Need opinions from Creo and Vado SL riders

[Stefan Mikes]

You made me laugh, kahn!

I am not really sure of the affect/effect of spelling TIRES wrong.

like about 10 pounds (weight, not English money )

According to the inhabitants of England (the insular country across the pond)

tldr;
-- note: the pound sterling is the currency of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, not just of England! (although I am not sure how the matters were affected by the Scottish pound) --
/tldr;

you are driving on the wrong side of the road! (Did you know the British had their bike brake levers swapped by sides?)

I went with aluminum for two reasons. One was price but I probably could have afforded more. The second reason might have been wrong as I really still don't know "new" carbon frames and strength. I have a Carbon Trek Madone. It was strictly limited to how much weight could be placed on any rack - like about 10 pounds (weight, not English money ). I did not want that type of weight limit on this most recent purchase. I wanted a rack and panniers as I prefer less weight on my back with a backpack. Therefore, I opted for the aluminum frame.

If a Specialized gravel e-bike were available in aluminium (not aluminum), I could buy one because of the lower price. Having owned three fully equipped e-bikes, I need neither mudguards nor rear rack on a performance e-bike. I am sceptical about carbon fibre e-bikes as I don't know how brittle the construction material is, and how badly it ages.

My actual need is a gravel e-bike (I'm not a roadie type), so I might consider going for a true Specialized gravel e-bike anyway. Still, I think the aluminium version is even more durable than CF is. You can, for instance, buy a Specialized Diverge Alu version. Most of traditional gravel bikes are either alu or steel, with CF reserved for lightweight performance bikes.

If I'm not wrong, the geometry of Alu and CF Creo is identical; the Alu Creo is equipped with a gravel-cycling-approved drivetrain. Perhaps the handlebars between the road and gravel versions are different. Yes, a dropper post (I could live without). So, are the road wheels of the road E5 Creo capable to take wider tyres? Perhaps @mschwett could chime in?

Stefan, you know what test rides lead to ...

Oh, yes Art, rest assured it won't happen soon. (I have tested a Tero and didn't buy it, right?) I cannot buy an e-bike with an internal battery for Winter without proper storage conditions! And I haven't sold the huge contract yet!

 

[mschwett]

Guys,

I had a chance to straddle that beauty on last Saturday:

...

Decidedly, a candidate for a demo ride for Saturday 20th of November! Questions:

1. It is a road bike configuration (tyres!) Would anything wrong happen if I took the e-bike for a gravel/off-road ride? Any chance for damaging anything such as tyres or wheels? Should I rather stay on-road?
2. What are the negative points that owners of Turbo Creo SL Comp E5 could report?
3. Could the e-bike be later upgraded to more gravel-like configuration? What would that take?

Discuss!

i think you already have the answers you need! but here's my take

1) no problem riding the stock wheels and tires on packed dirt or fine gravel. they're not super thin sticky race tires!
2) i'll let E5 owners chime in! but it's heavier and the frame isn't as finely tuned for stiffness vs compliance. the comp carbon model is only $1,000 USD more, for such an already expensive bike you should really ride both. it also has better brakes, better future shock, etc.
3) there are only four real differences between the EVO (Gravel) creo and the regular: tires, dropper post, chainring, and handelbar. 46t vs 44t for the comp models evo vs plain. the gravel bar flares out 12 degrees in the drops and is shallower. 38mm vs 28mm tires. you could switch all those things if you wanted to, although i'd do them one at a time and highly doubt the bars make a bit of difference. i don't see the need for a dropper on a gravel bike, just extra weight and complexity - if you're doing that kind of riding, get an MTB, IMO!

 

[mschwett]

...

My actual need is a gravel e-bike (I'm not a roadie type), so I might consider going for a true Specialized gravel e-bike anyway. Still, I think the aluminium version is even more durable than CF is. You can, for instance, buy a Specialized Diverge Alu version. Most of traditional gravel bikes are either alu or steel, with CF reserved for lightweight performance bikes.

If I'm not wrong, the geometry of Alu and CF Creo is identical; the Alu Creo is equipped with a gravel-cycling-approved drivetrain. Perhaps the handlebars between the road and gravel versions are different. Yes, a dropped post (I could live without). So, are the road wheels of the road E5 Creo capable to take wider tyres? Perhaps @mschwett could chime in?

see my answers in previous post! wheels are exactly the same between the EVO and road. as you may recall from other posts i currently have reneherse 42mm knobby tires on my stock aluminum DT swiss R470 wheels, same ones that come with the E5 creo.

as for the durability of carbon gravel bikes.... my personal experience isn't worth much, but in this part of the world, the mountains are FULL of riders on carbon gravel bikes, carbon MTBs, everything in between, pounding on them for decades and doing so harder than i could ever dream of. the risk with carbon, IMO, is doing something stupid to it yourself like smashing it from the side with a heavy metallic object in the garage or clamping it to hard with your stand or an accessory. not sure of the pricing in your market, but for 17% more i'd get the carbon bike, especially if you really want the EVO, which doesn't exist in E5. you'll spend that much transforming it.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

the comp carbon model is only $1,000 USD more

In the U.S.
The Europe uses the Value-Added Tax and other levies, making the actual price difference of 1,725 US$. Yes, I am aware these things are not cheap!

P.S. @mschwett, thank you so much for your enlightening remarks!

 

[mschwett]

In the U.S.

The Europe uses the Value-Added Tax and other levies, making the actual price difference of 1,725 US$. Yes, I am aware these things are not cheap!

indeed, a more significant difference, to be weighed against the cost of whatever changes you might make to the base version to gravelize it! truthfully, only tires are required to do so, IMO.

 

[Prairie Dog]

@Stefan Mikes - Slapping on a pair of gravel tires transforms the Creo into one versatile machine. Both my wife and I rode with g-rubber over the last two months and felt that the extra rubber on the road didn’t contribute to any significant rolling resistance. In fact, I rode up the Highwood Pass earlier this summer and didn’t notice much difference other than the 700 x 37C Riddlers offered a slightly cushier ride. In fact, we were so impressed that we will likely continue riding on them indefinitely. We will still use the stock road tires for indoor training during the winter season. Much of our rides are in the country and sometimes require us to take rural routes that venture onto rough unpaved/gravel sections. FWIW, we’ve equipped our bikes with WTB Riddlers and Panaracer Gravel Kings.

I got inspired after assessing my brother-in-law ride his Creo Evo which was equipped with stock Specialized Pathfinders. Agree with @mschwett about the flared bars and dropper post.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Slapping on a pair of gravel tires transforms the Creo into one versatile machine.

Art, make me sure: You and wife ride Creos E5, don't you?

 

[Prairie Dog]

Art, make me sure: You and wife ride Creos E5, don't you?

I ride a carbon Exp and my wife a Comp Carbon. You’ll be fine with the E5 as I believe that’s what you would likely prefer. That being said, @mschwett posts with respect to carbon vs aluminum pretty well sums up my feelings on the subject. A comp carbon with alloy wheels might be the ideal compromise.

 

[kahn]

I ride a carbon Exp and my wife a Comp Carbon. You’ll be fine with the E5 as I believe that’s what you would likely prefer. That being said, @mschwett posts with respect to carbon vs aluminum pretty well sums up my feelings on the subject. A comp carbon with alloy wheels might be the ideal compromise.

Interesting takes on help Stefan buy a new bike!

But does anyone have any opinion on my issue of whether a carbon frame can take a rear rack and pannier system? Are there weight limitations like there were on my Trek Carbon Madone? When I spoke with Trek back then, they suggested I could add a seat post rack BUT to replace the carbon fiber seat post with a steel or alloy post to hold only about ten pounds (4.5 kg).

 

[Prairie Dog]

Interesting takes on help Stefan buy a new bike!

But does anyone have any opinion on my issue of whether a carbon frame can take a rear rack and pannier system? Are there weight limitations like there were on my Trek Carbon Madone? When I spoke with Trek back then, they suggested I could add a seat post rack BUT to replace the carbon fiber seat post with a steel or alloy post to hold only about ten pounds (4.5 kg).

I have been seriously considering a Tailfin rack which is sold in both carbon and alloy versions with/without pannier mounts. The racks I believe have a weight carrying capacity of 27 kg or roughly 60 lbs. They’re on the pricey side yes, but a lot of engineering has gone into the build of these racks. The company also offers different mounting options which I think are well thought out. The thru axle mount would allay any fears with regards to mounting to the carbon frame. I have confidence in the Creo's frame integrity so I would likely opt for a frame mount with QR dropouts.

Pannier Rack

The Tailfin Carbon Rack range is the pinnacle in no-compromise, ultralight luggage carrying systems. For riders who want to go fast and light.

www.tailfin.cc

Frequently Asked Questions

Answers to frequently asked questions from our Tailfin community. Product, compatability, shipping, returns queries and more.

www.tailfin.cc

I currently use an Arkel seat post rack but it's weight capacity is only 13lbs.

Randonneur - Seat Post Rack

This Arkel seat post rack with dual attachment points to provide unequaled strength and stability for the Tailrider trunk bag.

www.arkel-od.com

 

[kahn]

I have been seriously considering a Tailfin rack which is sold in both carbon and alloy versions with/without pannier mounts. The racks I believe have a weight carrying capacity of 27 kg or roughly 60 lbs. They’re on the pricey side yes, but a lot of engineering has gone into the build of these racks. The company also offers different mounting options which I think are well thought out. The thru axle mount would allay any fears with regards to mounting to the carbon frame. I have confidence in the Creo's frame integrity so I would likely opt for a frame mount with QR dropouts.

Pannier Rack

The Tailfin Carbon Rack range is the pinnacle in no-compromise, ultralight luggage carrying systems. For riders who want to go fast and light.

www.tailfin.cc

Frequently Asked Questions

Answers to frequently asked questions from our Tailfin community. Product, compatability, shipping, returns queries and more.

www.tailfin.cc

I currently use an Arkel seat post rack but it's weight capacity is only 13lbs.

Randonneur - Seat Post Rack

This Arkel seat post rack with dual attachment points to provide unequaled strength and stability for the Tailrider trunk bag.

www.arkel-od.com

Thanks for that info.

Pricey - some folks only pay that much for an entire bike!!!!

How a "frame mount with QR dropouts"? Don't "we" need through-axle?

 

[Prairie Dog]

Thanks for that info.

Pricey - some folks only pay that much for an entire bike!!!!

How a "frame mount with QR dropouts"? Don't "we" need through-axle?

When one spends as much $$$ we do on our Creos, I think the whole point of acquiring this particular rack could be considered somewhat moot. I’m not sure if there is anything out there that rivals the Tailfin in terms of quality and choice of configurations.

The dropouts are the mechanisms that permit you to remove the rack in seconds from either the thru axle or the frame eyelets rather than leave it on the bike. Makes sense if you’re planning to transfer the rack to another bike. Security screws will allow you to lock it in place whether the mount is thru axle or frame.

https://www.tailfin.cc/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Fast-release-2.mp4?_=2

We're considering some longish road trips and would really like to cycle Vancouver Island/Gulf Islands.

 

[jodi2]

Stefan a test ride of a bike that the shop still wants to sell as “new” usually excludes any offroad use. You should stay on asphalt. But I don’t see much need for it, you can use any (organic) gravel bike from a friend to test what is possible with a gravel bike.

mschwett already explained the differences from Creo road to EVO versions. The handle bar flar is also not much, so it’s not a real big difference. The dropper post is a very cheap one and 50mm is not much for steep downhills (if one really thinks it’s needed on a gravel bike). Two teeth less in front ring is also not much. The best EVO models now have real gravel wheelsets with really wide and strong rims, what is really a difference and really better. But E5 and comp carbon still have the same cheap wheels. So it’s just the tirs, which you can easily swap. Also tire clearance is the same on all Creo frames.

But: I don’t see much need for a Creo SL if you already have a Vado SL, even less for an alloy Creo. If you like the different handle bars you can convert your Vado handlebar. Or a mixture with some more bar ends or bowed bar ends.

the risk with carbon, IMO, is doing something stupid to it yourself like smashing it from the side with a heavy metallic object in the garage or clamping it to hard with your stand or an accessory. not sure of the pricing in your market, but for 17% more i'd get the carbon bike, especially if you really want the EVO, which doesn't exist in E5. you'll spend that much transforming it.

I agree that the price difference between E5 alloy Creo and the comp carbon is high but for the Creo it's the lowest "step", from comp carbon to expert iit hurts much more. For me it was already too much/less worth the money, when the comp carbon was 500€ more and the same 2000€ step to alloy or expert.

But if one really needs a carbon frame or it's worth the extra price for one, everyone has to judge her/himself. But it's not only the weight, lose a pound yourself or invest the money in a good&light wheelset. A well made carbon frame is usually also more comfortable for the rider (is flexing a little bit in the upper part), especially on bikes without suspension, less for a fully MTB. And it's normally stiffer in the lower part around the drivetrain, which brings a little bit more of the rider's power to the rear wheel.
Of course most of this counts even more for pure organic bikes and is less important when you have a motor which still as SL offers much much more power than the losses due to weight or flex in the lower frame.


I disagree with your first part Mark about the sensitivity of carbon frames. This is still a common prejudice but not true. But also not always untrue...
First: It can happen to alloy as well. I had alloy frames as thin or thinner as a can of Coke and terribly sensitive, one broke very early.
Second: There are many examples, that a good carbon frame can be even stronger, stiffer and also less sensitive (also to punctual damage) than a simliar alloy frame.
But it's not automatically true for every carbon frame. I had a three year old Orbea Terra gravel bike with a rock solid carbon frame. I sold it a few weeks ago and inspected the frame after cleaning thoroughly before, it was like new. I used the bike for harsh gravel and have 100kg. The Creo's I used even harder and it's rock solid, even more than the Orbea Terra. I don't have any doubts that the Creo carbon frame stands a rear rack and luggage. But even more important, Specialized thinks so as well and offers officially a special seat post clamp with threads for the rear rack. You don't need special expensive racks, I recommend a Tubus Fly (strong&light&not expensive). I have one on my Creo, but almost not using it yet with bags.
But for example the carbon frame of my new MTB hardtail is very very thin&sensitive, due to punctual damage and also it does not have the strength&stiffness I feel with the Creo. It seems more for races or light riders and it’s not ideal for my weekly use and my weight.

So it depends how or what for a frame is made. Some brands started for example with some lighter high end carbon frame lines, Orbea now often offers alloy/carbon/”team” carbon/sometimes even a limited edition. For my weight and use and wallet I would clearly stay out of the lighter carbon lines. But Specialized also offers 2-3 carbon frame “lines”, but I’m not sure if it’s also always lighter. The Creo has the best/most expensivest carbon line. But this frame is definitely rock solid and made for high usage and loads.
So long story short, it depends and you often can’t be sure about the purpose the manufacturer had while designing a frame.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Thank you very much Jodi for your thoughtful insights! Some remarks:

The Brand Store owns several "demo bikes". They buy them from the distributor at a very low price, keep them distinctly marked, and cannot sell them for (I think) one year (or more). The Vado SL I'm holding in my avatar is precisely a "demo bike". I agree, however, that renting a "display" e-bike (one still to be sold) would exclude any harsh riding. I could rent a "demo" Diverge to ride gravel. Unfortunately, my bad legs eliminate me from riding any unassisted bike.

But: I don’t see much need for a Creo SL if you already have a Vado SL, even less for an alloy Creo. If you like the different handle bars you can convert your Vado handlebar.

There is one stupid detail that makes converting a Vado SL into a drop-handlebar gravel e-bike impossible: it is the handlebar remote. The diameter of the +/- device is unsuitable for road-bike handlebars that are of bigger diameter.

Or a mixture with some more bar ends or bowed bar ends.

I have done whatever possible to my Vado SL handlebars to mimic a gravel e-bike. Ergon GP2 bar-ends and SQLabs Innerbarends. Nothing could beat the feeling of grabbing the hoods on the Creo though...

For several practical reasons, I might not buy a Creo anyway (and certainly not now). I'm just interested how you ride a modern road e-bike, hence the demo ride I'm planning to take. And I would certainly just try the Creo on the route familiar to all Warsaw roadies: Specialized Warsaw to Góra Kalwaria and back. A great thing about November is very few people are riding on such cold a season, so a good chance for no crash!

The classical road bike test route for Warsaw.

The bike cafe in Góra Kalwaria during the warm season.

 

[jodi2]

I remember, you had the Vado Sl also a whole day for testing.
I think in this case I think same gravel/mild offroad is possible without leaving to many signs if it's dry. But it won't be much fun/would give you a wrong impression of the gravel capabilities with 28mm road tires.

 

[Allan47.7339]

Converting a Vado SL to a drop bar is also difficult due to the shifter and brakes are the wrong diameter as well. I've considered converting my Vado SL to drop bar because I haven't ridden it since I got a Creo.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Converting a Vado SL to a drop bar is also difficult due to the shifter and brakes are the wrong diameter as well

You actually need to replace the shifters and brake levers with road shifter/brake lever combo, and it is the best to replace the drivetrain, too. While all of that is doable (but costly), nothing can be done regarding the remote that is the part of Vado SL system.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I remember, you had the Vado Sl also a whole day for testing.
I think in this case I think same gravel/mild offroad is possible without leaving to many signs if it's dry. But it won't be much fun/would give you a wrong impression of the gravel capabilities with 28mm road tires.

I also had a Tero on a demo ride, and it was obvious I could ride it off-road if the e-bike returned just dirty but not apparently damaged. Spec WAW let another guy test their Kenevo SL in hard off-road, too (I could see the e-bike post-ride: it was totally covered with mud!)

I agree I would get wrong impression riding a road e-bike in gravel-cycling terrain. One thing is good: we don't have very much of gravel roads around: it is either asphalt or hardpack dirt.

 

[JeffC57]

Stefan
I am late to this discussion but did test ride the E5 and the carbon frame Creos before I bought my CC EVO. My 180 lb. body just liked the carbon frame more than the E5. The carbon frame does a better job of dampening pavement vibration. A lot of the urban streets in my neighborhood use chip seal which is not as smooth as asphalt or concrete. The ride is just smoother. As for tires, I still am using the stock tires which have a flat patch in the center and ridges on the sides. They work fine for where I ride which is pavement and rail trails. My unpaved riding is fairly conservative. More aggressive unpaved riding would probably require a different tire but I am sure you could find something.
Others have described what the EVO version includes. Most are simple changes. The carbon frame will limit what you can attach to it including a kick stand. You will just have to ride a carbon frame to decide if it is worth it for you.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Thank you Jeff! Any post from Creo owners makes me understand the matters more and more clearly.

The carbon frame will limit what you can attach to it including a kick stand.

If I ever buy a road or gravel e-bike, I intend to be as kosher as possible! No kickstand!

You will just have to ride a carbon frame to decide if it is worth it for you.

This might be problematic. I don't think the Spec Brand Store has got any demo CF Creo. I might talk with the friendly salesman to let me shortly ride one of their display CF Creos. (My Vado SL -- for which I got a discount -- was a display e-bike with 14 km already ridden on).