mid drives are not for everyone/throttles are fine

[fooferdoggie]

I checked shifting when I was putting out 200 watts and the motor off and its ok in the smaller cogs but the larger ones it can get clunky I guess from the bigger spacing. but it is shut smoother letting off the pressure. saves wear and tear too. now with the motor on and 200 watts it clunks a fair amount more.

 

[KimV]

I commute on my e-bike. i want a throttle for this reason.

on 2 different occasions I have had an issue that would have left me and a mid-drive with no throttle stuck.

first was a broken chain. 8 miles from home, wife wasn't available, if not for the throttle I would have had to either walk or wait 4 hours for my wife to come and get me AFTER she got home, loaded the bike rack onto the SUV and came to find me. Instead I throttled the remaining distance to get home, blew my workout for the day, but I got home.

the second time was an accident 3 weeks ago where-in I mashed the crankarms and couldn't turn the crank. I was 4 miles from work, finished the ride via throttle and had my wife pick me up after work.

----

I don't mind a throttle-less mid drive for leisure and weekend riding, but for my 50 mile a day commute, no way.. I want a backup plan. I have no desire to be stuck somewhere without help or a way to get home.

Hi,
I really appreciate this comment because I was looking for something that would explain this to me. I am in the middle of deciding between mid drive and hub drive….This will be my first electric bike. My question to you is about a reverse situation…In other words instead of the broken chain scenario what if the motor fails and the throttle is not available…Will the hub drive (vs mid drive) be a better option for peddling home? Lastly, it is clear that If you plan to tackle steep hills a mid-drive is the better option but I’m finding hub drives that seem to have a good amount of power…The one I am looking at now is Bafang 750 watt, 80 N.m. Given my lighter weight at 135lbs, and hilly terrain not necessarily mountainous, I’m thinking I’m going to be fine with that hub drive, which also offers torque sensing, and gives me peace of mind around getting home in the face of a malfunction.
I’d appreciate any feedback that any of you can offer.
kv

 

[JES2020]

Not sure what the cause for angst is, but Rule #1 when shifting a mid drive: let off on the 'pressure' (as in disengage the motor that wants to eat things). This is what gear sensors do: disengage the motor for a split second after detecting shift cable movement. I do it a different way, and there are others besides, but almost all methods are different paths to the same destination: Disengage the motor so the drivetrain is spinning gently.

I have gear sensors but I do a stutter-step because thats what became natural to me before I installed the first one. No pedaling whatsoever during the shift and it works great. Stop pedaling. Click. Start pedaling. Shift completes in about 1/5 of a chainring turn, before the motor can put power into the drivetrain. Takes about 1/2 of a second when have it down.

And of course a throttle blip will shift without any pedals being involved. If you know how to and have your motor and throttle set up so it slow-starts and throttle has a long throw this is a viable option.

He was saying ALL bikes. I have a hub motor , it is not necessary to come off the power or pressure when shifting, on a hub motor. Therefore NOT necessary on All bikes.

 

[JRA]

People like to make out that hub drives won't climb hills and that is not my experience. My direct drive hubs, which are considered to be the lesser at doing so over geared drive hubs, do fine on long steep grades. That is as long as I don't ask too much of them and am willing to pedal alongside the assist levels.

Not enough pedaling to cause a stroke mind you and not going ripping up hill @ high speeds but getting up there twice as fast as I would on a pedal only bike for sure. The simplicity of a hub drive and the option as mentioned to get home with a broken chain, which you are SOL with on a mid drive unless you have chain tools is a good feature but not the only reason to choose one over the other.

Both systems will not pedal as well as a non assisted bike mainly due to the extra weight of the entire bicycle. There is a certain amount of drag associated with both motor types but still doable although you might have to push some of the hills to get home.

 

[6zfshdb]

Hi,
I really appreciate this comment because I was looking for something that would explain this to me. I am in the middle of deciding between mid drive and hub drive….This will be my first electric bike. My question to you is about a reverse situation…In other words instead of the broken chain scenario what if the motor fails and the throttle is not available…Will the hub drive (vs mid drive) be a better option for peddling home? Lastly, it is clear that If you plan to tackle steep hills a mid-drive is the better option but I’m finding hub drives that seem to have a good amount of power…The one I am looking at now is Bafang 750 watt, 80 N.m. Given my lighter weight at 135lbs, and hilly terrain not necessarily mountainous, I’m thinking I’m going to be fine with that hub drive, which also offers torque sensing, and gives me peace of mind around getting home in the face of a malfunction.
I’d appreciate any feedback that any of you can offer.
kv

If the motor fails, mid drive or hub, with or without a throttle, you're going to have to pedal home. The "no power" pedal effort will be approximately the same with either motor type. This will vary slightly depending on the type of hub motor.

Chain failures are rare if it's maintained properly. You're more likely to have a derailleur problem. In either case, a hub motor with throttle will get you back. Without a throttle, it will depend on the type of sensor the PAS system uses and where it is located. Torque & cadence sensors may or may not work with a broken chain or derailleur depending on the bike's design.

The safest bet is a hub with throttle. This makes the bike a class 2 and can be subject to restrictions depending on where you ride.

Rear flats can be more difficult to repair on the road with a hub motor. You might consider puncture resistant tires, tire liners and tube sealant as added precautions.

 

[JES2020]

Hi,
I really appreciate this comment because I was looking for something that would explain this to me. I am in the middle of deciding between mid drive and hub drive….This will be my first electric bike. My question to you is about a reverse situation…In other words instead of the broken chain scenario what if the motor fails and the throttle is not available…Will the hub drive (vs mid drive) be a better option for peddling home? Lastly, it is clear that If you plan to tackle steep hills a mid-drive is the better option but I’m finding hub drives that seem to have a good amount of power…The one I am looking at now is Bafang 750 watt, 80 N.m. Given my lighter weight at 135lbs, and hilly terrain not necessarily mountainous, I’m thinking I’m going to be fine with that hub drive, which also offers torque sensing, and gives me peace of mind around getting home in the face of a malfunction.
I’d appreciate any feedback that any of you can offer.
kv

One thing I don't see mentioned regarding hill climbing with a hub motor, if you have a set of gears on the bike, you can certainly down shift to low gear and then along with the easy hill climb due to low gear, you have the hub motor still assisting you. If that makes sense.
Also when choosing between geared or direct drive hubs, a geared motor will have no drag when not in use. The wheel spins freely. On a direct drive the wheel will not spin freely, you will have drag from the magnets passing over each other.(one reason I choose geared). Coasting with a DD is pretty much out of the question, unless you are going down hill on a steep grade .

 

[JRA]

"On a direct drive the wheel will not spin freely, you will have drag from the magnets passing over each other.(one reason I choose geared). Coasting with a DD is pretty much out of the question, unless you are going down hill on a steep grade ."

Not my experience on both 9c and Grin All Axle hub motors using Statorade that reduces the friction element you speak of. The All Axle bike especially because it is a comparable weight to geared drive motor, I have ridden it quite a bit with the motor off actually. And both hubs are very quiet as opposed to the whir/whine you get from geared hub while under power.

 

[JES2020]

"On a direct drive the wheel will not spin freely, you will have drag from the magnets passing over each other.(one reason I choose geared). Coasting with a DD is pretty much out of the question, unless you are going down hill on a steep grade ."

Not my experience on both 9c and Grin All Axle hub motors using Statorade that reduces the friction element you speak of. The All Axle bike especially because it is a comparable weight to geared drive motor, I have ridden it quite a bit with the motor off actually. And both hubs are very quiet as opposed to the whir/whine you get from geared hub while under power.

I have heard their are some DDs that don't have "much " drag, smaller ones obviously will have less drag.
It's not really a "friction element", (so I don't know what effect Statorade would have, which is mostly for cooling the motor), It has to do with magnetic resistance.

Anyway, here is a quote from BikeBerry.com, re; DD hubs:
"Moreover, the magnetic field these motors have will produce drag when pedaling or coasting, making it slower when not throttled and harder to pedal."

 

[AHicks]

He was saying ALL bikes. I have a hub motor , it is not necessary to come off the power or pressure when shifting, on a hub motor. Therefore NOT necessary on All bikes.

I'll give you it's not AS necessary, but for smooth shifts and long drive train life, letting off the pressure when shifting gears on ANY bike, including those that aren't motorized, is a very good idea....

One thing I don't see mentioned regarding hill climbing with a hub motor, if you have a set of gears on the bike, you can certainly down shift to low gear and then along with the easy hill climb due to low gear, you have the hub motor still assisting you. If that makes sense.
Also when choosing between geared or direct drive hubs, a geared motor will have no drag when not in use. The wheel spins freely. On a direct drive the wheel will not spin freely, you will have drag from the magnets passing over each other.(one reason I choose geared). Coasting with a DD is pretty much out of the question, unless you are going down hill on a steep grade .

Maybe you haven't experienced some of the bigger and/or longer "hills" some are saying require a mid drive. Unless you have a superman suit on, you're only going to be able to supply enough power to climb for a few minutes, then your forward speed is going to go to -0- as both you and your geared hub motor both run out of steam, no matter what gear you are in. From there, you're walking the bike to the top of that hill. That's a situation many of us are trying to avoid....

I am NOT saying hub drives won't climb. I have a 1000w MAC 12t geared hub that is a VERY good climber, even with my 300lb butt on it! IMHO this is about how much power the motor has available, and what kind of load you're asking of it. Clearly it's going to take more power to get somebody my size up a hill (way more!) than it will to get somebody that weighs 125lbs up that same hill.

That's one of the things that make this geared hub vs. mid drive call so difficult. When you take motor size, then load, then add all of the variables regarding what "hill" means to different people, that's just the icing on top of this cake!

"On a direct drive the wheel will not spin freely, you will have drag from the magnets passing over each other.(one reason I choose geared). Coasting with a DD is pretty much out of the question, unless you are going down hill on a steep grade ."

Not my experience on both 9c and Grin All Axle hub motors using Statorade that reduces the friction element you speak of. The All Axle bike especially because it is a comparable weight to geared drive motor, I have ridden it quite a bit with the motor off actually. And both hubs are very quiet as opposed to the whir/whine you get from geared hub while under power.

All due respect, but not sure what the Statorade would have to do with this? That's about cooling, and if anything will add to the drag when coasting due to the pumping that happens as the rotor and stator are splashing through the Statorade. Further, if you have a direct drive, and you lift that wheel up, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to feel the "notching" of the rotor due to the magnets. That notching is going to cause drag when coasting, no matter who makes the motor. I don't know how that could be avoided. This is the exact reason both the geared hub designs AND the mid drive designs (that I'm aware of) all use clutches to release the motor from the drive line while coasting.

I would add that this drag is NOT all that apparent in normal usage. It's not something that is a big deal to most riders - until - they try pedaling with no power. That's no fun...

That in mind, pedaling either the geared hub or mid drive without power IS a little tougher, but it's NOT due to motor drag. It's way more about extra parts whirring around, fat(ter) tires, and a heavier bike. -Al

 

[KimV]

I'll give you it's not AS necessary, but for smooth shifts and long drive train life, letting off the pressure when shifting gears on ANY bike, including those that aren't motorized, is a very good idea....


Maybe you haven't experienced some of the bigger and/or longer "hills" some are saying require a mid drive. Unless you have a superman suit on, you're only going to be able to supply enough power to climb for a few minutes, then your forward speed is going to go to -0- as both you and your geared hub motor both run out of steam, no matter what gear you are in. From there, you're walking the bike to the top of that hill. That's a situation many of us are trying to avoid....

I am NOT saying hub drives won't climb. I have a 1000w MAC 12t geared hub that is a VERY good climber, even with my 300lb butt on it! IMHO this is about how much power the motor has available, and what kind of load you're asking of it. Clearly it's going to take more power to get somebody my size up a hill (way more!) than it will to get somebody that weighs 125lbs up that same hill.

That's one of the things that make this geared hub vs. mid drive call so difficult. When you take motor size, then load, then add all of the variables regarding what "hill" means to different people, that's just the icing on top of this cake!




All due respect, but not sure what the Statorade would have to do with this? That's about cooling, and if anything will add to the drag when coasting due to the pumping that happens as the rotor and stator are splashing through the Statorade. Further, if you have a direct drive, and you lift that wheel up, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to feel the "notching" of the rotor due to the magnets. That notching is going to cause drag when coasting, no matter who makes the motor. I don't know how that could be avoided. This is the exact reason both the geared hub designs AND the mid drive designs (that I'm aware of) all use clutches to release the motor from the drive line while coasting.

I would add that this drag is NOT all that apparent in normal usage. It's not something that is a big deal to most riders - until - they try pedaling with no power. That's no fun...

That in mind, pedaling either the geared hub or mid drive without power IS a little tougher, but it's NOT due to motor drag. It's way more about extra parts whirring around, fat(ter) tires, and a heavier bike. -Al

I'll give you it's not AS necessary, but for smooth shifts and long drive train life, letting off the pressure when shifting gears on ANY bike, including those that aren't motorized, is a very good idea....


Maybe you haven't experienced some of the bigger and/or longer "hills" some are saying require a mid drive. Unless you have a superman suit on, you're only going to be able to supply enough power to climb for a few minutes, then your forward speed is going to go to -0- as both you and your geared hub motor both run out of steam, no matter what gear you are in. From there, you're walking the bike to the top of that hill. That's a situation many of us are trying to avoid....

I am NOT saying hub drives won't climb. I have a 1000w MAC 12t geared hub that is a VERY good climber, even with my 300lb butt on it! IMHO this is about how much power the motor has available, and what kind of load you're asking of it. Clearly it's going to take more power to get somebody my size up a hill (way more!) than it will to get somebody that weighs 125lbs up that same hill.

That's one of the things that make this geared hub vs. mid drive call so difficult. When you take motor size, then load, then add all of the variables regarding what "hill" means to different people, that's just the icing on top of this cake!




All due respect, but not sure what the Statorade would have to do with this? That's about cooling, and if anything will add to the drag when coasting due to the pumping that happens as the rotor and stator are splashing through the Statorade. Further, if you have a direct drive, and you lift that wheel up, I'm pretty sure you'll be able to feel the "notching" of the rotor due to the magnets. That notching is going to cause drag when coasting, no matter who makes the motor. I don't know how that could be avoided. This is the exact reason both the geared hub designs AND the mid drive designs (that I'm aware of) all use clutches to release the motor from the drive line while coasting.

I would add that this drag is NOT all that apparent in normal usage. It's not something that is a big deal to most riders - until - they try pedaling with no power. That's no fun...

That in mind, pedaling either the geared hub or mid drive without power IS a little tougher, but it's NOT due to motor drag. It's way more about extra parts whirring around, fat(ter) tires, and a heavier bike. -Al

Thank you, Al.
So based on your comment about the variables that affect the hub vs mid drive motor I’d love to get your opinion…..
To get very specific here I am trying to weigh out the Rize Leisure w a 750 80nm hub drive against the Dost which is offered as a mid drive. I’m not going to say that cost does not matter and I do realize there is a good difference and certainly would like to spend less. So, putting the cost aside for the moment, my dilemma here is the fact that Dost pairs their mid drive with cadence sensing and Rize pairs the hub drive with torque sensing. I definitely want a throttle and for the moment the Rize fat tires appeal more as I feel I’d open up the option of riding the beach as well. This area is hilly, not truly mountainous, and again I’m 135 lbs. I feel like I’m leaning toward the Rize for the torque sensing and the tires. And back to cost, I can get the Rize with the additional battery and still be under the cost of the Dost. Which makes me think I’m paying mostly for the mid drive with the Dost…so now I need to figure out how well I will do with Rize’s motor on hills.

 

[JES2020]

I have heard their are some DDs that don't have "much " drag, smaller ones obviously will have less drag.
It's not really a "friction element", (so I don't know what effect Statorade would have, which is mostly for cooling the motor), It has to do with magnetic resistance.

Anyway, here is a quote from BikeBerry.com, re; DD hubs:
"Moreover, the magnetic field these motors have will produce drag when pedaling or coasting, making it slower when not throttled and harder to pedal."

Thank you, Al.
So based on your comment about the variables that affect the hub vs mid drive motor I’d love to get your opinion…..
To get very specific here I am trying to weigh out the Rize Leisure w a 750 80nm hub drive against the Dost which is offered as a mid drive. I’m not going to say that cost does not matter and I do realize there is a good difference and certainly would like to spend less. So, putting the cost aside for the moment, my dilemma here is the fact that Dost pairs their mid drive with cadence sensing and Rize pairs the hub drive with torque sensing. I definitely want a throttle and for the moment the Rize fat tires appeal more as I feel I’d open up the option of riding the beach as well. This area is hilly, not truly mountainous, and again I’m 135 lbs. I feel like I’m leaning toward the Rize for the torque sensing and the tires. And back to cost, I can get the Rize with the additional battery and still be under the cost of the Dost. Which makes me think I’m paying mostly for the mid drive with the Dost…so now I need to figure out how well I will do with Rize’s motor on hills.

I'll give you it's not AS necessary, but for smooth shifts and long drive train life, letting off the pressure when shifting gears on ANY bike, including those that aren't motorized, is a very good idea....

The difference being "come off" vs "reduce". If you don't "come off" the power on a mid, your are asking for big trouble fairly quickly ! Where as with a hub, you can shift under full power and ride for decades like that, (you have to admit that it is possible). Simply reducing the pressure while shifting, is all that is necessary to extend the life of the trani, on a hub or acoustic bike.

 

[JES2020]

then your forward speed is going to go to -0- as both you and your geared hub motor both run out of steam,

Completely relative to sooo many factors, including your athletic ability.

 

[mjeds]

Hi,
I really appreciate this comment because I was looking for something that would explain this to me. I am in the middle of deciding between mid drive and hub drive….This will be my first electric bike. My question to you is about a reverse situation…In other words instead of the broken chain scenario what if the motor fails and the throttle is not available…Will the hub drive (vs mid drive) be a better option for peddling home? Lastly, it is clear that If you plan to tackle steep hills a mid-drive is the better option but I’m finding hub drives that seem to have a good amount of power…The one I am looking at now is Bafang 750 watt, 80 N.m. Given my lighter weight at 135lbs, and hilly terrain not necessarily mountainous, I’m thinking I’m going to be fine with that hub drive, which also offers torque sensing, and gives me peace of mind around getting home in the face of a malfunction.
I’d appreciate any feedback that any of you can offer.
k

If the motor fails, mid drive or hub, with or without a throttle, you're going to have to pedal home. The "no power" pedal effort will be approximately the same with either motor type. This will vary slightly depending on the type of hub motor.

Chain failures are rare if it's maintained properly. You're more likely to have a derailleur problem. In either case, a hub motor with throttle will get you back. Without a throttle, it will depend on the type of sensor the PAS system uses and where it is located. Torque & cadence sensors may or may not work with a broken chain or derailleur depending on the bike's design.

The safest bet is a hub with throttle. This makes the bike a class 2 and can be subject to restrictions depending on where you ride.

Rear flats can be more difficult to repair on the road with a hub motor. You might consider puncture resistant tires, tire liners and tube sealant as added precautions.

So I now have both and mid and a hub drive bike, I recently purchased a Diamondback Current with a Bosch Performance line mid-drive. plus, I have the Cyrusher XF800 hub drive, which has 30,000 miles on it now.

I love the Diamondback, for exercise and leisure riding it is far superior to the hub drive. I get a better workout, the bike weighs 50lbs not 100lbs, so pedaling without the motor/assist is not a struggle. I can maintain 14-15mph with no PAS easily and I am not killing myself. skinny road tires so much less rolling resistance.

Pushing the 100lb Cyrusher with 4" fat tires without any assist is a killer, I can barely maintain 4-5mph.

The same situation holds true however, for commuting I much prefer the fat tire hub motor, I've had a few mechanical breakdowns where the throttle got me to my destination, and if the same breakdown had occurred on the mid-drive, I would have been stuck.

While rear flats are a pain, even with tire liners (got 8 staples in my tire once from a nutbag that dropped a box of nails and staples off the back of his pickup in front of me and I couldn't avoid it).

I carry all the necessary tools and have it down to about 15 minutes on the side of the road to either swap a tube or patch a tube. it sucks to have to carry extra tools, but when you are using the bike as your sole means of transportation in a world littered with trash on city streets, it is what it is. 18mm wrench, zip ties, cutters, tire removal levers (spoons), removal clamp, air pump (electric and manual), patches, etc.

It's about 6-8 extra pounds when you include a spare 26" x 4" innertube. but as I have said, better to have the extra tools than sit on the side of the road for 4-6 hours waiting for help.

 

[AHicks]

Completely relative to sooo many factors, including your athletic ability.

Agree completely, and definitely agree regarding athletic ability. Speaking for myself, I don't mind supplying SOME of the required power (especially when climbing), but speaking for the "hills" in the area I ride frequently, the reason I have a 1000w motor geared hub is that smaller geared hubs, AND 1500w direct drives, would NOT get the job done. Been there, done that.

 

[AHicks]

Thank you, Al.
So based on your comment about the variables that affect the hub vs mid drive motor I’d love to get your opinion…..
To get very specific here I am trying to weigh out the Rize Leisure w a 750 80nm hub drive against the Dost which is offered as a mid drive. I’m not going to say that cost does not matter and I do realize there is a good difference and certainly would like to spend less. So, putting the cost aside for the moment, my dilemma here is the fact that Dost pairs their mid drive with cadence sensing and Rize pairs the hub drive with torque sensing. I definitely want a throttle and for the moment the Rize fat tires appeal more as I feel I’d open up the option of riding the beach as well. This area is hilly, not truly mountainous, and again I’m 135 lbs. I feel like I’m leaning toward the Rize for the torque sensing and the tires. And back to cost, I can get the Rize with the additional battery and still be under the cost of the Dost. Which makes me think I’m paying mostly for the mid drive with the Dost…so now I need to figure out how well I will do with Rize’s motor on hills.

You've been shopping too long, maybe need a break? You're asking me to compare a Rize Leisure with a Dost mid drive? Not following. As far as what? Climbing power? Price?

As far as Cadence based PAS vs. torque sensing, I have no experience with the Rize torque sensing on a geared hub. That's a completely different animal that the Ultra equipped bikes.

As far as the Dost in general, I haven't ridden or inspected one closely in person, but I'm NOT seeing all the extra money they're asking in the spec sheets. If this Dost were being sold to you by a local dealer and you were planning on having them do a lot of the maintenance work, THAT would be a much different deal. Could be money well spent.

 

[JES2020]

So I now have both and mid and a hub drive bike, I recently purchased a Diamondback Current with a Bosch Performance line mid-drive. plus, I have the Cyrusher XF800 hub drive, which has 30,000 miles on it now.

I love the Diamondback, for exercise and leisure riding it is far superior to the hub drive. I get a better workout, the bike weighs 50lbs not 100lbs, so pedaling without the motor/assist is not a struggle. I can maintain 14-15mph with no PAS easily and I am not killing myself. skinny road tires so much less rolling resistance.

Pushing the 100lb Cyrusher with 4" fat tires without any assist is a killer, I can barely maintain 4-5mph.

The same situation holds true however, for commuting I much prefer the fat tire hub motor, I've had a few mechanical breakdowns where the throttle got me to my destination, and if the same breakdown had occurred on the mid-drive, I would have been stuck.

While rear flats are a pain, even with tire liners (got 8 staples in my tire once from a nutbag that dropped a box of nails and staples off the back of his pickup in front of me and I couldn't avoid it).

I carry all the necessary tools and have it down to about 15 minutes on the side of the road to either swap a tube or patch a tube. it sucks to have to carry extra tools, but when you are using the bike as your sole means of transportation in a world littered with trash on city streets, it is what it is. 18mm wrench, zip ties, cutters, tire removal levers (spoons), removal clamp, air pump (electric and manual), patches, etc.

It's about 6-8 extra pounds when you include a spare 26" x 4" innertube. but as I have said, better to have the extra tools than sit on the side of the road for 4-6 hours waiting for help.

100 pounds !!! Not to laugh, but 100 pounds?
I thought my hub bike was heavy at 70 pounds.
That's with a 48 v 21 ah battery 1500w geared hub, a huge Abus u lock and an Abus cafe lock w/chain. Extended handle bars, fenders, alarm, a full tool kit, heavy duty add on seat suspension and it's a full size Trek 830. I also have lights, a GPS and a car horn.
How much do those fat tires weigh? Because I'm thinking that's where all that weight is from.

 

[tomjasz]

1500w direct drives, would NOT get the job done.

Well almost true. Lots of riders use Statoraide and cooling fins. With impressive results. But regardless of the naysayers, mid drives climb up all road grades. Sorry Al I guess I'm preaching to the choir.

 

[mjeds]

100 pounds !!! Not to laugh, but 100 pounds?
I thought my hub bike was heavy at 70 pounds.
That's with a 48 v 21 ah battery 1500w geared hub, a huge Abus u lock and an Abus cafe lock w/chain. Extended handle bars, fenders, alarm, a full tool kit, heavy duty add on seat suspension and it's a full size Trek 830. I also have lights, a GPS and a car horn.
How much do those fat tires weigh? Because I'm thinking that's where all that weight is from.

Out of the box it is 79lbs I believe. but adding a cargo rack, fenders, second battery, panniers, horn, and various other things, plus what I need to carry with me to and from work (laptop, food, etc) yeah 100lbs or so.

 

[AHicks]

Well almost true. Lots of riders use Statoraide and cooling fins. With impressive results. But regardless of the naysayers, mid drives climb up all road grades. Sorry Al I guess I'm preaching to the choir.

Tom, I had a 1500w direct drive (from Leaf) fed with a 35a controller. The fact that bike would NOT get the job done is what led me to the MAC 12t. I ordered the MAC the day I came home from pushing that darn thing one too mane times. Statoraide will cool them, not discounting that, but it's not going to do a darn thing to help it climb in the case of these short steep hills. The MAC literally chews that DD drive up when it come to climbing power..... No comparison... more power AND better range.

 

[m@Robertson]

I'll give you it's not AS necessary, but for smooth shifts and long drive train life, letting off the pressure when shifting gears on ANY bike, including those that aren't motorized, is a very good idea....

Honestly, as much as I don't want to get involved in this silly pissing match, I will say that what @JES2020 says about shifting a geared hub has been my experience as well. You can hammer the throttle all you want (and I do) and shift as you please because the hub powers the bike thru the axle, not the chain. Compounding this is the motor freewheels forward. Taking both of those things into account, there is no pressure *from the motor* on the drivetrain. Now, there IS pressure from the rider, and on an analog bike, you shift under hard pressure all the time. However to muddy up an already murky subject, hub motor bikes typically have s*it drivetrains because the manufacturer cuts corners because they know the manual drivetrain is forever playing second fiddle. So shifting under foot power is in fact more likely to be problematic because of the cheap components, AND because of the motor casing now holding on the freewheel versus it being a nice stout hub bolted directly to the dropouts.

Did I just make the opposite case for the one I said I was going to make?

Well, the whole 'in my experience' thing is because when I am running my 2wd hub bike, its commuting on flat, level pavement and I seldom shift to do anything but increase my cadence. In that world I could care less what the motor is doing as I am never putting hard pressure on the pedals unless I am already in low gear and have crossed 28 mph.

No matter what anyone's anecdotal experience: hubs are at a disadvantage on hills, period.

The stuff about losing a chain? Carry one. Its an ebike. Who cares if you add a half pound? The burger and soda you stuffed into your face mid-ride weighs more, most likely.