asymmetrical grips options on the market for twist shifters

 

[TPEHAK]

Started lacing the wheel. Decided to use DT Swiss SKN03 2 x 16 mm brass nipples with SpokePrep instead of the recommended SAPIM POLYAX 14MM 14 GAUGE SILVER LOCKING BRASS NIPPLES.

Amazon.com : DT Swiss Unisex's SKN03 Bike Parts, Standard, 2 x 16 mm : Bike Wheel Nipples : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com : DT Swiss Unisex's SKN03 Bike Parts, Standard, 2 x 16 mm : Bike Wheel Nipples : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

Amazon.com: Wheelsmith Mini Spoke Prep, 15ml - Blue : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com: Wheelsmith Mini Spoke Prep, 15ml - Blue : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

 

[ava1ar]

My Kindernay VII is over.

Sad news How many miles have you got on yours?
Mine first did ~1800 miles before dying (was very early version) and 2nd is currently at ~5800 miles (late version). Leaking like hell, but works so far...

P.S. Thanks for sharing your progress with 3x3 - it might be a future path for all of Kinderney riders... As I see you went with mechanical shifter, this means there is no way to use electronic shifter, right? As far as I saw, it only works with latest Bosch smart system bikes

 

[ava1ar]

We are building a few samples with a 3x3 hub and a Bafang ultra motor.
Our prototypes will be ready by January 2025. I will update the forum with some pictures by then.

Any updates on this effort? Would be interesting to see high power mid motor + 3x3 hub combo.

 

[TPEHAK]

Sad news How many miles have you got on yours?
Mine first did ~1800 miles before dying (was very early version) and 2nd is currently at ~5800 miles (late version). Leaking like hell, but works so far...

P.S. Thanks for sharing your progress with 3x3 - it might be a future path for all of Kinderney riders... As I see you went with mechanical shifter, this means there is no way to use electronic shifter, right? As far as I saw, it only works with latest Bosch smart system bikes

My Kindernay VII last probably 7000 miles or so.

The electronic shifter can be installed instead of the mechanical shifter, it replaces the cables with rotary shifter and the mechanism attached on the brake side of the hub. If you want to replace the mechanical shifter by the electronic shifter you need to purchase only the electronic shifter kit and the hub stays the same. And it works only with Bosch systems as I know.

 

[TPEHAK]

The wheel is complete and it is heavy as hell. I hope this heaviness reflects the durability of the gear hub. Now the most annoying part, removing the Kindernay cables and installing the 3x3 cables

 

[ava1ar]

My Kindernay VII last probably 7000 miles or so.

The electronic shifter can be installed instead of the mechanical shifter, it replaces the cables with rotary shifter and the mechanism attached on the brake side of the hub. If you want to replace the mechanical shifter by the electronic shifter you need to purchase only the electronic shifter kit and the hub stays the same. And it works only with Bosch systems as I know.

I will most probably be close to 7k by end of this season - lets see if I am going to need to upgrade this year.
I saw the sets with electronic shifter, great to see this option, but since I am on legacy Bosch platform it won't work. And I really don't want to go to rotary shifter and cable after perfect Kinderney hydraulic shifter.
Still waiting for thr Pinion MGU ebikes to come to US - this might be an alternative path forward.

 

[TPEHAK]

One screw for the torque arm is missing. There should be 10 of M4x10mm flathead T20 screws and I found only 9 in the bag with fasteners. That would be nice if they would put extra fasteners just in case especially for such expensive kit.

McMaster has such screws in back-oxide finish but those will rust, so the only replacements are zinc plated or high strength stainless steel screws

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

 

[ava1ar]

View attachment 194543

I assume only their own brake rotors fit the setup? It in understandable, but kudos again to Kinderney, who was ableto keep standard rotors support in their VII model. How is the rotor overall? Which brakes setup do you use? I am using 2-piece Magura rotors with their MT5e brakes and 3x3 rotor would be definitely a downgeade, both visually and functionally...

 

[TPEHAK]

Yes, only their expensive rotor fits it, just like Kindernay XIV. If it will become popular maybe someone else will make different rotors for this hub (I know there are non Kindernay brake rotors for Kindernay XIV for instance).

The rotor is pretty thick so maybe it will last longer than regular rotors. It also has a mounting hole for magnet if someone has magnet in brake rotor for speed sensor.

I use the cheapest 4 pistons Magura brakes with it.

 

[TPEHAK]

The installation is complete. Will see how it performs.

For the cables housing I used 4mm Jagwire lex sl cable hosing

Amazon.com : Jagwire 4mm Derailleur Housing w/ L3 Liner, Roll/25' Black : Bike Cables And Cable Housings : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com : Jagwire 4mm Derailleur Housing w/ L3 Liner, Roll/25' Black : Bike Cables And Cable Housings : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

For the cables caps I used these 4 mm aluminum caps

Amazon.com : ALEOED 4mm/5mm Bike Brake Cable End Cap Derailleur Shifter Wire Cable Aluminum Alloy End Cap Ferrules for MTB Road Bicycle : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com : ALEOED 4mm/5mm Bike Brake Cable End Cap Derailleur Shifter Wire Cable Aluminum Alloy End Cap Ferrules for MTB Road Bicycle : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

For the handlebar grips I used Ergon Ga2 Grips.

Amazon.com : Ergon GA2 Single Twist MTB All-Mountain Bike Grips – Ergonomic, Adjustable, Soft German Rubber for Trail, XC, Freeride & Bikepacking, Black : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com : Ergon GA2 Single Twist MTB All-Mountain Bike Grips – Ergonomic, Adjustable, Soft German Rubber for Trail, XC, Freeride & Bikepacking, Black : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

The chain tensioner is Problem Solvers Two-Pulley Chain Tensioner

Two-Pulley Chain Tensioner

This Problem Solvers Two-Pulley Tensioner is for use with single-speed drivetrains. Two-Pulley Chain Tensioner Instructions

problemsolversbike.com

To fit this chain tensioner I used this long Derailleur Hanger Extension

Amazon.com : WHYHKJ Bicycle Rear Derailleur Hanger Extension 32T/36T/40T/42T/44T/46T/50T/52T/56T MTB Mountain Road Bike Speed Change Frame Gear Tail Hook Extender, Black : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com : WHYHKJ Bicycle Rear Derailleur Hanger Extension 32T/36T/40T/42T/44T/46T/50T/52T/56T MTB Mountain Road Bike Speed Change Frame Gear Tail Hook Extender, Black : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

 

[TPEHAK]

I took it for a spin and it works great! The rear wheel is rock solid, there is no any wobble (my Kindernay VII had some freeplay). I also feel like this gear hub noise level is lower than Kindernay noise level. So far so good.

 

[whittemoregulch]

I took it for a spin and it works great! The rear wheel is rock solid, there is no any wobble (my Kindernay VII had some freeplay). I also feel like this gear hub noise level is lower than Kindernay noise level. So far so good.

Say, how is the project going after a few more weeks under your belt?

1. How is shifting performance and under load? How well does it work under steep grades or if you fail to anticipate gear changes and wind up short?
2. How are the gear transitions between 3 and 4, and 6 and 7? How does the hub sound at gears 1-3, 4-6, and 7-9? Do they sound different in each of these ranges?
3. Is there a break in period? Has the sound of the hub changed at all with use? How many miles of use so far?
4. How would you compare the sound to a Rohloff, assuming you have used one?
5. Are the 9 gear steps over a wider range not overly steep for an ebike like yours?
6. Have you weighed the rear wheel without the tire? With the tire?
7. Do you overall recommend the 3X3 overall based on experience?

FYI, I'm down the conversion funnel of getting this hub for my emtb, but haven't pulled the trigger yet (slightly held up until I get a better beat on tarifs).

 

[TPEHAK]

1) I did not shift it under load so I do not know. It works without issues under steep grade if I fail to anticipate gear changes and wind up short, the motor is powerful enough (Bafang M620 with 3000W Innotrace controller)
2) The gear transition is good and the same between all gears. The hub is silent at all gears if you rotate the crank arms. If you roll and do not rotate the crank arms the ratched sound is loud at gears 1-3 and quieter at other gears (comparable with regular rear wheel hub with derailleur sound).
3) I do not feel any break in period, it still works the same as the day one. The sound of the hub is the same as the day one. I have maybe 200 miles on it.
4) I do not know, I did not use Rohloff.
5) The gear step is not steep, I even shift two gears per time sometimes (but I have high torque and high voltage motor with wide RPM range so for a regular e-bike motor the gear step is probably perfect).
6) I did not weight my rear wheel.
7) I do recommend the 3x3 so far.

The only issue I found so far is the gear shifter cables length adjusting ferrules do not have any fixing features and they rotate under tension and vibration and after a couple rides cause shortening the cables, increasing the rotary shifter freeplay and misalignment with the gear indicator marks.

 

[ava1ar]

1) I did not shift it under load so I do not know. It works without issues under steep grade if I fail to anticipate gear changes and wind up short, the motor is powerful enough (Bafang M620 with 3000W Innotrace controller)
2) The gear transition is good and the same between all gears. The hub is silent at all gears if you rotate the crank arms. If you roll and do not rotate the crank arms the ratched sound is loud at gears 1-3 and quieter at other gears (comparable with regular rear wheel hub with derailleur sound).
3) I do not feel any break in period, it still works the same as the day one. The sound of the hub is the same as the day one. I have maybe 200 miles on it.
4) I did not use Rohloff.
5) The gear step is not steep, I even shift two gears per time sometimes (but I have high torque and high voltage motor with wide RPM rage so for a regular e-bike motor the gear step is probably prefect).
6) I did not weight my rear wheel.
7) I do recommend the 3x3 so far.

The only issue I found so far is the gear shifter cables length adjusting ferrules do not have any fixing features and they rotate under tension and vibration and after a couple rides cause shortening the cables, increasing the rotary shifter freeplay and misalignment with the gear indicator.

Great feedback, thanks! Shifter is definitely week point being cable-driven This is main reason I still using my Kindernay - their shifter is state od the art. I would use electric one for 3x3, but it is not compatible with my older gen bosch motor...

 

[whittemoregulch]

Great feedback, thanks! Shifter is definitely week point being cable-driven This is main reason I still using my Kindernay - their shifter is state od the art. I would use electric one for 3x3, but it is not compatible with my older gen bosch motor...

1) I did not shift it under load so I do not know. It works without issues under steep grade if I fail to anticipate gear changes and wind up short, the motor is powerful enough (Bafang M620 with 3000W Innotrace controller)
2) The gear transition is good and the same between all gears. The hub is silent at all gears if you rotate the crank arms. If you roll and do not rotate the crank arms the ratched sound is loud at gears 1-3 and quieter at other gears (comparable with regular rear wheel hub with derailleur sound).
3) I do not feel any break in period, it still works the same as the day one. The sound of the hub is the same as the day one. I have maybe 200 miles on it.
4) I do not know, I did not use Rohloff.
5) The gear step is not steep, I even shift two gears per time sometimes (but I have high torque and high voltage motor with wide RPM range so for a regular e-bike motor the gear step is probably perfect).
6) I did not weight my rear wheel.
7) I do recommend the 3x3 so far.

The only issue I found so far is the gear shifter cables length adjusting ferrules do not have any fixing features and they rotate under tension and vibration and after a couple rides cause shortening the cables, increasing the rotary shifter freeplay and misalignment with the gear indicator marks.

Thanks for this feedback. When you get a chance, try to shift under load. If not on a grade, just grab the brakes and mash the pedals while shifting both up from a low gear and down from a higher gear. In general shift difficulty is more pronounced in the lower gears because additional gear reduction mechanisms come into play and conversely more direct-drive-ish in the higher gears.

BTW, Since my bike has a Gen 4 Bosch CX motor, I'll be going with the electronic shifter.

 

[TPEHAK]

OK. I just tested shifting under load without motor assist and I was not able to upshift and downshift under load (I did not crank the twist shifter like crazy to not brake the stuff, but I put enough force after which shifting is unreasonably hard). I eased force on pedals but not completely stopped pedaling and I was able to shift but the shifting had significantly more resistance (both up and down) than shifting without load.

I would not practice shifting this gearhub under load.

 

[whittemoregulch]

OK. I just tested shifting under load without motor assist and I was not able to upshift and downshift under load (I did not crank the twist shifter like crazy to not brake the stuff, but I put enough force after which shifting is unreasonably hard). I eased force on pedals but not completely stopped pedaling and I was able to shift but the shifting had significantly more resistance (both up and down) than shifting without load.

I would not practice shifting this gearhub under load.

Thanks for the test. Yes. This sounds about what would be expected from any IGH or gearbox that has straight gears, which can handle more power under load and is what you will need with that Bafang. Based on this, I think the electronic shifting option with the updated Bosch firmware will obviate this effect. It would be cool if other motors were supported besides the Bosch Gen4/Gen5.

 

[Gionnirocket]

1) I did not shift it under load so I do not know. It works without issues under steep grade if I fail to anticipate gear changes and wind up short, the motor is powerful enough (Bafang M620 with 3000W Innotrace controller)
2) The gear transition is good and the same between all gears. The hub is silent at all gears if you rotate the crank arms. If you roll and do not rotate the crank arms the ratched sound is loud at gears 1-3 and quieter at other gears (comparable with regular rear wheel hub with derailleur sound).
3) I do not feel any break in period, it still works the same as the day one. The sound of the hub is the same as the day one. I have maybe 200 miles on it.
4) I do not know, I did not use Rohloff.
5) The gear step is not steep, I even shift two gears per time sometimes (but I have high torque and high voltage motor with wide RPM range so for a regular e-bike motor the gear step is probably perfect).
6) I did not weight my rear wheel.
7) I do recommend the 3x3 so far.

The only issue I found so far is the gear shifter cables length adjusting ferrules do not have any fixing features and they rotate under tension and vibration and after a couple rides cause shortening the cables, increasing the rotary shifter freeplay and misalignment with the gear indicator marks.

Interesting that you don't find the gear step too steep being 24%
I find the Rohloff with 14% steps at times can be tight but you can change 3 gears as easily as 1. But most of the time I appreciate being able to dial in a perfect gear while maintaining motor efficiency. I ride for exercise and my worn chicken legs have a small window where cadence and effort blend in a comfortable way. I also have my first 4 PAS tightly spaced (my most used for exercise) for the same reason... Sometimes I just need that extra 50 watts and being to dial it in makes the Ultra very efficient.
I'm still not at my typical summer peak stamina and I'm averaging just under 10wh/mi on a 24mi ride with a fair amount of hills and a mean speed of 16.5mph. That number usually increase on longer rides as most of the hills are close to home.
That said I think you can make adjustments in riding to make most hardware do what you want. Good to know that the 3x3 is a good hi torque alternative to the Rohloff.