linklemming
Well-Known Member
Here is the total cost breakdown
My DIY builds: GMAC, BBSHD, 9C RH212, CYC Photon, ToSeven DM01
- Thread starter linklemming
- Start date
linklemming
Well-Known Member
Here are some pics of the ERider73_5b torquesensor with sidemount cable exit, crank spider and crankarms which is a major reason I am doing this build
linklemming
Well-Known Member
Got the frame today. There are lots of diehard Surly Fans and I can see why, the frame is a beauty. I cant imagine a better frame manufacturer for an ebike conversion. I will cover more details later, its been a long day. This frame(troll) while not my first choice, seems like it will exceed my expectations.
Anywho, here is a picture as I mockup and try different things. By no means the final setup
Anywho, here is a picture as I mockup and try different things. By no means the final setup
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Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
Love your build. 
Even though I recently bought a new ebike and I have another new ebike coming in December, but I have a strong urge to do a DIY build. Yours is spot on to what I'd build.
Even though I recently bought a new ebike and I have another new ebike coming in December, but I have a strong urge to do a DIY build. Yours is spot on to what I'd build.
linklemming
Well-Known Member
Still prototyping but here is a pic. Again more details once I get it all finalized. Weighs 50lbs at this point just missing rear brake and the left pedal.
Had some issues with the crankset (the spider that bolted to the bottom bracket). It wouldnt bolt on square so the crankring wobbled quite a bit, I had to slowly enlarge the mounting holes as they were binding when tightening it all down. Spent 2 hours on this. The left crankarm also wouldnt accept the pedal so I had to order a tap/die top open up the threads so no ride till sunday
Also, the rear brakes seems stuck with USPS near chicago. I guessing it was thrown in a ballot harvesting box by accident so I should be seeing it promptly next week. I really like these shimano deore 6100 brakes so I might just order another pair and have them shipped UPS and if I endup with two pair, I will replace the SRAM brakes on another bike.
Initially hooked up the Phaserunner, Cycle Analyst and throttle and tried some throttle power. Warning to others who might try this, the motor starts up but when the speed gets higher, the motor controller makes the motor stop sporadically and dramatically (like someone threw a wrench in the gears). I thought the motor was damaged. If the torque arm wouldnt have been hooked up, the mtor would have likely damage the power cable by spinning in the dropout. This might not be the issue if you order it all as a kit (I ordered many parts seperately).
The Phaserunner needs to be tuned to the motor using pc software (linux, windows or macos) with a serial to USB cable that need to be bought seperately. Make sure to heed all warnings in the phaserunner manual when autotuning(like motor might initially run backwards so pedals might get stuck on something like kickstand). Initially got a few overcurrent errors but it finally started working/tuning and the motor runs fine now. With the battery at storage voltage(53V), the motor spins up to 31.6mph unloaded and I have not even tuned the FOC(higher top speed due to reduced back emf) yet.
I think Im really going to like this ebike
Had some issues with the crankset (the spider that bolted to the bottom bracket). It wouldnt bolt on square so the crankring wobbled quite a bit, I had to slowly enlarge the mounting holes as they were binding when tightening it all down. Spent 2 hours on this. The left crankarm also wouldnt accept the pedal so I had to order a tap/die top open up the threads so no ride till sunday
Also, the rear brakes seems stuck with USPS near chicago. I guessing it was thrown in a ballot harvesting box by accident so I should be seeing it promptly next week.
I really like these shimano deore 6100 brakes so I might just order another pair and have them shipped UPS and if I endup with two pair, I will replace the SRAM brakes on another bike.Initially hooked up the Phaserunner, Cycle Analyst and throttle and tried some throttle power. Warning to others who might try this, the motor starts up but when the speed gets higher, the motor controller makes the motor stop sporadically and dramatically (like someone threw a wrench in the gears). I thought the motor was damaged. If the torque arm wouldnt have been hooked up, the mtor would have likely damage the power cable by spinning in the dropout. This might not be the issue if you order it all as a kit (I ordered many parts seperately).
The Phaserunner needs to be tuned to the motor using pc software (linux, windows or macos) with a serial to USB cable that need to be bought seperately. Make sure to heed all warnings in the phaserunner manual when autotuning(like motor might initially run backwards so pedals might get stuck on something like kickstand). Initially got a few overcurrent errors but it finally started working/tuning and the motor runs fine now. With the battery at storage voltage(53V), the motor spins up to 31.6mph unloaded and I have not even tuned the FOC(higher top speed due to reduced back emf) yet.
I think Im really going to like this ebike
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Comfortably Numb
Well-Known Member
Nice wheels.I think Im really going to like this ebike
I'm looking at a Hilleater Galiano Phaserunner which runs the GMAC hub.
CN
Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
@Comfortably Numb I test rode a Hilleater last year on Saltspring. The 'good' is the bike is fast and it really is a hill-eater. The 'bad' is the build quality of the bike. The electric components from Grin are top-notch, but the rest of the bike felt cheap.
I recommend, if possible, that you test-ride the bike before you buy one.
I recommend, if possible, that you test-ride the bike before you buy one.
linklemming
Well-Known Member
Just another quick update today(no pics).
Played around configuring the phaserunner and CA thru my pc. Its quite refreshing to be able to change so many behaviors and setting. The Cycle Analyst is so well designed although big and bulky
Played around with field weakening settings on the phaserunner software with the following results.
Field Weakening Amps PWR (unloaded) Speed(Unloaded)
------------------------- ------------------ -------------------
0 112 watts 31.6mph
5 120 watts 34.7mph
10 147 watts 39.4mph
Note that these are unloaded speeds, my main reason for setting this up is to increase my downhill coasting speed which for this motor gets limited by back emf just like a DD motor.
Played around configuring the phaserunner and CA thru my pc. Its quite refreshing to be able to change so many behaviors and setting. The Cycle Analyst is so well designed although big and bulky
Played around with field weakening settings on the phaserunner software with the following results.
Field Weakening Amps PWR (unloaded) Speed(Unloaded)
------------------------- ------------------ -------------------
0 112 watts 31.6mph
5 120 watts 34.7mph
10 147 watts 39.4mph
Note that these are unloaded speeds, my main reason for setting this up is to increase my downhill coasting speed which for this motor gets limited by back emf just like a DD motor.
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linklemming
Well-Known Member
Took lots of pics tonight, will post them all tomorrow with build info.
In the meantime, I wanted to discuss why I think surly frames are good for DIY builds.
While I prefer MTBs, most of the surly MTB frames were made for 1x setups and big tires with short chainstays. As such its hard to get a large chainring on the front without spacing the chainring out which could cause chainline issues. There are many workarounds for this...all with limitations (like not using the biggest rear cog).
Im 6ft with a 32inch true inseam. I typically fit a 19" bike perfectly, choosing between an 18inch and 20inch frame is always a crapshoot with me usually going with the 18 for maneuverability.
The flat bar surly bikepacking bikes I was considering for an 27.5x2.6 tire, surly follows the 18inch/20inch frame size:
All surly bikes have welded on inserts for mounts as opposed to rivnuts which a big deal for mounting a battery IMHO.
Bridge Club - a little lower priced frame as it removes several bells/whistles from other frames (dropout style, less reinforcement and likely lighter more flexy tubing). While its touted as a bikepacking bike, I would consider it on the lighter side of that. Vertical dropouts and old style 100mm front hub spacing and 138mm gnot-boost rear spacing(as opposed to 135mm) which is exactly what most hub motors seem to have. Note that its pretty easy to spread or shrink the rear dropouts a few mm. To get a 42t chainring would require the large chainring on a 2x boost spacing. Classic old school mtb geometry. If you wanted a frame for a hub motor with 12mm or 14mm axle with 10mm flats, this would be the best bet IMHO. Can fit a 180mm rear brake rotor. Cant find them in stock anywhere. Surly typically gets the new model year mid-november.
Surly Ogre - Can take a 1x Mtn spaced 42t chainring. I have seen a Bafang BBSHD 42t leekie chainring build using this frame with minimal spacers so its good for that conversion as well. Head angle a little steeper(72 degrees) than I would like but not a deal breaker. Has 145 gnot-boost horizontal dropouts with adapter washers for 10x135 solid axles or 9x135 QR (I will show more details on how this works for my build when I post pics tomorrow). Can fit a 160mm rear rotor. Cant find them in stock anywhere. Using a hub motor with 12mm or 14mm axle with 10mm flat would require a custom piece to work with this frame.
Surly ECR - Appears to be the most robust and heaviest frame(along with the troll) meant for the most extreme bikepacking, I almost bought one of these in a medium but Grin didnt have any rims for the prebuilt wheel option to suit this frame and tire combo (27.5x2.6). In the end, the medium would have been the wrong frame for me(too small). It has the same horizontal dropout design as the Ogre. I could only find a medium in stock, no other sizes available anywhere.
Surly Troll - Pretty much what the ECR is but for 26inch tires for expeditions where 27.5 and 29 tire sizes might not be supported (third world countries). Definately not my first choice. Can support a 1x Mtn spaced 42t chainring just like the Ogre. Same rear dropout design as the Ogre and ECR. I found a frame in Large(20 inch) which isnt typically what I would pick but its PERFECT. It has good standover, reach and enough tire spacing to go to 27.5x2.4 definately and maybe even 27.5x2.6. In the end, I think covid karma made me get this frame and the name matches my avatar
In the meantime, I wanted to discuss why I think surly frames are good for DIY builds.
While I prefer MTBs, most of the surly MTB frames were made for 1x setups and big tires with short chainstays. As such its hard to get a large chainring on the front without spacing the chainring out which could cause chainline issues. There are many workarounds for this...all with limitations (like not using the biggest rear cog).
Im 6ft with a 32inch true inseam. I typically fit a 19" bike perfectly, choosing between an 18inch and 20inch frame is always a crapshoot with me usually going with the 18 for maneuverability.
The flat bar surly bikepacking bikes I was considering for an 27.5x2.6 tire, surly follows the 18inch/20inch frame size:
All surly bikes have welded on inserts for mounts as opposed to rivnuts which a big deal for mounting a battery IMHO.
Bridge Club - a little lower priced frame as it removes several bells/whistles from other frames (dropout style, less reinforcement and likely lighter more flexy tubing). While its touted as a bikepacking bike, I would consider it on the lighter side of that. Vertical dropouts and old style 100mm front hub spacing and 138mm gnot-boost rear spacing(as opposed to 135mm) which is exactly what most hub motors seem to have. Note that its pretty easy to spread or shrink the rear dropouts a few mm. To get a 42t chainring would require the large chainring on a 2x boost spacing. Classic old school mtb geometry. If you wanted a frame for a hub motor with 12mm or 14mm axle with 10mm flats, this would be the best bet IMHO. Can fit a 180mm rear brake rotor. Cant find them in stock anywhere. Surly typically gets the new model year mid-november.
Surly Ogre - Can take a 1x Mtn spaced 42t chainring. I have seen a Bafang BBSHD 42t leekie chainring build using this frame with minimal spacers so its good for that conversion as well. Head angle a little steeper(72 degrees) than I would like but not a deal breaker. Has 145 gnot-boost horizontal dropouts with adapter washers for 10x135 solid axles or 9x135 QR (I will show more details on how this works for my build when I post pics tomorrow). Can fit a 160mm rear rotor. Cant find them in stock anywhere. Using a hub motor with 12mm or 14mm axle with 10mm flat would require a custom piece to work with this frame.
Surly ECR - Appears to be the most robust and heaviest frame(along with the troll) meant for the most extreme bikepacking, I almost bought one of these in a medium but Grin didnt have any rims for the prebuilt wheel option to suit this frame and tire combo (27.5x2.6). In the end, the medium would have been the wrong frame for me(too small). It has the same horizontal dropout design as the Ogre. I could only find a medium in stock, no other sizes available anywhere.
Surly Troll - Pretty much what the ECR is but for 26inch tires for expeditions where 27.5 and 29 tire sizes might not be supported (third world countries). Definately not my first choice. Can support a 1x Mtn spaced 42t chainring just like the Ogre. Same rear dropout design as the Ogre and ECR. I found a frame in Large(20 inch) which isnt typically what I would pick but its PERFECT. It has good standover, reach and enough tire spacing to go to 27.5x2.4 definately and maybe even 27.5x2.6. In the end, I think covid karma made me get this frame and the name matches my avatar
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Comfortably Numb
Well-Known Member
The build quality is my issue too. I need to see one in the flesh.
I have several bikes on my short list but the Hilleater's performance got my attention.
I might have to give up some performance for build quality and go with something else. Bummer, 'cause I like the idea of messing with the output. 107 nm torque would be great.
I understand there is an 'in town' rep floating around now where can see, and demo one, so I'll have a look.
Thanks. CN
linklemming
Well-Known Member
Well, the bad threads on one of the crankarms appears to be due to the pedal having bad threads. Ran a Tap 9/16-20 LeftHand Tap on the left crankarm, no issues. Luckily I bought a tap and a die so I tried the die on the pedal and just could not get the die to cut threads. Not sure what the hardness of pedal spindles are but I have never encountered that before.
Using pedals from another bike for now, will be doing a test ride tonight
Using pedals from another bike for now, will be doing a test ride tonight
linklemming
Well-Known Member
Still need to show alot of detailed build pics but wanted to share a ride report so here is a pic after the ride. Still need to clean up and protect wiring and make the Cycle Analyst sit lower.
No back brake unfortunately, I tried some old avid BB7s in the rear temporarily but the GMAC motor blocks the inner pad adjustment so I couldnt use them . First stop was interesting when your grab the back brake and its not there
So here is the ride report summary: WOW
Seriously, I couldnt be happier with this setup.
Frame: More than stiff enough for the power Im putting thru it. This frame is rated for a 300# rider with 55#gear. I have owned/ridden flexy touring frames and this frame is solid. Maybe too solid.
Tires: Smart Sam 26x2.35. I really like these tires. I dont do alot of pavement riding (just ride pavement to get to more dirt). Better offroad traction than my marathon plus MTB.
GMAC+CA+torquesensor: I am TOTALLY HAPPY with this setup. Not as responsive as my Brose bikes....but really close. While I love the Brose bikes when going really slow and uphill and in technical terrain (eMTB), all of that is less important as you get to higher speeds and gravel rides which I built this bike for. Definately better than my juiced CCX as far as responsiveness. Everything is adjustable thru the CA but I am pretty happy with most of the stock settings. I initially had it setup with up to 4x assist of human power with 4 assist levels. With Just pedaling input, it would top out about 26mph on level ground, With throttle on level ground I got it up to 32mph (1550watts), up to 40mph on a 3% downhill. I think I will go up to 5x human power and 5 levels of assist. Might take off the throttle and leave in my camelback as it just seems like the most boring way to ride an ebike...IMHO. An interesting observation compared to my Juiced CCX. I found that I only like riding the juiced at higher speeds and assist levels. I used it more for my off days or for longer rides due to the battery size. Not so with this setup. Im just as happy slowing it down and enjoying the ride. I suspect its the better torque sensor response as I feel more in tune with the bike.
FWIW, Im running with no ebrake cutouts and love it. This always annoyed me on the CCX. While waiting at a stoplight, the CCX would sometimes jump out from under me if I put pressure on the pedal in just the right way so I always would use the brakes while stopped which would then cause a delay as I wanted to get going again. I can still use the brakes with this setup, just no motor cutout/delay.
No back brake unfortunately, I tried some old avid BB7s in the rear temporarily but the GMAC motor blocks the inner pad adjustment so I couldnt use them . First stop was interesting when your grab the back brake and its not there
So here is the ride report summary: WOW
Seriously, I couldnt be happier with this setup.
Frame: More than stiff enough for the power Im putting thru it. This frame is rated for a 300# rider with 55#gear. I have owned/ridden flexy touring frames and this frame is solid. Maybe too solid.
Tires: Smart Sam 26x2.35. I really like these tires. I dont do alot of pavement riding (just ride pavement to get to more dirt). Better offroad traction than my marathon plus MTB.
GMAC+CA+torquesensor: I am TOTALLY HAPPY with this setup. Not as responsive as my Brose bikes....but really close. While I love the Brose bikes when going really slow and uphill and in technical terrain (eMTB), all of that is less important as you get to higher speeds and gravel rides which I built this bike for. Definately better than my juiced CCX as far as responsiveness. Everything is adjustable thru the CA but I am pretty happy with most of the stock settings. I initially had it setup with up to 4x assist of human power with 4 assist levels. With Just pedaling input, it would top out about 26mph on level ground, With throttle on level ground I got it up to 32mph (1550watts), up to 40mph on a 3% downhill. I think I will go up to 5x human power and 5 levels of assist. Might take off the throttle and leave in my camelback as it just seems like the most boring way to ride an ebike...IMHO. An interesting observation compared to my Juiced CCX. I found that I only like riding the juiced at higher speeds and assist levels. I used it more for my off days or for longer rides due to the battery size. Not so with this setup. Im just as happy slowing it down and enjoying the ride. I suspect its the better torque sensor response as I feel more in tune with the bike.
FWIW, Im running with no ebrake cutouts and love it. This always annoyed me on the CCX. While waiting at a stoplight, the CCX would sometimes jump out from under me if I put pressure on the pedal in just the right way so I always would use the brakes while stopped which would then cause a delay as I wanted to get going again. I can still use the brakes with this setup, just no motor cutout/delay.
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linklemming
Well-Known Member
The build quality was always an issue with the Juiced CCX as well (at least for me). While it was fast and cost effective for the performance, it just felt cheap
JRA
Well-Known Member
"and make the Cycle Analyst sit lower."
I wondered if that wasn't going to bother you....not sure if it would work out but you could flip it 180d and point it to the side of the steerer tube so it sits behind the bar? I made some plates that do that as that aspect bothered me also using the stock mount plus it took up real estate on the bar....
I wondered if that wasn't going to bother you....not sure if it would work out but you could flip it 180d and point it to the side of the steerer tube so it sits behind the bar? I made some plates that do that as that aspect bothered me also using the stock mount plus it took up real estate on the bar....
linklemming
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the pic, I would have never thought of doing that.
Yeah it does bother me being up that high and overall just being so darn big. I had planned on moving an origin8 strongbow bar over to this bike but the cycle analyst will likely keep me from getting on the aero front of the bar.
Waiting on a new 40mm rise handlebar, me thinks with a lower rise stem and this bar, it wont look so bad.
Im using the CA steering bracket from grin, easy enough to bend to get it lower
https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/ca-accessories/ca-steerbracket.html
Rode 30 miles tonight, mostly with 1x assist and 2x assist with some 5x assist at the end. 5x assist is just stupid...fun but stupid
My Juiced CCX is going up for sale very soon
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JRA
Well-Known Member
It looks like you have quite a few spacers and basically that is what the Grin bracket as well as the ones I made are in essence? Don't be afraid to add it to the underside of the stem in other words to get it lower.
I have some fast hub bikes also and it's true that under the right conditions, aka nobody watching, it can stupid fun.
linklemming
Well-Known Member
If I put it under the stem and in front of the stem, I wont be able to see it...which might not be such a bad thing
The grin bracket isnt long enough to allow side mounting from my measurements.
I could put it in under the stem and behind the stem and while it would be readable, I would probably crash trying to read it.
I could put it in a top tube bag (which would hide all the wiring....yeah) and make my own display which would get data from the serial data logging port.
I could also just keep the mainboard and get rid of the LCD board and make my own enclosure with my own display. I can setup the CA with PC so I really dont need the LCD display or buttons.
Im currently researching the top tube bag option. I can design simple PCBs and software is my profession.
...which might not be such a bad thingThe grin bracket isnt long enough to allow side mounting from my measurements.
I could put it in under the stem and behind the stem and while it would be readable, I would probably crash trying to read it.
I could put it in a top tube bag (which would hide all the wiring....yeah) and make my own display which would get data from the serial data logging port.
I could also just keep the mainboard and get rid of the LCD board and make my own enclosure with my own display. I can setup the CA with PC so I really dont need the LCD display or buttons.
Im currently researching the top tube bag option. I can design simple PCBs and software is my profession.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
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The size of that display is probably the biggest reason I haven't done a GMAC conversion yet. I REALLY hope they redesign/update that thing to more modern standards.
You haven't mentioned anything about the regen or how it's working. Is this something you just haven't gotten around to configuring yet? -Al
You haven't mentioned anything about the regen or how it's working. Is this something you just haven't gotten around to configuring yet? -Al
linklemming
Well-Known Member
I dont really think I have a need for regen, I actually would prefer a clutch GMAC.
I dont like the idea of having brake switches. For one I dont like having the motor cutout on brake inputs. Sometimes I prefer to tap the brakes while still pedaling instead of stopping pedaling(like exiting a corner where I was just a little to fast, or maybe a last minute line adjustment during an uphill switchback). Since a brake switch is just that (a switch), a way you could adjust the regen is using the throttle when the switch is activated. I would prefer not to add braking habits that would go outside of what I have always done. I might install a seperate momentary switch at some point and play with regen though. I would consider trying a brake system that had a proportional output so I could vary regen with lever pressure but Im not aware of any product to do this. Someone on endless sphere has done this but I dont like the implementation.
On the display, Im going to try several things. Back when I did the opensource TSDZ2 stuff, I actually put opensource software on a bafang 860C display so there is source code for that. I have also been researching opensource code for the KT-LCD7 and KT-LCD4 LCD displays.
Ordered a top tube bag today, Im going to try putting the CA in the bag and then just having a voltage display
https://www.amazon.com/VGEBY-Voltme...s=ebike+voltage+display&qid=1604548909&sr=8-4
I always use a garmin edge 25, so technically this would be all I need, we will see how this works out.
I also am going to play with this OLED display on my spare time.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12923
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