My DIY builds: GMAC, BBSHD, 9C RH212, CYC Photon, ToSeven DM01

[theemartymac]

Nope, dont build for others. Im more of an engineer type than a customer service type. Almost started several technical based businesses but customers are so finicky

My favorite movie quote of all time:

 

[penserv]

linklemming said..

Also a big fan of the presets (up to 3). I have one preset that is basically a US legal class 1 ebike (750W, 20mph). The second preset is used as 1000W PAS only (no torque sensor) with no speed limit. I use this preset for playing around with all the PAS options as I want to do another 52V DIY surly ebike build with a CA3, BBSHD and phaserunner. This preset is also fun for really low effort rides (ghost pedaling) where I prefer the PAS assist as opposed to using the throttle. I have the PAS setup to be power assist based (each assist level is a set amount of power). I also am using a cadence based power increasing/decreasing feature which I like. Basically after cadence of 50rpm, you can increase or decrease power based on rpm. I have found settings that I can actually live with although I still prefer torque sensing. The 3rd preset is 30amp limited(1200W just before 42V cutoff) torque sensing and no speed limit and where I ride 95% of the time.

Where do you find presets or do you have to create them? My setup is essentially the same as yours, except I have the 24P PAS sensor. I've got my PAS levels setup in increments of 100 W up to 800 W and running at level 3 or 4 (300 or 400 W), I get about 60 km and then I'm about 1/2 charge or so. I get a bit antsy running below that level because I know what a pig this thing is to pedal with no power. Is there a setting that tells you how much battery you have left? I've got the 52V 20Amp battery and the battery guage seems to be getting pretty low by 48 V, but it could still be 20%. Hard to tell from a guage icon on the CA. I've got about 150 km on my bike now and I'm still fine tuning it, but I love riding it. Nothing to compare to though, except my road bike, since this is my first Ebike, but hills are a lot more fun under power.

 

[mclewis1]

I have a CA controlled bike (just a little less powerful and a 12p PAS) but also with a 52v battery. I've been planning to fully customized the CA displays but so far haven't bothered to. I have customized the power ramp up (or whatever it's called) slightly to keep things very smooth (helpful in the winter) but otherwise it's stock. I was planning on creating presets for limited power levels but so far I haven't felt the need to.

I monitor my battery levels via the displayed voltage levels. After getting used to how fast it depleted the battery I learned to judge distance left from those voltage levels. With a 52v battery I've got between just over 58v (and often just 57v if I've only charged to 90%) and 46v (25% - my arbitrary low level). So half capacity was around 51-52v. For distance I'm getting approximately 7km/v with my 14amp/hr battery. So fully charged I've got 85-90km of capacity and when I see 50v I've got about 30km left (allowing for the inevitable initial sag and slight recovery).

Or more simply I don't start experiencing range anxiety or paying real attention to the voltage levels until they hit the 40s.

 

[penserv]

It would just be nice if there was a single definitive statistic that said how much battery you have left. I have a vested interest in this, as I live at the top of a hill. After having to pedal home once with no power, I'm not eager to repeat the experience. It's not like a cell phone - you can't carry a portable power booster. Actually, I guess that's not completely true, is it? All bikes have a portable power booster sitting on a saddle.....

 

[opimax]

I carry 2 spare batteries on every ride , 1 in each pannier

 

[mclewis1]

It would just be nice if there was a single definitive statistic that said how much battery you have left. I have a vested interest in this, as I live at the top of a hill. After having to pedal home once with no power, I'm not eager to repeat the experience. It's not like a cell phone - you can't carry a portable power booster. Actually, I guess that's not completely true, is it? All bikes have a portable power booster sitting on a saddle.....

There's much that could be discussed about the current CA and the limitations of it's monochrome character based display. Part of the concerns are also based in it's flexibility, since it can display info about and provide controls for just about any battery powered vehicle it's necessarily full of information, so what's displayed is always a compromise.

I find the state of charge indicator difficult to read/interpret at speed on the bike (I think it needs to be bigger with more resolution), and that's why I pay more attention to the actual voltage display (since it's a big simple easy to read number). As the CA learns about your battery (and you are resetting the trip odometer with each battery fill up right?) I guess with a little work it could offer a "how much mileage is left" number but it will always be widely affected by how hard you ride at that point in time. This to me could be a good step before a better graphical based CA ever shows up.

penserv - in your case I'd get an idea of how much mileage you are normally getting per volt (this can vary a bit depending on the state of charge of the battery so the number is very much a rough guess) so you have an idea about remaining distance available, and also do a few test runs on your hill getting home (notice how many volts the hill takes out of your battery). Then figure out what voltage needs to be left when you get to the bottom of the hill and use that number as your "empty" number for your rides.

In my case I've gotten pretty good at my 7 times table

 

[AHicks]

The ONLY way I would build a GMAC is if they updated that display. That move WAY past due....

 

[linklemming]

Where do you find presets or do you have to create them? My setup is essentially the same as yours, except I have the 24P PAS sensor. I've got my PAS levels setup in increments of 100 W up to 800 W and running at level 3 or 4 (300 or 400 W), I get about 60 km and then I'm about 1/2 charge or so. I get a bit antsy running below that level because I know what a pig this thing is to pedal with no power. Is there a setting that tells you how much battery you have left? I've got the 52V 20Amp battery and the battery guage seems to be getting pretty low by 48 V, but it could still be 20%. Hard to tell from a guage icon on the CA. I've got about 150 km on my bike now and I'm still fine tuning it, but I love riding it. Nothing to compare to though, except my road bike, since this is my first Ebike, but hills are a lot more fun under power.

If you are asking how to get to the presets thru the CA menus, I have no idea.

I use the CASetup Utility on my PC to program my CA although I have changed a few things with the CA while on rides.

The presets are VERY obvious when using the CA Setup Utility

 

[linklemming]

It would just be nice if there was a single definitive statistic that said how much battery you have left. I have a vested interest in this, as I live at the top of a hill. After having to pedal home once with no power, I'm not eager to repeat the experience. It's not like a cell phone - you can't carry a portable power booster. Actually, I guess that's not completely true, is it? All bikes have a portable power booster sitting on a saddle.....

There most certainly is and I use it all the time (although the battery icon seems pretty accurate).

Its the WH used per ride. My CA shows this on the one rollling/changing display

 

[linklemming]

An update on the second set of Miranda cranks....they are toast as well.

Noticed they were loose the last ride and they required tightening every few miles.

Just installed a set of Shimano FC-E6000 crankarms, hopefully these will work better

 

[penserv]

An update on the second set of Miranda cranks....they are toast as well.

Noticed they were loose the last ride and they required tightening every few miles.

Just installed a set of Shimano FC-E6000 crankarms, hopefully these will work better

I've been using Shimano Hyperdrive cranks on my build and I've never had a problem with them coming loose. I always have to use a crankset extractor to remove the cranks as they're on the square taper quite solidly. I just did it again yesterday when I changed from a 42T front ring to a 44T.

 

[linklemming]

I've been using Shimano Hyperdrive cranks on my build and I've never had a problem with them coming loose. I always have to use a crankset extractor to remove the cranks as they're on the square taper quite solidly. I just did it again yesterday when I changed from a 42T front ring to a 44T.

I only need the crankarms as the chainring and spider are seperate from the crankarms.

Not sure what the deal is here. I have only had one square taper crankset ever come loose before this and that was over 20 years ago. I have never been all that precise when tightening the crankarms down, just using a longish allen wrench and have never had to retighten.

Hopefully the new shimano FC-E6000 crankarms will fair better. They required a fair bit of tightening after the first ride but not so much after the second.

I have several spare Shimano Hollowtech MTB cranksets I could use if need be but would have to go to PAS only.

I specifically did this build to have a torque sensor, it would be a serious bummer to go to PAS only.

 

[penserv]

I specifically did this build to have a torque sensor, it would be a serious bummer to go to PAS only.

I hear you on the PAS only. I went with PAS because I found an explanation on the internet that said if you just want a certain level of power assist, go with PAS, which suits my riding style. It further said that with a torque sensor, the faster you pedal, the more power assist you get. That may or may not be true, as it appears that you have your torque sensor set up with increasing levels of PA. Over the weekend, I found out the hard way, that I did not have the throttle configured correctly. If I had PAS at 300 W and hit throttle, expecting full power, I was only getting 300 W. So after a couple of falls, from not getting up to speed on a steep slope, I've now got my throttle to provide a lot of power when I need it.

With these DIY's, do you ever come to a place where no more fiddling is involved? Is "Set it and Forget it" a myth?

 

[linklemming]

I hear you on the PAS only. I went with PAS because I found an explanation on the internet that said if you just want a certain level of power assist, go with PAS, which suits my riding style. It further said that with a torque sensor, the faster you pedal, the more power assist you get. That may or may not be true, as it appears that you have your torque sensor set up with increasing levels of PA. Over the weekend, I found out the hard way, that I did not have the throttle configured correctly. If I had PAS at 300 W and hit throttle, expecting full power, I was only getting 300 W. So after a couple of falls, from not getting up to speed on a steep slope, I've now got my throttle to provide a lot of power when I need it.

With these DIY's, do you ever come to a place where no more fiddling is involved? Is "Set it and Forget it" a myth?

I have been playing around with PAS (non-torque based) settings on one of my presets. One of the things I really like about the CA is the ability to not only have a set power level for each power level but to increase/decrease it based on cadence above a set rpm. I currently have this preset setup to have 9 PAS levels (100-1000watts) and to increase power based on cadence. I have it setup such that around 90rpm its matching the next higher assist, i.e. assist 1 goes from 100-200 watts, assist 2 goes from 200-300 etc.

This is better than just a set power level but still feels dead and non responsive. My impression is like I am just adding power to a BIG flywheel like an exercise bike. This effect seems to decouple me from the riding experience somewhat. That being said, on some rides its useful like if Im sore from the day before. I definately notice a lower heartrate and less overall exercise.

I like this bike so much, I have been contemplating another build and just having my ebike stable be 2 DIY bikes and my Bulls eMTB.

Finding another surly frame(Ogre, ECR or bridge club) has been a challenge. I passed on a few due to not liking the colors and then realized I might not be able to find one at all(they sell out quickly) so I have spent the last week searching every inch of the internet. I had given up and started looking at getting a frameset to support a bafang ultra and was ready to lay down the cash for a Wattwagon UC Commuter Pro frameset but they dont have anymore non fatbike frames. I would have ordered a Helios if they were available.

Low and behold I found a black surly bridge club by a stroke of luck and ordered it tonight. Hopefully the shop actually has it.

So the question becomes do I do another MAC 10t motor with torque sensor, phaserunner and CA or a BBSHD with phaserunner and CA. I have tried a BBS02 before and could never warm up to the non torque based PAS experience eventhough I played with many settings. The CA and phaserunner seems alot more versatile.

I have also been considering a CYC stealth torque based mid-drive kit: https://www.cycmotor.com/x1-stealth

Still debating what to do.

It would be interesting to put on a BBSHD and do a back to back comparison with the MAC10t on some local trails and climbs to ptrovide some hub motor vs hub drive data to fan the flames. In the end though I really just want a torque based system.

 

[Johnny]

I have been playing around with PAS (non-torque based) settings on one of my presets. One of the things I really like about the CA is the ability to not only have a set power level for each power level but to increase/decrease it based on cadence above a set rpm. I currently have this preset setup to have 9 PAS levels (100-1000watts) and to increase power based on cadence. I have it setup such that around 90rpm its matching the next higher assist, i.e. assist 1 goes from 100-200 watts, assist 2 goes from 200-300 etc.

This is better than just a set power level but still feels dead and non responsive. My impression is like I am just adding power to a BIG flywheel like an exercise bike. This effect seems to decouple me from the riding experience somewhat. That being said, on some rides its useful like if Im sore from the day before. I definately notice a lower heartrate and less overall exercise.

I like this bike so much, I have been contemplating another build and just having my ebike stable be 2 DIY bikes and my Bulls eMTB.

Finding another surly frame(Ogre, ECR or bridge club) has been a challenge. I passed on a few due to not liking the colors and then realized I might not be able to find one at all(they sell out quickly) so I have spent the last week searching every inch of the internet. I had given up and started looking at getting a frameset to support a bafang ultra and was ready to lay down the cash for a Wattwagon UC Commuter Pro frameset but they dont have anymore non fatbike frames. I would have ordered a Helios if they were available.

Low and behold I found a black surly bridge club by a stroke of luck and ordered it tonight. Hopefully the shop actually has it.

So the question becomes do I do another MAC 10t motor with torque sensor, phaserunner and CA or a BBSHD with phaserunner and CA. I have tried a BBS02 before and could never warm up to the non torque based PAS experience eventhough I played with many settings. The CA and phaserunner seems alot more versatile.

I have also been considering a CYC stealth torque based mid-drive kit: https://www.cycmotor.com/x1-stealth

Still debating what to do.

It would be interesting to put on a BBSHD and do a back to back comparison with the MAC10t on some local trails and climbs to ptrovide some hub motor vs hub drive data to fan the flames. In the end though I really just want a torque based system.

I would be very interested in that CYC kit. It looks like a good design, very powerful, coming with a very good controller, torque sensing bottom bracket etc.

 

[AHicks]

I recently reprogrammed my Ultra with the Frey endorsed "Smooth" settings. To say I'm super impressed with the results is a huge understatement. This is how torque sensing and this big torque monster are supposed to work. There is now a 400w spread for each PAS level, leaving a giant overlap from one to the next. This allows for far fewer PAS level changes when riding in rolling terrain.

Bafang Ultra "Smooth" tune by Mike at Frey

So recently I decided to scrap all of my original ideas, which all seemed to dead end, and try something completely new. I went back to all of the original settings, and when I test drove that, it reminded me how bad those setting really are. No point detailing, if you're reading this you likely...

electricbikereview.com

Point being, this programming is a game changer. I'm totally blown away, and though I love my MAC 12t, THIS software change is causing some real soul searching regarding my next bike (I'm a snowbird, and keep a bike at each end). -Al

 

[linklemming]

I recently reprogrammed my Ultra with the Frey endorsed "Smooth" settings. To say I'm super impressed with the results is a huge understatement. This is how torque sensing and this big torque monster are supposed to work. There is now a 400w spread for each PAS level, leaving a giant overlap from one to the next. This allows for far fewer PAS level changes when riding in rolling terrain.

Bafang Ultra "Smooth" tune by Mike at Frey

So recently I decided to scrap all of my original ideas, which all seemed to dead end, and try something completely new. I went back to all of the original settings, and when I test drove that, it reminded me how bad those setting really are. No point detailing, if you're reading this you likely...

electricbikereview.com

Point being, this programming is a game changer. I'm totally blown away, and though I love my MAC 12t, THIS software change is causing some real soul searching regarding my next bike (I'm a snowbird, and keep a bike at each end). -Al

I appreciate you sharing your Ultra programming experiences. It was a major reason I was trying to get an Ultra bike.

I havent seen any ultra equipped bikes that interest me except for the WW offerings.

The Titanium UC pro frameset would have been perfect for me.
1.) I love bare metal Ti bikes
2.) Battery would be compatible with my current Surly Troll GMAC bike.

Im pretty bummed that WW didnt have any non fat bike frames left. Oh well, A helios is in my future probably next year

I have been trying to decide what to do with this new build

CYC Stealth: $850
Pros: Torque sensing powerful mid-drive
Cons: All proprietary, only 1 source for parts and such. I dont want to be the beta tester.
Unknowns: Noise. This is a huge factor for me

BBSHD with Eggrider Display: $800
Pros: Well understood platform, most parts can be purchased. Versatile Eggrider Display. Quiet
Cons: Eggrider display is awesome but some things can be hard to read. I would like to be able to setup a custom screen with assist level, WH used and speed all in big fonts...still researching
No torque sensing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BBSHD with Phaserunner and CA3: $950
Pros: Can be REALLY fast with FOC, Quiet, better at extended climbing, CA3 flexibility especially with PAS (can increase/decrease power based on cadence), could do comparisons between mid-drive and hub drive
Cons: No torque sensing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GMAC 10T with Phaserunner and CA3: $950
Pros: Quiet and powerful for everything I have done so far. Torque Sensing, Close to perfect, can easily swap things with my current GMAC build
Cons: Not the best for extended super steep terrain (hasnt been a problem yet)

 

[AHicks]

So just so I understand, you would consider an Ultra if you could find a frame? Have you considered buying a production bike, maybe a Rize or M2S (or whatever), to get something close to what you are looking for, then use that for a platform to build on?

 

[linklemming]

So just so I understand, you would consider an Ultra if you could find a frame? Have you considered buying a production bike, maybe a Rize or M2S (or whatever), to get something close to what you are looking for, then use that for a platform to build on?

Yes, I considered all available Ultra Frame options including the Rize and M2S. Basically I researched every bike that had an Ultra Motor. Its hard to go into all the details I consider but I get quite involved and price all the things I want to change. Im also pretty pick about frames and emotions have their say as well.

None really inspired me. Most were way heavier than I would expect (70+lbs) compared to my DIY GMAC bike at 50lbs, had subpar parts, were fat tire bikes, or had batteries that I would question (Im a stickler for getting a high quality battery hopefully with internally fused cells for safety like from Luna or em3ev). I do like the Dorado battery system although its fugly and can have connector issue like on the Juiced CCX(although mine is fine). Im the same way with batteries as you are with the CA display

The only bikes/frames which stood out were:

WW Commuter Pro - not available anymore in non fat bike
WW Hydra - long wait time
WW Helios - available when????
Biktrix Ultra Eagle - doesnt show up on their website anymore, who on earth designed that paint scheme (fugly graphics like all the biktrix bikes)?

Since I have a new surly bridge club arriving on sunday, its going to be my next ebike project for this year.

Next year, WW Hydra or WW Helios

 

[AHicks]

Struggling for inspiration as well. Fat tires are no longer something I would consider now, with that experience behind me. Makes for slim pickings when considering Ultra powered production bikes.

Point taken regarding batteries....
-Al