My 1000w motor journey and fear mongering by users of the forum!

[MrCaspan]

I’m at the other end of the spectrum as the OP as I like lighter ebikes and for the most part ride a bike without a motor. But I find that his original post is well written and states his point of View very well. I don’t know the history but I assume many people flamed him given what he wrote. So given the history I think the post was very mature and respecful.

Thanks, It is hard to write something that is very opinioned and not try to be on my horse looking down at everyone like "I am better then you are". I feel like I make arguments because I can stand behind them and argue them with logic and not emotion. It's hard not to argue from a place of emotion because were human. Every one is so quick to knee jerk their answer without actually thinking about what they are saying or how it sounds. It's MY fault it landed wrong, its MY fault because in too much of a snowflake or have thin skin, its MY fault because I don't agree with them.

My only criticism would be two things. First I agree with Alaskan that if he actually gets into an accident then there could be legal issues. But he wouldn’t be the only one at risk. Likely Bitrix would be at risk if he say rode into someone at speed and significantly injured them. But it sounds like he’s pretty responsible and the likelihood of that happening is pretty low.

So I live in Ontario so other places might be different but I have done research and called police and asked all these questions. I feel quite firm in my stance that just because a bike can go over the speed limit it doe snot automatically make you liable in an accident, its up to the other side to prove I was doing something that broke the law and because of that caused the incident or using the bike in a manor that does not comply with the local highway traffic act. That is almost going to be impossible to prove. Law is about proof not speculation but people always want to put opinion in it and that's no the way the law works. It's about proving beyond a reasonable doubt that what I did or what I had caused the accident. I will die on this hill to be honest but am open for discussion, for me its about just because there is a class 3 sticker on your bike and mine does not have one that it makes me automatically liable just because my bike has the potential to break that class 3 rule. It is my opinion though based on a lot of research into Ontario Law and my local municipality rules and regulations. I advice people to not guess but to actually KNOW what the rules are. And no one should trust my opinion but should do their own research to know because quoting me in an accident will not work LOL.

Second, I think if you need a 1,000 watt motor that unless you’re hauling a lot of cargo and have killer hills that you must not be in very good shape to need that much power. I didn’t see if he had a medical condition, which would obviously change things. But absent a medical condition, then I think the OP must not be very fit and have quite a low VO2 Max, and weak legs.

So after ridding a mid drive 1000w motor for 6 months I can tell you that 1000w is more then I need. Please understand I was coming form a 500w hub motor and had no comparison as to how it would preform different better/worse even with all the forums opinions because some people love pineapple on a pizza some hate it, you have to take it as a lot of opinions and not very many facts. I personally have had 3 collapsed lungs and a stroke at 30 and I do not feel safe pushing myself really hard. It does not mean I wont but its quite scarry and maybe a little PTSD that I could cause something, I'm sure that is not rational but it's how I feel. So I did choose this bike based on that and to be honest I loved my 1000w mid drive other than 2 very important things.

1 the noise is horrible when ridding trails. In the city you can barely hear it on the road and it gets lost in the noise of traffic and the city. But when ridding with friends on mountain bike trails they always laughed that it sounded like an electric can opener was chasing them in the bush. I would agree it was really loud!

2. The weight. My bike was almost 70lbs. Trying to get that thing in to my repair stand for maintenance was an effort. I had to buy a 1UP USA bike carrier for my car just so I could support the weight also. A lot of the weight comes from the battery that you need to power a 1000w motor and a frame that could withstand the high torque that motor could output.

Once I get the insurance money I will be opting for a lighter bike with a smaller 500w mid-drive motor. I don't need the extra power like a lot have commented but Its hard to understand that until you have used it to be honest. I will be giving up the sports car feel and acceleration but I never really needed that anyways it was just fun to blow past my partner on their 500w hub drive when going up hills but to me the weight and noise is not worth that 5% of the time you want this feature.

Thanks for the reply and thank you for being respectful in your comments! Love the discourse !

 

[m@Robertson]

So I live in Ontario so other places might be different but I have done research and called police and asked all these questions. I feel quite firm in my stance that just because a bike can go over the speed limit it doe snot automatically make you liable in an accident, its up to the other side to prove I was doing something that broke the law and because of that caused the incident or using the bike in a manor that does not comply with the local highway traffic act. That is almost going to be impossible to prove. Law is about proof not speculation but people always want to put opinion in it and that's no the way the law works. It's about proving beyond a reasonable doubt that what I did or what I had caused the accident.

I *think* that in the EU (based on others' posts who live there and the fact I don't know any better myself) that an 'illegally' configured ebike is automatically assigned fault.

However as you describe it for Ontario, the identical principles apply in the USA. The principle is called 'materiality' and if the modifications were material to the incident then they are considered. Otherwise they are immaterial and don't exist in terms of finding fault, assessing damages and so on. So pronouncements about how if you are in an accident with a modified/higher-powered ebike you have a problem because of that are mistaken.

I experienced this myself when a bike I was riding a fresh ebike build - with a 3kw motor attached to it - and was struck by an inattentive driver, causing me injury, effectively destroying the bike and of course damaging the auto that ran into me. Not only did the police not cite me, but the driver's insurance company paid for the bike including the new motor and battery, for which I gave them receipts (quite a pile of them as it was a fresh build).

 

[MrCaspan]

This sounds about right and wow a great example to prove the point but sadly a horrible one to have been in! What happened?

 

[Tom@WashDC]

MrCaspan, why don't you get a mid-drive with a UART motor and controller? Then you can program the watts/amps to your heart's content.

I see in many of your posts that you make reference to a 1,000 watt motor, or a 500 watt motor. There really is no such rating system.
Motor Power Ratings: https://ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html

 

[m@Robertson]

What happened?

I had come to a stop in the bike lane while looking behind me to find a traffic gap, so I could cross two lanes of traffic to get in the left hand turn lane. When I decided traffic was too heavy to think about it, and I needed to go a block down to an intersection instead, I started off from that stop to continue down the street. This explains why I was only traveling about 15mph by the time the incident occurred. A driver leaving her apartment complex stopped at the street as is normal before pulling out. She and I made eye contact so I wasn't concerned. then a split second before I passed in front of her she hit the gas and plowed into me. technically it was a t-bone, but fortunately my right leg was at the back of the pedal stroke so it wasn't smashed by the car and remained free. Which allowed me to go flying Superman-style over her hood, thru the air. This is kinda neat on the upward swoop of the arc, but on the way down, with plenty of time to realize how hard you are going to hit, not so much. Actually landed on my head, skidded along and rotated over with my neck as the pivot point (hooray for MIPS as I felt my head rotate as the helmet remained at its stationary angle) and from there flopped down onto my back (wearing a backpack so hyperextended a bunch of stuff on impact) and sorta bounced/flopped around before coming to a stop. Broke nothing. Sprained everything. My wrists have never really been the same. Life goes on. Lots of physical therapy for a few months afterwards.

My eyeglasses had one lens scraped severely, and this was my face skidding across pavement for a split second, with only that eyeglass lens baaaarely touching pavement touching thanks to the chin guard of my downhill helmet. If I had been wearing a head-only bike helmet it would have ground down my eye socket ... at least. Helmet was smashed but my head only had a red mark where a shard of helmet dug into me a little. In fact my head was about the only thing undamaged on me thanks to it self-destructing to keep my head intact. Bell Super3R. Went right out and bought another one just like it.

 

[Johnny]

You are overthinking. As stated above you can program and limit the power output of the motor to stay legal and still enjoy your bike. It is 750W in the States which is a very good amount.

While I myself don't need that kind of power I understand that people may have different needs. For example living next to long, very steep hills and having to deal with these hills everyday can be a legit reason. And before someone repeats the cliché "oh 250 W is enough" well as long as your bike has small enough chainring and large enough cog then you don't need any assistance at all so... Sometimes you may want to climb those hills 14-15mph instead of 4-5mph.

And be safe when riding. An accident around 14mph is enough to get seriously injured...

 

[MrCaspan]

I had come to a stop in the bike lane while looking behind me to find a traffic gap, so I could cross two lanes of traffic to get in the left hand turn lane. When I decided traffic was too heavy to think about it, and I needed to go a block down to an intersection instead, I started off from that stop to continue down the street. This explains why I was only traveling about 15mph by the time the incident occurred. A driver leaving her apartment complex stopped at the street as is normal before pulling out. She and I made eye contact so I wasn't concerned. then a split second before I passed in front of her she hit the gas and plowed into me. technically it was a t-bone, but fortunately my right leg was at the back of the pedal stroke so it wasn't smashed by the car and remained free. Which allowed me to go flying Superman-style over her hood, thru the air. This is kinda neat on the upward swoop of the arc, but on the way down, with plenty of time to realize how hard you are going to hit, not so much. Actually landed on my head, skidded along and rotated over with my neck as the pivot point (hooray for MIPS as I felt my head rotate as the helmet remained at its stationary angle) and from there flopped down onto my back (wearing a backpack so hyperextended a bunch of stuff on impact) and sorta bounced/flopped around before coming to a stop. Broke nothing. Sprained everything. My wrists have never really been the same. Life goes on. Lots of physical therapy for a few months afterwards.

My eyeglasses had one lens scraped severely, and this was my face skidding across pavement for a split second, with only that eyeglass lens baaaarely touching pavement touching thanks to the chin guard of my downhill helmet. If I had been wearing a head-only bike helmet it would have ground down my eye socket ... at least. Helmet was smashed but my head only had a red mark where a shard of helmet dug into me a little. In fact my head was about the only thing undamaged on me thanks to it self-destructing to keep my head intact. Bell Super3R. Went right out and bought another one just like it.

Wow that's a crazy story. Making eye contact can help but this lady probably though you were telling them they can go. They looked the other way then hit the gas and you were in front.. That must have hurt!

Thanks for sharing!

 

[m@Robertson]

Wow that's a crazy story. Making eye contact can help but this lady probably though you were telling them they can go. They looked the other way then hit the gas and you were in front.. That must have hurt!

Thanks for sharing!

No she actually looked through me, not at me. There's no way you can tell the difference. Its a very common phenomenon, albeit mostly experienced by motorcyclists. Its definitely a danger cyclists should understand though. I do the 'smidsy weave' sometimes to protect against it. This video gives an excellent illustration of the perspective issue that is part of the danger, as well as the best solution for the cyclist. You can do some googling on SMIDSY for more.

 

[linklemming]

No she actually looked through me, not at me. There's no way you can tell the difference. Its a very common phenomenon, albeit mostly experienced by motorcyclists.

As a long time motorcyclist, I have had many similar instances. I have learned to always look for eye contact although thats not always a sure thing. I had a serious motorcycle accident (broken clavicle and femur, in a wheelchair for several months) where I recall the driver looking at me before pulling out in front of me. For some reason, it just doesnt register for some people in some circumstances. People see what they want/expect. An old piece of advice from my dad was to watch the front wheel of a car, its where they are going.

As far as an ebike, I had an incident where I was coming down a slight downhill. A lady with her dog looked right at me and made eye contact(or so I thought) and moved off the path next to a trash can. The moment I was about to pass, she stepped right in front of my path. No idea what she perceived

Dont assume anything

 

[MrCaspan]

I always point to this when people talk about people looking right through people. Here are the reasons why

 

[MrCaspan]

Also I just watched that video and learned a new word called looming and it reminded me of this Monty Python clip

 

[AHicks]

Another long time (life time, now retired!) motorcycle rider here. I took an MCSC course a LOOOONG time ago (with an absolutely awesome instructor!), and one of the best lessons I've used most often from him personally, was more of a concept we discussed/were shown. You pretend YOU are invisible! It's that simple! It's not that hard to teach yourself. No blame anywhere else for anything that happens to you. It's ALL in your lap. This way, while pretending he can't see you, there are never assumptions made about what that jack ass is about to do.... because you are watching him!

Saved my bacon on quite a few occasions......

 

[MrCaspan]

@AHicks That is a really great point!, and that is what the video I just posted is all about and it took me a bit to understand the title of it. Why would you want to train to be invisible? Would you not want to train to be visible? Well if you do all these great things to make you visible you are only convincing yourself that you ARE visible. You will ride with more confidence and are more likely to be in an accident because you assume you are visible.. It's better to plan for the worst hope for the best, train your brain that you are invisible because that is the only thing you can control and once you do that then you can rightly assume everyone else cannot see you and worse case you are wrong and they CAN see you... well its a win win. It takes training to understand and grasp that concept!

 

[AHicks]

@AHicks Great point!, and that is what the video I just posted is all about, invisibility training! It is about just what you said, assume you are invisible and it takes training to understand and grasp that concept!

Sorry, I just watched the first few minutes of the first vid, which looked more like an explanation regarding why others don't see you/cyclists. Fine for those looking at that idea, but not so useful for for my thought - which just assumes he doesn't see you, with no care about why.......

 

[Tom@WashDC]

Excellent point Al.
I always try to be very visible, intense red strobe on the back of my helmet, red strobe on the back of my bike, two intense white strobes on the front of my bike.
But, I assume I am invisible!

 

[AHicks]

Excellent point Al.
I always try to be very visible, intense red strobe on the back of my helmet, red strobe on the back of my bike, two intense white strobes on the front of my bike.
But, I assume I am invisible!

That's my thought Tom. Do what you can to be visible, just don't assume you are!

 

[tomjasz]

Another long time (life time, now retired!) motorcycle rider here. I took an MCSC course a LOOOONG time ago (with an absolutely awesome instructor!), and one of the best lessons I've used most often from him personally, was more of a concept we discussed/were shown. You pretend YOU are invisible! It's that simple! It's not that hard to teach yourself. No blame anywhere else for anything that happens to you. It's ALL in your lap. This way, while pretending he can't see you, there are never assumptions made about what that jack ass is about to do.... because you are watching him!

Saved my bacon on quite a few occasions......

It's a shame eBikers don't learn the concepts taught in MSF Motorcycle Safety Foundation classrooms and field days. If more riders actually did the braking and avoidance drills they'd soon find out how inadequate those budget eBike brakes are. Learn how and ride longer. I tested every bike on an MSF course and sold every BBSHD rather than spend more $$ to completely upgrade all frames and brake systems. I'll never be more than class 2 again. Off-topic MN adopted that stupid ysytem without any public input THAT really rankles me. A stupid system was forced on me.

 

[AHicks]

I don't want to drag out the safety course thing, but would just like to mention they are an absolute blast for anyone taking one. Extremely well run, generally awesome instructors, new challenges, and ideas that will last you the rest of your life. NOT to be thought of as something that you must endure.... -Al

 

[Rexlion]

Another thing to remember: everyone has a blind spot in his or her visual field, usually somewhere near the periphery. It's due to the spot in the back of the eye were the optic nerve exits the eyeball; that spot can't produce an image. But our brains won't let us notice this defect under normal circumstances. The blind spot is usually pretty small, but it can vary in size (especially if eye pressure has gotten too high and caused damage). All drivers should not only look twice each way, they also should look upward or downward a bit when looking. A bike can quite easily disappear in those blind spots, and for some folks a whole car will be unseen (I am one of the latter, due to high intraocular pressure that is now managed with drops).