My UC Pro has arrived

[Ebiker33]

I'm not a Gates fanboy, but you posed https://electricbikereview.com/foru...-or-stretched-out-their-gates-belt-yet.42298/ and pretty much got a "NO" (but somebody's Honda did).
In that question's preamble you started with the false dilemma: The Ultra is famous for snapping chains if you hit the throttle in the wrong gear or really push it at the higher watts. However, again, searching those terms "Ultra snaps chain" https://electricbikereview.com/forums/search/3056919/?q=ultra+snaps+chain&t=post&o=relevance, only produces you saying "people say ultras are famous for snapping chains ..." etc.
I quoted you and a Guru told me 'no such problem exists'. I'm the guy from the start that has insisted one needed the Gates Laser Alignment tool and precise tension, I whined 'the easily damaged fibered belt may not be able to take those extreme bends either', but it did and it has proven me wrong.
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I just returned from a '+96Nm throttle' jaunt on a 60lb bike, WOT up hills, from a stop, 25mph when permitted - no speed trial today, just stocking up a case of Stone IPA - 'nother 16lbs - to keep out of the store for the next few (covid) days. I like to use it to burn out of corners, when I can't pedal for fear of a strike.
I'm crossing 1000watts on TS - about 100Nm and indeed, from a start, it can take off without you and will do a wheel over - if one was not mounted.
750watts,roughly 75Nm at the shaft and 150Nm @ 1500watts and 200Nm at 2000watts. Archon has a 7% efficiency increase (Tuned Controller) and the ability to crank 3000watts peak. If I was Puskar I'd put that baby on a dyno and post the film.
But it's not the (unlimited) throttles are dangerous. Thumb throttles, in control of 2 - 3000watts are crystalized dynamite.
One twitch = 1000watts. Hit a bump, thumb twitches jumps to 1800watts ... + use of an unrestricted throttle voids Kindernay's warranty.
Twist grip throttles are another beast; smooth; firmly controlled; fits the high performance package - not just goofball cruising with a throttle.
I find this as playing drums, like dancing. You move your feet, now clap your hands and nod your head, swivel you hips and wave your arms.
Not too hard to play two bass drums on one mental circuit while banging the skins on another, thinking that way. Same with a twist throttle/ pedaling/ changing gears and mastering the entire package that makes this bike what it is .
Ooops. Wrong funny-face, -of-the-walk, wait, wait. That's not it either. I mean the . That's it.
Time out of mind [riding] the dragon
Children we have it right here
It's the light in my eyes
It's perfection and grace
It's the smile on my face
(Thanks Deacon - but you're a winner!).
So (staying in thematical color here) "Black Friday" 'isn't neigh', and the (FOX TVesque echoes of) semi-Biblical rumors of rumors re: chain breaking/ belt shredding wars are unsubstantiated to any meaningful degree, so put yer socks and shoes back on and research it yourself, without starting at a conclusion (wag, wag). lol.
Once set on a conviction, I'm the hard-headest fool to convince otherwise - but remind myself I'm seeking knowledge, not "gunnin' for the man who stole my water" (ala @ Rome - Me message: Lighten up homie. You know your a clutz. Fix it and keep breaking/ fixing until it won't break, rinse and repeat - n' hugs).
Christmas Eve, Me n' the crew playin on the the big display (I'm hogging right now) - Steely Dan in the background, wailing 'I cried when I wrote this song' .... God Bless America and Canada as well - look around, so much to be grateful for. And Dang. I'm already plotting another grand worth of parts buy on the 26th - because I said 'no more bike stuff till after Christmas, Paul' - not because my child is dying of hunger
These guys are "gonna kill [me] w/ my pacifist bullchyte" - as they put it, so I have to go - Hey, for Christmas they all gave themselves firearms, now they're playing Pink Floyd, Lunatic, fondling and babbling muzzle velocity / v impact. lol.
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So signing off on a Note of Goodwill to the community (and if I don't post any more madness, they probably killed me to play nintendo).
Hey!!! This could fly on tik tock: 'idiot influencer pleas on forum for help from bullies' - Gyyyyyaaaak. Okay bro, the nintendo. Let go'a my damn neck.

Happy Doc Holidays (Gyyyyaaaak. They made me say that) !!!

Fn'F

I am not going back to research it, to find it, but one owner of an ultra said he busted three chains, he admitted it might be to improper technique which speaks to your post.
You seem like might be drinking tonight so I won't go any further than that

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Pedaling is not an issue as you slowly ramp up; 2300W is not even an issue.
Sondors Ebikes which doesn't even allow too much wattage were breaking chains off the line with the Ultra.
For sure if you have the 2300W version of the X1 and you program it to take full wattage from the throttle you are going to have issues at some point.
And the point of a 750W throttle is to help you take off from a stop, once up to speed you can pedal at full wattage, beyond the 750W setting.
Also once you have momentum from pedaling and you switch back to throttle it's not as much of a strain on the system.
The issues are the sudden start at max wattage via throttle, being in the wrong gear going up a hill makes it even worse.

Wow. Hey, Sondors is a cheap, heavy bike w a cheap chain and everything else.
Way lower quality than a Frey, which is far below a WW Custom. Sondors has a stock Bafang Controller. They didn't control the wattage, Bafang did.
"if you have the 2300W version of the X1 and you program it to take full wattage from the throttle you are going to have issues at some point" ??? I'm'a gonna program that full 2300watts I ordered wide open and use it as I feel it should be. Not like a dolt - pedal-to-the-metal.
Who drives a car like that? "Look Ma, WOT'? You have any (non-Sondors) evidence that's true?
Thing is, a Sondors' hardly worth repairing. Cast alloy, crumbling w/ 1000watts G510; chains flying off; stock controller, etc.
Not Deacon's bike. Not the bike I ordered. I coulda bought a Frey and certainly woulda built something first. Pfffft.

 

[Merle Nelson]

Ebiker33, are you saying the most I can get out of the throttle is 750 Watts?
When I used the throttle I was travelling along at around 22mph (in level 4) and I wanted to see if I could maintain that speed by just using the throttle.
I could, but just barely and no additional mph could be gained by using the throttle.

Can you tell me how pedalling at, say, 1000W is less harmful to the running gear than just using the throttle at the same wattage?

In the end it's probably a moot point, since 99% of my riding is done without using the throttle. I just wanted to see if I could cruise along at 24mph by just using my throttle. I couldn't
The only time I do use the throttle is to get my large, heavy bike going from a stop. I love his bike, but it's a pig off the line.

DB what you describe about going along at 22mph and throttle barely maintaining that reminds me of the feeling I get on my Scott bike that has no throttle. I'll be going down hill on smooth straight stretches and when I pedal up to 20 mph the power starts being cut from the motor. I can maintain that speed but just barely and it takes a little more effort. Is it possible you're hitting a speed limiter?

 

[Ebiker33]

Wow. Hey, Sondors is a cheap, heavy bike w a cheap chain and everything else.
Way lower quality than a Frey, which is far below a WW Custom. Sondors has a stock Bafang Controller. They didn't control the wattage, Bafang did.
"if you have the 2300W version of the X1 and you program it to take full wattage from the throttle you are going to have issues at some point" ??? I'm'a gonna program that full 2300watts I ordered wide open and use it as I feel it should be. Not like a dolt - pedal-to-the-metal.
Who drives a car like that? "Look Ma, WOT'? You have any (non-Sondors) evidence that's true?
Thing is, a Sondors' hardly worth repairing. Cast alloy, crumbling w/ 1000watts G510; chains flying off; stock controller, etc.
Not Deacon's bike. Not the bike I ordered. I coulda bought a Frey and certainly woulda built something first. Pfffft.

Here is an example of a snapped belt on a expensive R&M Superdelite, so it is happening.
See page 2
Example # 1

 

[Deacon Blues]

DB what you describe about going along at 22mph and throttle barely maintaining that reminds me of the feeling I get on my Scott bike that has no throttle. I'll be going down hill on smooth straight stretches and when I pedal up to 20 mph the power starts being cut from the motor. I can maintain that speed but just barely and it takes a little more effort. Is it possible you're hitting a speed limiter?

I don't think there's a speed limiter on my WW. I've hit 30mph a couple of times, while riding on the flats, and the only reason I couldn't go faster was the chain skipping in the smallest two cassette cogs.

 

[Deacon Blues]

No riding today......

 

[Merle Nelson]

BUT......"It's a white, white, Christmas. ...."

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I understand. Nothing of consequence exists. You see it as I came to. It's rumors of rumors.
That's not an Ultra, that's a Bosch. Okay, even at that, Transamspirits question: "is anyone else experiencing the fraying of the belt on the engine side only? This fraying runs the length of the belt" says volumes.
His motor froze, the belt locked up. Hell yes it broke. Came off and jammed (He calls it becoming "difficult to pedal" lol), so he applied power.
Sounds like the belt was actually STRONGER than HIS MOTOR and killed the Bosch - before snapping and whippin' him for committing such mindless abuse. First sign of drag, I stop and inspect - not pedal harder.
His motor froze up, belt broke = thus all motors with belts freeze, or all frozen motors break belts?
I also note his plea for commiserating comrades suffering like distress fell flat, but for (Ta da, again) rumors of (ancient) rumors.
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I'm not aboard with IGH's - for me. I'm just not good enough. My insecurity dictates first have to train w/ the Ultra 2300W and a chain.
No sense in me destroying a $2K IGH - that's my inexperience and awareness. I need more feets-on education first, not the IGH's fault.
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KXIV is rated for 160Nm MAX. I'm not much for "Gotcha" fine print warrantees, but ...
The most recent iteration Gates is also rated for 160Nm - again, both stronger than that Bosch.
Tensioners must be approved by Gates.
The belt must be installed carefully as kinking will cause damage.
The belt must be aligned precisely, >2mm tolerance.
The belt must be tensioned correctly. 45- 65Hz is common (HD).
https://www.gatescarbondrive.com/resources/handling-and-tension
I'm yet to find documentation of systemic failures, or any failures where proper inspection and adjustment had been verified.
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Honestly, 'owner belt failure' documentations generally exude cluelessness and dependency on a mechanic - while 10hrs of study (with the free mechanic courses gates offers), practice and $200 in tools can make you a pro - but finding ones time more valuable - I'm retired - a mechanic that's certified on Gates/ your IGH (and the ability to ask knowledgeable questions to verify it) is a wise choice - and tip appropriately, send them a Christmas gift, praise the photos of their ugly kids and décor, whatever it takes.
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Resolving that, trained-in autonomic skills are paramount. Push WW's machines over 1500watts, it's not '160Nm winding up to be available', it's 'instant 160Nm torque-on' effect.
So, drive responsibly. Hey, I wore a fire suit - even a catheter - for a hobby.
Peeing in (350mi rally leg) snow = disqualified. Plus, lose your time spot if not caught.
Never-mind it's 120F blast of wind, through that desert at 130mph, respiring/ perspiring, boiling 4oz H2O a minute in that suit - for 50mins. Deviate = Disqualified.
Lose the flow, downshift from 5th to 2nd or 4th to 1st - blown tranny.
I remember trying a baja (early Silver State triad) thing.
Modulating brakes/ throttle in a slide 'till I'm in 'that spot' and blast WOT up the hill; then full brake, downshifting 3 gears, and severe tight turn - coming out I'm WOT again, down the hill and on the straight - now, 160+ for 30 seconds, a game of chicken as 20mph Mountain turns loom and I'm 6 seconds behind my time.
The radio call, 'GT2RS gone, ahead at K201. Sand. Stay in center road' ruined me. My last event.
Eye witness accounts confirm he (and wife copilot) were going 170mph, he appeared to look down and drifted ever so slightly to the right.
In a split second the sand caught him, he overreacted, spinning the car and it tripped sideways, flipping over - again and again in an un-survivable ball of flames.
I don't really even want to think of this on Christmas. We had a party all planned at Carlos and Charlies (him stomping that +700hp camaro-bodied monster).
But they died better than most of us will, so I salute the pursuit of excellence, eschewing the mundane.
Screw mediocracy.
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There's a (big) 'Boy with a Barn' running a +2300w WW Hydra, Gates, K XIV.
He'll not suffer too many more fools - I probably burned him out - but if you really want to know, leave the loaded questions behind and ask.
No Cow Dung in that guys Manger. He knows things and he shares.


Light a man a fire, he's warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, he's burning forever.

No riding today......

Couple minor mods, you'll be fine Ron.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I understand. Nothing of consequence exists. You see it as I came to. It's rumors of rumors.
That's not an Ultra, that's a Bosch. Okay, even at that, Transamspirits question: "is anyone else experiencing the fraying of the belt on the engine side only? This fraying runs the length of the belt" says volumes.
His motor froze, the belt locked up. Hell yes it broke. Came off and jammed (He calls it becoming "difficult to pedal" lol), so he applied power.
Sounds like the belt was actually STRONGER than HIS MOTOR and killed the Bosch - before snapping and whippin' him for committing such mindless abuse. First sign of drag, I stop and inspect - not pedal harder.
His motor froze up, belt broke = thus all motors with belts freeze, or all frozen motors break belts?
I also note his plea for commiserating comrades suffering like distress fell flat, but for (Ta da, again) rumors of (ancient) rumors.
-
I'm not aboard with IGH's - for me. I'm just not good enough. My insecurity dictates first have to train w/ the Ultra 2300W and a chain.
No sense in me destroying a $2K IGH - that's my inexperience and awareness. I need more feets-on education first, not the IGH's fault.
-
KXIV is rated for 160Nm MAX. I'm not much for "Gotcha" fine print warrantees, but ...
The most recent iteration Gates is also rated for 160Nm - again, both stronger than that Bosch.
Tensioners must be approved by Gates.
The belt must be installed carefully as kinking will cause damage.
The belt must be aligned precisely, >2mm tolerance.
The belt must be tensioned correctly. 45- 65Hz is common (HD).
https://www.gatescarbondrive.com/resources/handling-and-tension
I'm yet to find documentation of systemic failures, or any failures where proper inspection and adjustment had been verified.
-
Honestly, 'owner belt failure' documentations generally exude cluelessness and dependency on a mechanic - while 10hrs of study (with the free mechanic courses gates offers), practice and $200 in tools can make you a pro - but finding ones time more valuable - I'm retired - a mechanic that's certified on Gates/ your IGH (and the ability to ask knowledgeable questions to verify it) is a wise choice - and tip appropriately, send them a Christmas gift, praise the photos of their ugly kids and décor, whatever it takes.
-
Resolving that, trained-in autonomic skills are paramount. Push WW's machines over 1500watts, it's not '160Nm winding up to be available', it's 'instant 160Nm torque-on' effect.
So, drive responsibly. Hey, I wore a fire suit - even a catheter - for a hobby.
Peeing in (350mi rally leg) snow = disqualified. Plus, lose your time spot if not caught.
Never-mind it's 120F blast of wind, through that desert at 130mph, respiring/ perspiring, boiling 4oz H2O a minute in that suit - for 50mins. Deviate = Disqualified.
Lose the flow, downshift from 5th to 2nd or 4th to 1st - blown tranny.
I remember trying a baja (early Silver State triad) thing.
Modulating brakes/ throttle in a slide 'till I'm in 'that spot' and blast WOT up the hill; then full brake, downshifting 3 gears, and severe tight turn - coming out I'm WOT again, down the hill and on the straight - now, 160+ for 30 seconds, a game of chicken as 20mph Mountain turns loom and I'm 6 seconds behind my time.
The radio call, 'GT2RS gone, ahead at K201. Sand. Stay in center road' ruined me. My last event.
Eye witness accounts confirm he (and wife copilot) were going 170mph, he appeared to look down and drifted ever so slightly to the right.
In a split second the sand caught him, he overreacted, spinning the car and it tripped sideways, flipping over - again and again in an un-survivable ball of flames.
I don't really even want to think of this on Christmas. We had a party all planned at Carlos and Charlies (him stomping that +700hp camaro-bodied monster).
But they died better than most of us will, so I salute the pursuit of excellence, eschewing the mundane.
Screw mediocracy.
-
There's a (big) 'Boy with a Barn' running a +2300w WW Hydra, Gates, K XIV.
He'll not suffer too many more fools - I probably burned him out - but if you really want to know, leave the loaded questions behind and ask.
No Cow Dung in that guys Manger. He knows things and he shares.
Look under Hydra posts.
-
Glad Christmas is over. Tomorrow I can order more stuff.

Fn'F

PS. Delite's Bosch motor is 85Nm - top speed of 20mph, so quite powerful at 57lbs.
WW Hydra +200Nm at 60lbs.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

I am not going back to research it, to find it, but one owner of an ultra said he busted three chains, he admitted it might be to improper technique which speaks to your post.
You seem like might be drinking tonight so I won't go any further than that

No doubt. "Chain Busting" contests aside. I know when I have a problem, guess that person did too and fixed it.
Probably deleted the post.
My take: Same problem over and over - is often the symptom of the cause.
Ask Scrambler about HD chains. He knows.
I thought you were addressing Gates fails? On topic, that assumes all IGH's. Then Chains?
You seem like you might need a snort, so I won't go any further ...

 

[Rider777]

No riding today......

Could we at least have a hint as to where this snow photo is?
Appreciate it

 

[Ebiker33]

No doubt. "Chain Busting" contests aside. I know when I have a problem, guess that person did too and fixed it.
Probably deleted the post.
My take: Same problem over and over - is often the symptom of the cause.
Ask Scrambler about HD chains. He knows.
I thought you were addressing Gates fails? On topic, that assumes all IGH's. Then Chains?
You seem like you might need a snort, so I won't go any further ...

Here is a post from another forum

Hi all,

I'm looking to buy myself an Ebike but I've demo'd 4 and snapped all four chains! (Specialized, Santa Cruz, Whyte and YT)

I spoke to the bike shop who said "We get a lot of reports of chains snapping" and then a friend who rides MTB for a living who also mentioned that he has heard of lots of snapped chains on EBikes. The bike shop also said that they tend to use lower end drivetrains (such as SRAM NX/GX) as they are stronger than the top end (XX1 etc) because of the torque the motor puts through. I've also heard that the shifter is forced to be a single gear-at-a-time shift because of this.

I'm probably not riding them correctly, but I've only ever snapped one other chain (non-Ebike) in 30 years of riding, and I never change gears under load. I am right ocd about making sure my own bikes are well set up though.

None of the chains snapped when changing gear, but when I got on the power to climb a steep hill.

Also conscious I've not seen a single EBike review where they have mentioned a snapped chain.

and another

I'm relatively new to e-MTBing, and I snapped my chain twice during my "trial rides" (BBSHD conversion of my existing 26" fat bike). Adding "e" to your MTB is definitely going to put more stress on your entire driveline, and any "weak links" in your chain or driveline will become apparent very quickly.

 

[Ebiker33]

I'm shopping for Gold Chain for 100 NM.

Yes KMC is making Ebike specific chains now, maybe less breakage with those as they are testing them on Ebikes first.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

We got the "Do Not Grab", Gold Studded collars -Schutzhund grade, 100Nm?


Or more Bing stuff!

And, for the Ultimate 200Nm "Terrier-my-ass" Ballistic Pro model

Happy Holidays Brah !!!

FnF

 

[Deacon Blues]

Could we at least have a hint as to where this snow photo is?
Appreciate it

Coombs, on Vancouver Island, off the coast of British Columbia.
We seldom get snow here, so it was a bit of a surprise.

 

[JRA]

Maybe it is because I have been riding CK rear hubs for years but one of the first things I noticed on my Ultra bike was the amount of lash, or slop before engagement if you will, it had comparatively. If one would hit the throttle, which is jumpy stock on my bike anyway, with a full load on the bike of rider and some slope but not enough load on the cranks to have the motor engaged, which also has some lash, and POP goes the chain easy as that.

Not CK but DT rear hub on the way .....and haven't had chain issues in the 125miles I have on the bike. Shift points are key.

 

[Deacon Blues]

More snow and colder temps (for the west coast).
Took my chocolate Lab for a walk in the woods today.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Maybe it is because I have been riding CK rear hubs for years but one of the first things I noticed on my Ultra bike was the amount of lash, or slop before engagement if you will, it had comparatively. If one would hit the throttle, which is jumpy stock on my bike anyway, with a full load on the bike of rider and some slope but not enough load on the cranks to have the motor engaged, which also has some lash, and POP goes the chain easy as that.

Not CK but DT rear hub on the way .....and haven't had chain issues in the 125miles I have on the bike. Shift points are key.

That's worrisome. Your TS response should be delay tunable via Innotrace. But some delay is certainly required to shift - off the power.
OEM controller settings, pretty sloppy delay to keep people from shifting under power. Do you have the Archon?
Throttle should be set to respond near 'on command' and have enough precision to control it. I'm ordering a Domino to test. But stock throttle setting of 750watts isn't much and will have you going 'full twist' trying to use it alone. I run 900watts now, throttle. No big deal at 90Nm, but I can see applying the TS at the same time increases that a great deal and with 200Nm (open throttle setting 2300watts) on tap, requires judicious application.
KMC chains seem to be all the rage with owners here (Scrambler for one) swearing by them.
Just as you say, they say: Shift points are key.

 

[loamoaf]

We also got a good amount of snow in town here yesterday - usually only happens once in Jan-Feb so no weekend hikes. Pass reports show highest accumulated snowfall & current snowpack in several years which is cool. Highs in the low 20's for the whole week, most of the roads are compacted down and frozen now. Really makes me wish my fat rims & X1 were here so I could go carving it up on the studded fatties! My dog doesn't do as well in the cold - anything below 60°F is too much without some gear unfortunately - tropical dog with little fat and the thinnest veneer of fur.

@Fast n' Furious the guys at fatbike skis make it look super fun though - albeit without the tracks on the rear. Looks even more fun at a ski park - and of course you already know they've done it with a mid motor that's definitely only 750W. I have to be careful watching non ebike videos, I'm on the verge of ordering an ICAN SN04 and building a regular frameset that can fit both of my wheelsets so I'm not married to the motor & battery every time I want to ride, but I really should wait for the new year since work will reimburse me up to a certain amount for 'fitness, health, and recreation' purchases per year. I have such a weak will when it comes to resisting fun though... within reason!

It's funny, the two biggest contributors to me wanting a mid drive & a fat tire bike was seeing people pull up at the tavern on ebikes (crazy steep grades to get out of the valley) and then riding earlier this year in the snow, wipe out after hitting a slush puddle and sliding a good 30 feet downhill in the neighborhood. The hub drive is pretty bullet proof and stupid fast, but less than ideal for me and quite heavy. Feels more like a scooter than a bicycle

 

[Fast n' Furious]

More snow and colder temps (for the west coast).
Took my chocolate Lab for a walk in the woods today.

I love looking at snow.
Nice dog!
Haven't been up that way in 50 years.
September - October of '72, I meandered across Canada - from Montreal to Vancouver.
Montreal was on fire - Canada v USSR Hockey (Summit Series). Downtown, you could hear the City roar with each play.
I don't speak French, but smiled and nodded a lot. They were obviously serious to the point of violence - and the ladies. I thought I'd arrived in Paris, not North America!
Across Canada, I met some of the kindest, down to Earth folks imaginable.
Hope you get riding soon!