Moving Away From Heavy E-Bikes

[Stefan Mikes]

To @Chibbie:

The other motivation was the much lighter weight of the Dutch. While the Cafe is relatively light, especially for a bike with a pretty powerful motor (53 lbs *with* the battery installed), and I can lift it if need be, getting it up and down the stairs of my house is sometimes enough of a pain in the butt that it’s a deterrent. On those days, I can sling the Dutch up and down the stairs with no problem. On days when I’m tired, achy, only have a few minutes to ride, etc., and I think: “Is it really worth it for me to have to haul this thing up and down the stairs?,” - especially the *up* the stairs part after a long, intense, and/or sweaty ride - the answer with the Cafe is sometimes yes, sometimes no. With the Dutch, the answer is never in question, because it truly takes me no real effort to lift it.

That's the whole point! I still own a "classical e-bike" of a similar weight as your Cafe. I had to keep it in my apartment and carry it down/upstairs for my daily rides. When I got my Vado SL, my life has improved since. (I lent that heavy e-bike to a friend).

But if I could only afford to have one, or only had space for one, I’m actually not sure which I’d keep: the heavier but much more powerful one, or the lighter but much less powerful one. The Cafe, once out the door and on the road, is far more versatile in the sense that its more powerful motor means I can ride it anywhere no matter how much (or how little) pedaling effort I feel like putting in on a given day. But the Dutch is more versatile in the sense that I can ride it every day simply because its extremely light weight makes it so much manageable for daily life. (And that’s not even counting the difference in the ease of transporting it on a bike rack or whatever: I haven’t had to do that yet. While I’m capable of lifting the Cafe onto a bike rack, I’m sure it’ll be a pain when I do.). Honestly, while the lighter bike has a great deal of appeal, if I truly only could keep one, it would probably be the Cafe. Its weight is manageable, particularly with the battery removed; and I could move my car out of the garage and park the Cafe there so that I wouldn’t have to carry up and down the stairs. (And I’d just deal with the moderate aches and pains: it’s nothing debilitating, just annoying.) If I didn’t have this option, though (or if the aches and pains were debilitating) and had to decide between power vs weight, it would be a very hard call.

My thoughts exactly! Only I can use my lightweight Vado SL on more demanding rides, too. It handles so well in the rough terrain! The only downside of that e-bike is its low power. It achieves the same at 80% assistance what the heavy e-bike can do at just 35%! Good I do not live in the mountains...

 

[PDoz]

How did the motors die Pdoz? I ask because I'm on my second motor on my Vado SL. The first was still working but had got louder and bike shop replaced under warrenty. I've got a tiny clicking noise on this new motor or at least from drive train area so this weekend going to give a good clean and tighten everything to see if that sorts it. How did your second, quiet motor die?

The first motor presumable had the bearings go on the spindle, drive side - it developed excessive sideways play and got really noisy really quickly. A few weeks before the 2 year warranty mark, so I was happy to start my warranty again!

The second motor was mechanical error - I'd ordered new cranks because I figured all that sideways flogging around of the spindle must have done some damage to the crank / spindle interface. ( it's a mountain bike, so landing sideways etc) .The cranks hadn't arrived when the motor was replaced so I accepted the old cranks whilst waiting. One ride later those cranks were loose! Unfortunately the spline is softer than the cranks so that motor was stuffed - replaced under warranty. NOT happy, it was around the time rumours started about a more powerfull sl motor and I swear this was a pre production unit - super quiet and it felt more powerfull. If that's what we can expect with the next gen I'll happily pay for one!


ps re your click - pull the cranks off, clean them then put them back on with anti sieze. The slightest bit of play ( or dirt) between crank and spline can destroy the spline within a couple of rides

 

[RabH]

50 miles is as far as I've gone on my vado SL but that is my fitness level & without a range extender. That included around 4500ft of climbing. Most spins are 20 to 30 miles and around 3000ft of (very steep) hills. I now have an extender and once the damn weather gets better am to get the fitness back up to those levels & further. The lightweight e bikes are fine for that as long as you don't expect miracles and have motor off on flat & tailwind. With extender I'm aiming for at least 70 miles and if I can plot a non hilly route, then 100 might be doable. Worth aiming for.

And also Rab can I just say you're a huge inspiration. Good on you for all those epic rides, in all weathers and in.... Scotland! Giant should bloody well sponsor you. And I remember when you got your motor reconditioned you were still putting in the big miles on your ordinary bike! Amazing. Last summer after a good winter of e bike rides on the vado Sl I did a few 20 and 30 mile rides on my drop bar steel framed bike and it was lovely. But the fitness has to be at that level because the hills are so vicious its really not fun if not fit enough. Whereas I can hop on the e bike any day. That's the main benefit I think.

That can't be true, Stefan said I'm not capable of long distance miles on a lightweight e bike... It sounds like you have the same terrain as me, good luck on getting that imperial century done! As you say you just need the right conditions and I'm sure you will get it doneThank you for your kind words

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Stefan said I'm not capable of long distance miles on a lightweight e bike...

Haha! I'm so sorry!

 

[RabH]

Haha! I'm so sorry!

Apology accepted

 

[Saratoga Dave]

Sneaking briefly back to the original subject here, all my riding since early December - what there‘s been of it in a cold and intermittently very snowy winter - has been on my 45 pound Giant gravel bike, while my Creo sat in comfort in the basement at my son’s house.

Today I busted the Creo out for the year now that the snow is mostly gone and did a quick twenty miles on it in 36 degrees and a pretty decent wind… boy, what a blast it is to get back on that thing! Even with the 42mm Pathfinder Sports on it, the bike just flies compared to what I’ve been doing. Just a remarkable piece of equipment. Nice and easy to get back on the bike rack at the end also, always a plus.

 

[PedalUma]

Got pics of the bike

Here is one of that Specialized. It can have a larger battery or second battery. They swap in seconds. I use the smallest battery that works for any given ride. As mentioned for my style of riding I need fenders and a rack. Even if they add some weight, they make a bike much more useful and not just a toy. The HB rises before it drops and flares. So, I don't need to stoop but still can tuck. Those Schwalbe tires roll fast.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Here is one of that Specialized.

Specialized Bicycle Components should learn from you how to make e-bikes.
Not.

The water-bottle-battery here is only optional.

 

[PedalUma]

Specialized Bicycle Components should learn from you how to make e-bikes.
Not.


View attachment 150044
The water-bottle-battery here is only optional.

Yes it is a $600 range extender.
It does not matter what I say. I have 46 reviews on Google Maps and they are all 5-Stars. There is nothing 'wrong' with your bike, it is just not my cup of tea.
Molly Mattson Stephan
3 reviews

5 months ago

My cycling crazed husband had never ridden an ebike before. He came across PedalUma eBikes and Rick online. He rented one for the weekend while our kid was at a sporting event. He LOVED it—an excellent experience he’d certainly do again. Next trip, it’s my turn.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

The first motor presumable had the bearings go on the spindle, drive side - it developed excessive sideways play and got really noisy really quickly. A few weeks before the 2 year warranty mark, so I was happy to start my warranty again!

The second motor was mechanical error - I'd ordered new cranks because I figured all that sideways flogging around of the spindle must have done some damage to the crank / spindle interface. ( it's a mountain bike, so landing sideways etc) .The cranks hadn't arrived when the motor was replaced so I accepted the old cranks whilst waiting. One ride later those cranks were loose! Unfortunately the spline is softer than the cranks so that motor was stuffed - replaced under warranty. NOT happy, it was around the time rumours started about a more powerfull sl motor and I swear this was a pre production unit - super quiet and it felt more powerfull. If that's what we can expect with the next gen I'll happily pay for one!


ps re your click - pull the cranks off, clean them then put them back on with anti sieze. The slightest bit of play ( or dirt) between crank and spline can destroy the spline within a couple of rides

Thanks, good suggestion. I’ll try that & I’m checking the frame & motor bolts, chain ring bolts and anything else I can think of. Already changed the pedals. Trying to rule everything out before I have to return to bike shop as it’s now out of warranty. Due to work commitments over winter I’ve only put a few hundred miles on it since they fitted a new motor under warranty back in Oct. So it could be a loose bolt from that. I’ll see.

 

[Dorkyman]

We are new to eBikes and bought two of the Lectric XP 2.0 st bikes 16 months ago. Love them. They are very well-built, lots of features, and were amazingly cheap ($1K!).

What they are not is lightweight, tipping the scales at about 70lbs.

If I was living in an apartment in the city and used mass transit, I would be looking for a Brompton, either with the factory motor or with an aftermarket kit. And with torque sensing, not PAS. I love good engineering and the Bromptons are amazingly compact and lightweight. Not cheap but about half the weight of our Lectrics.

 

[Rich W.]

Many posts while I was asleep, several of them requires a longer answer
To @Rich W.

Yes, provoking a little bit (If there was any offender in this thread, I am fortunately unaware of it as I weeded out any trolls long time ago)

Between you and me: there is no greater joy to mount my Vado after a week of riding the Vado SL! Kilometres fade away quickly, the scenery is changing so fast, a headwind is of no issue! Only I feel the heavy mass of the e-bike under me, and the pedalling is so easy I often consider decreasing the assistance (using my own version of MicroTune). Vado is not Tero and it really feels shaky in more rough terrain, compared to Vado SL.

The heavy weight of Vado is especially depressing on my railway commutes to the group rides. In some railway stations here, you can find a lift so small you need to put the e-bike upright to fit in. Or, the lift is good for a wheelchair but would not fit any bike. Or, there is no lift or ramp only staircase. (Recently, @Marquezdl has described his problems with a Vado and an elevator under another thread).

I just want to mention Mr. @e-levity who deeply customized a Vado SL of Ms. e-levity to the level (the e-bike named Gravel Queen) they could make an exciting trip around the Death Valley CA.
Gravel Queen
Vado SL in Death Valley


I think you should use your Tero to the max and enjoy it as much as you can. Buying a Vado SL was my aware decision: I needed an e-bike I could keep in my apartment and easily carry it upstairs.
big hills

Only please be careful with overloading your Tero. It's total weight limit is only 300 lbs! I was riding my Vado very close to that limit (rider + cargo + e-bike), and I have to build a new expensive rear wheel after 3+ years of riding the heavy e-bike.


Hey, only 35 miles with the 710 Wh battery? Don't you use excessive assistance maybe?

Now I think of people who buy a dual battery e-bikes (such as Riese & Muller Superdelite) and the e-bike weight starts at 31.5 kg (roughly 70 pounds)...

I do enjoy the bike immensely, on a desert trip now riding every day. 227’ below sea level yesterday on the shores of the Salton Sea, out on a military reserve today (found some interesting stuff). Out here I can get 45-50 miles out of the bike on more or less flat terrain. At home I could probably go 40 miles, but I have some long hills to climb to get home and don’t really enjoy riding this tank of a bike unassisted, so I plan to stay above 10%.

I ride in OFF down hills, ECO on the flats, and TRAIL on hills unless I need TURBO - usually just when topping a long steep climb. Just a lot of long hills in my riding area, and that eats up the battery fast. Also Im 6’5” and weigh 240 dressed and the bike is 60, so Id have to ride naked to be under 300lbs and I have to at least wear shoes. Probably has something to do with my power consumption. Tero should have a ride extender battery option. Once its out of warranty I’ll figure it out and build one. I’m new to ebikes, but quite functional with Li-ion stuff.

 

[PedalUma]

so Id have to ride naked

Do you have a photo? If someone says their doggie is the best dog in the whole world. That's fine. It is really that they love their dog and it is best for them. The same with bikes. The best bike for a single mom may not be the best bike for a retired cyclist. Companies such as Specialized don't do things like make a bike for a college professor who has no thumbs, I do. It is not better or worse, only different.

 

[Art Deco]

I could probably use a lightweight e bike but the expense prevents me from doing so, the prices are just ridiculous! My current bike serves all my purposes, its not a heavyweight by any means so it is just perfect for me and my needs! I can easily turn it upside down to fix punctures which is a big plus! I have a Giant hybrid which is collecting dust in my attic, its there if I have a problem with my e bike and I'm still capable of riding it around 50 miles or so but with the climbs and winds around here it would only get used sparingly...the e bike is just too much fun and still keeps me very fit!

You don't need/want a lighter bike @RabH ; In fact I think you need to strap about a 50 lb handicap on that thing.

 

[Art Deco]

We are new to eBikes and bought two of the Lectric XP 2.0 st bikes 16 months ago. Love them. They are very well-built, lots of features, and were amazingly cheap ($1K!).

What they are not is lightweight, tipping the scales at about 70lbs.

If I was living in an apartment in the city and used mass transit, I would be looking for a Brompton, either with the factory motor or with an aftermarket kit. And with torque sensing, not PAS. I love good engineering and the Bromptons are amazingly compact and lightweight. Not cheap but about half the weight of our Lectrics.

Another option ( even more money?) Is a Montague. Full sized wheels, 55 lb folder, with a Shimano mid drive.

 

[ruffruff]

Speaking of light e-bikes, does anyone have any experience with this company? https://www.pedaleasy.ca/ I have been considering their bikes, when it comes time to upgrade.

I'm guessing they are fibbing on their weight. Their weight probably doesn't include the battery.

Stefan, another thing about light weight bikes is how they handle. A lightweight bike is more nimble and responsive.
Maybe not so important on the road or tar trails but off road and single track, there is nothing better than throwing the bike around.

My first fat tire was a tank, about 70lbs and it handled like a tank. Tons of self steering, you had to force it off center to lean it into a turn and then it was hell to get it back up! It was my first fat tire and I didn't know any better, I just thought that's how they ride.

Now I'm on a bike about half the weight and it was jaw dropping from the first time I climbed on.

 

[mschwett]

One of the beautiful things about the bicycle is that it can be so many different things to different people! My personal opinion, as an urban dweller in a place where a lot of people ride bicycles for actual utility (toting themselves, kids, and cargo) as well as pleasure (roadies galore, the birthplace of the modern MTB, etc) is that the trend towards heavy, large, fast, powerful e-bikes has gone too far. At the upper end, they really aren’t bikes, they’re mopeds, and they should be categorized alongside powerful scooters and locally regulated as such. I wouldn’t make them illegal by any means, but I believe any sane jurisdiction with more than a few cyclists would disallow them on MUPs and bike lanes.

I initially believed that as a person with a chronic health issue (heart), living on a steep hill, with two kids and not much spare time, that I’d need a big powerful bike to get around. This turns out to be pretty much completely untrue. There is nowhere I can’t go by myself with my Creo (300w maximum, 28lb), and virtually nowhere I can’t take my 5 year old on my vanMoof (500w maximum, 42lb). The experience of riding the two is totally different, 11 gears versus 4, derailleur vs automatic IGH, carbon vs aluminum, mid-drive vs front hub, clipless pedals vs platforms, etc etc, but they’re both bicycles, they both blend seamlessly with all the bicycles around me, and I’ve put maybe 10,000 miles on them combined in two years.

I do seriously wonder how many people with big, heavy, powerful e-bikes have recently ridden a lighter one - or even a non-e-bike. I love e-bikes and am all for getting every last person possible out of their SUVs, but the speed difference (even for someone middle aged with a heart condition) between my lightweight acoustic road bike and either of my e-bikes over normal rides really isn’t that great. The magic of gearing is a great equalizer. I’d like to see an even lighter still type of bike, something like a carbon or titanium gravel bike with a removable 200 wH battery and a 300w rear hub or mid-drive motor. It ought to be around 20lb without the battery, maybe 24 with, easy to carry up and down steps and into elevators, up hills with or without the motor, and with moderate assist the range would be perfectly fine for many trips. Legally such a thing should be allowed absolutely everywhere a regular bike is.

 

[Art Deco]

Absolutely. 25 to 30 lbs is a challenge, but so was 40 lbs not long ago.

 

[PedalUma]

When a large Viking at your command is rowing your boat, does it matter if his shoulders are thick? When he is pulling more than his own weight?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Also Im 6’5” and weigh 240 dressed and the bike is 60, so Id have to ride naked to be under 300lbs and I have to at least wear shoes.

I would not worry about it were I you. Have you noticed your Tero has strong, 32-spoke wheels? I think the actual Total System Weight allowed of your Tero is around 330 lbs

Once its out of warranty I’ll figure it out and build one. I’m new to ebikes, but quite functional with Li-ion stuff.

Why should you jeopardize yourself and your home? Add a rack if you already do not have one, a pannier and a spare battery.

Stefan, another thing about light weight bikes is how they handle. A lightweight bike is more nimble and responsive.
Maybe not so important on the road or tar trails but off road and single track, there is nothing better than throwing the bike around.

I tried to convey the same thought in the original post. Our cycling club mostly rides in forests. My mates ride lightweight gravel bikes; how fast they zoom there! I'm trying to keep up at their speed, and my Vado SL with Redshift suspension just flows there! While my heavy Vado jumps and shakes in the rough terrain to the level I'm scared! Only Vado SL has not got enough powerful motor too keep up. Had it 55 Nm instead of 35... I'm missing the 110% assistance there!

Legally such a thing should be allowed absolutely everywhere a regular bike is.

I need to mention that any 250 W nominal, 25 km/h e-bike is a regular bike in the European Union despite of its weight. I am not sure if you wanted to ride your Creo with such an assisted speed restriction? (Oh yes, you could)

Companies such as Specialized don't do things like make a bike for a college professor who has no thumbs, I do. It is not better or worse, only different.

The moment you wrote you had stripped a bike off hydraulic disk brakes and installed V-brakes instead you lost my respect. You work as if you were buying acoustic guitars and slapped electric pickups onto the instrument. It does not make it an electric guitar, and famous guitar companies make far better electro-acoustic guitars than you could ever do. (An analogy). It does not matter how many stars you get on Google. You are not making bicycles or e-bikes.

Regarding the thumbs...
I have a Strava friend who rides a Levo in our impressive Bieszczady Mts (part of Carpathians). He usually rides long distance with huge elevation gain. His Strava display name (translated to English) is itridesitselfebike How ironic is that! Because people like you Uma want people e-bikes riding themselves and just carrying the rider's ass. It is not cycling.