Mid drive ?

[linklemming]

Which are illegal or not welcomed in the EU.

There are privacy settings in Strava that protect the privacy of your home location.

We've got a saying in Poland. "A cow that roars loudest gives the least of milk"

Well you win then according to your post count....congrats, you described yourself perfectly

 

[Stefan Mikes]

200W less than the EU version

There is no EU version of the Stromer. It is not about the power but speed. And about the EU regulation on L1e-B.
Lemming, Johnny. May I ask you how many miles you rode in 2020 and with what elevation gain? (That's about the said cow).

 

[linklemming]

Here are some weight stats for my DIY GMAC build and a Brose Speed Pedelec (iZip Moda E3) which I consider a light ebike

DIY GMAC build with 702wh battery - 50#
iZip Moda E3 with 500wh battery - 51.5#

DIY build has more range for every situation I have used

 

[linklemming]

There is no EU version of the Stromer. It is not about the power but speed. And about the EU regulation on L1e-B.
Lemming, Johnny. May I ask you how many miles you rode in 2020 and with what elevation gain? (That's about the said cow).

Why thanks for so kindly asking, nice to know you care.

6758 miles to be exact, garmin connect doesnt show total elevation but since I ride the same routes which averages 1500ft for 25 miles, simple math would be

(6758/25) = number of rides = 270

270*1500ft = 405,480ft

Are we in some sort of contest now? Whats next, human power (I average 150-200w per ride according to CA, I think you are at 80W......Am I still the cow now?)

 

[Johnny]

The Mission Control app reports it as 'Motor Power'. There are 20 parameters that the app can display, four of these are battery power (Wh consumption, Wh/mile consumption, Wh power level, and % power level).

You may want to double check that value. I think Stefan stated somewhere that the motor power is actually power draw from the battery not the output.

This graph is from https://www.emtbforums.com/;

Max torque up to ~60rpm, max power @ ~105rpm.

Thank you for the graph. If the graph is true than the torque you get at 100rpm is around 67-68nm which is good but significantly less than 80nm.
700W peak is nice the torque is somewhat flat which means X2 is very close to Bosch gen 4 cx may be a bit less peppy at lower rpms. But again 700W is peak power, I don't know how long it can stay at that level.

There is no EU version of the Stromer. It is not about the power but speed. And about the EU regulation on L1e-B.
Lemming, Johnny. May I ask you how many miles you rode in 2020 and with what elevation gain? (That's about the said cow).

I didn't ride much this year since I am not commuting, around 2-2.5k only. From my averages I seem to have climbed around 170-200K ft total. I live next to hills. My average rider input is around 200W.

 

[Johnny]

DIY GMAC build with 702wh battery - 40#

Wow that is quite light for the given power and battery capacity.

I also remember Moda, I really liked it unfortunately I already got a bosch at that time so couldn't get it but that is also lighter than I expected.

 

[BigNerd]

Since I'm fairly new here, has @Stefan Mikes owned a hub drive?

I think the best opinions come from people who have owned both.

I don't own a mid-drive, but I've tested one and I do understand what people say about the advantages of mid-drive, but for reasons of affordability, the kind of rides I do, and the higher availability of throttle... I prefer (or maybe can only afford) rear hub.

That may change if there is a sub-$1k light, mid-drive with a throttle being somewhere in unicorn land.

 

[linklemming]

Wow that is quite light for the given power and battery capacity.

I also remember Moda, I really liked it unfortunately I already got a bosch at that time so couldn't get it but that is also lighter than I expected.

The real numbers are 50# and 51.5#, not sure how I missed that

 

[McCorby]

Since I'm fairly new here, has @Stefan Mikes owned a hub drive?

I think the best opinions come from people who have owned both.

I don't own a mid-drive, but I've tested one and I do understand what people say about the advantages of mid-drive, but for reasons of affordability, the kind of rides I do, and the higher availability of throttle... I prefer (or maybe can only afford) rear hub.

That may change if there is a sub-$1k light, mid-drive with a throttle being somewhere in unicorn land.

Yes, Stefan has or had a Lovelec hub drive bike.

 

[theemartymac]

I have two very similar bikes, one hub (750W), one mid (1000W), and while the mid is definitely my preference for the hill climbing and top speed, if I could get the same performance out of a hub at the same price point I would take that hands down. The hub is just the easiest to operate and very city friendly. Once we can get efficient and 'light' 1000-1500W hubs (or a seamless mid-drive system with no shift interruption or chain stress), I think life will be grand. But until then, my 1000W Ultra beast will keep me plenty happy.

 

[McCorby]

I have two very similar bikes, one hub (750W), one mid (1000W), and while the mid is definitely my preference for the hill climbing and top speed, if I could get the same performance out of a hub at the same price point I would take that hands down. The hub is just the easiest to operate and very city friendly. Once we can get efficient and 'light' 1000-1500W hubs (or a seamless mid-drive system with no shift interruption or chain stress), I think life will be grand. But until then, my 1000W Ultra beast will keep me plenty happy.

Why do you think this? My city/commuter with a mid-drive is no harder to ride compared to a similar bike with a hub motor. In fact, I’ll argue it’s easier, since there’s no lag in power delivery when you start and stop pedaling, compared to a cadence sensor only hub motor (Which currently most hub drives are).

......and yes, I have ridden both, and I prefer the more natural power delivery of a mid-drive.

I find the whole chain stress/wear argument somewhat humorous. It is just good practice to ease up on the pedals when shifting. It doesn’t matter if it’s a mid-drive, hub drive or a non-powered bike. Sure, my chain may wear a little more quickly, but for me, the mid-drives advantages far outweigh this tiny “issue”.

 

[theemartymac]

Why do you think this? My city/commuter with a mid-drive is no harder to ride compared to a similar bike with a hub motor. In fact, I’ll argue it’s easier, since there’s no lag in power delivery when you start and stop pedaling, compared to a cadence sensor only hub motor (Which currently most hub drives are).

......and yes, I have ridden both, and I prefer the more natural power delivery of a mid-drive.

I find the whole chain stress/wear argument somewhat humorous. It is just good practice to ease up on the pedals when shifting. It doesn’t matter if it’s a mid-drive, hub drive or a non-powered bike. Sure, my chain may wear a little more quickly, but for me, the mid-drives advantages far outweigh this tiny “issue”.

When stop and go riding, you need to be on the ball with your downshifts if you want to be able to always have the right gear selected to start off. If you stop short and don't get down shifted all the way, you can use the hub to get going and immediately shift into your preferred gear with no interruption to power delivery. You can also shift up through the gears to match your acceleration without any loss of momentum which is nice on mild hills. With the shift interruption on the mid, if you get caught out of gear, you are left using the throttle until the bike catches up to the gear, or the power is interrupted as soon as you try to shift which can be a mild pain in the butt when you are mixed in with traffic and trying to use max acceleration to keep out front.

While the mid is not terrible by any means, it is more work, and requires more precision as an operator to be as smooth and efficient (and lazily effortless) as the hub. The power and gearing more than make up for it in the end, but like I said, the seamless power of the hub with the broad power delivery of the mid would be the best possible scenario.

 

[Johnny]

The real numbers are 50# and 51.5#, not sure how I missed that

50 lbs for that build is still very impressive. After getting used to Stromer my 55lbs mtb feels quite light.

 

[McCorby]

When stop and go riding, you need to be on the ball with your downshifts if you want to be able to always have the right gear selected to start off. If you stop short and don't get down shifted all the way, you can use the hub to get going and immediately shift into your preferred gear with no interruption to power delivery. You can also shift up through the gears to match your acceleration without any loss of momentum which is nice on mild hills. With the shift interruption on the mid, if you get caught out of gear, you are left using the throttle until the bike catches up to the gear, or the power is interrupted as soon as you try to shift which can be a mild pain in the butt when you are mixed in with traffic and trying to use max acceleration to keep out front.

While the mid is not terrible by any means, it is more work, and requires more precision as an operator to be as smooth and efficient (and lazily effortless) as the hub. The power and gearing more than make up for it in the end, but like I said, the seamless power of the hub with the broad power delivery of the mid would be the best possible scenario.

The issues you point out regarding shifting are really non-issues if you are proficient riding bicycles. I suppose for someone who is not proficient, a hub may be a better option.

Regarding “shift interruption”, my bike does not have this, nor would I want it. I’m assuming you are referring to what Bafang systems use. An interrupt switch inline with the shifter cable. Bosch’s software solution is much less obtrusive in comparison.

 

[FlatSix911]

This graph is from https://www.emtbforums.com/ ;
View attachment 76121
Max torque up to ~60rpm, max power @ ~105rpm.

Thanks for sharing the PW-X2 power and torque curves...
with a very impressive 700W of power and 70Nm of torque at 100 rpm (the max cadence for most non-pro cyclists)

 

[AHicks]

The issues you point out regarding shifting are really non-issues if you are proficient riding bicycles. I suppose for someone who is not proficient, a hub may be a better option.

Regarding “shift interruption”, my bike does not have this, nor would I want it. I’m assuming you are referring to what Bafang systems use. An interrupt switch inline with the shifter cable. Bosch’s software solution is much less obtrusive in comparison.

I have a 1000w geared hub and a Bafang Ultra, and I'd agree that all else being equal, the hub is easier to ride. With the Ultra's power on tap, I'm here to tell you that you don't need to be in first gear to accelerate smoothy and normally from a stop, especially with a throttle. I've found 5th (of 9) works just fine while pulling just 2-300w! Maybe that will take the edge off of your need to be "proficient" thought? Would it help if I added I'm 70 and 315lbs?

Let's talk about that mickey mouse hub drive you were talking about. The one you suggest has the "lag in power delivery when you start and stop pedaling". Are you telling us that because the hub drive you were riding had this "feature" that you believe all hub drive have that?

Maybe if you would consider comparing a hub drive of similar quality to your mid drive, you'd have a different opinion?

At the end of the day though, I'd agree the mid drive would be my favorite bike. I enjoy being in "sync" with the bike and the conditions I'm riding in at the moment. Takes more work, but I get more satisfaction out of it....

It's about priorities, not how cool you or your bike is....

 

[McCorby]

I have a 1000w geared hub and a Bafang Ultra, and I'd agree that all else being equal, the hub is easier to ride. With the Ultra's power on tap, I'm here to tell you that you don't need to be in first gear to accelerate smoothy and normally from a stop, especially with a throttle. I've found 5th (of 9) works just fine while pulling just 2-300w! Maybe that will take the edge off of your need to be "proficient" thought? Would it help if I added I'm 70 and 315lbs?

It sounds like I hurt your feeling regarding my thoughts on riding proficiency....sorry. I never said anything about needing to start in first gear. I typically start in 3rd (9 speed). I have no idea what your point is regarding your age and weight in respect to what I posted?

Let's talk about that mickey mouse hub drive you were talking about. The one you suggest has the "lag in power delivery when you start and stop pedaling". Are you telling us that because the hub drive you were riding had this "feature" that you believe all hub drive have that?

Maybe if you would consider comparing a hub drive of similar quality to your mid drive, you'd have a different opinion?

I have ridden multiple hub drive bikes with only a cadence sensor. The one’s I rode all had this lag. Some more than others. They also felt like turning the cranks was just turning a switch on and off and I needed to control my speed by continuously changing the pas level. Again, some more than others. I know there are hub systems that don’t have these characteristics, I just have never had the opportunity to try one as they seem to be the exception more than the rule at this time. Am I wrong? I’m sure something like a Stromer is pretty sweet and doesn’t have these characteristics, but they’re out of my price range.

It's about priorities, not how cool you or your bike is....

It sounds like you have really “cool” bikes! I don’t really consider mine cool, but it gets the job done. I also don’t think I’m all that cool, but you sure seem pretty cool!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Since I'm fairly new here, has @Stefan Mikes owned a hub drive?

Indeed. There are good points about geared hub-drive motor (GHDM) e-bikes. These are ideal for cruising, especially on the flat. The characteristics of my PAS GHDM 250 W Lovelec is when I get onto the cruising speed, the bike helps me to maintain that speed for hours. Very good thing for commuting, these GHDM e-bikes. Or, for long recreation rides. However, I would not ride that e-bike in a hilly area (that would require far more power than legal EU limit is). Also, confronted with gusts of headwind, the ride on my Lovelec becomes jerky; while my MDM e-bikes cut through strong adverse wind like a knife cutting butter.

Motor Power: Both Mission Control and BLEvo can only measure the battery power draw. Brose declares the maximum efficiency of the TF motor at 85%. I have determined the actual efficiency of that motor run at the 100% Turbo mode and cadence 80-85 would be closer to 78%.

Regarding the comment of derestricting one of my e-bikes, my illegal actions are my illegal actions. The main reason for that action has been the fact I need the cruising speed of 27-28 km/h (the legal limit is 25 km/h) while on road with no "wall-effect) at 25 km/h. For off-road rides (for which the e-MTB is actually designed), the average speed of this e-bike is around 17 km/h (10.6 mph) even if I rode as fast as 59.4 km/h downhill (only by gravity).

Revisiting the Stromer, any e-bike with assistance over 28 mph is illegal in the United States as well. It is different in Switzerland, of course. Even putting the legal debate aside, Direct Drive motor is not the GHDM and cannot be discussed when we compare GHDM to MDMs. (Pretty heavy on the rear axle, aye?)

Congratulations Link for your rides! Unfortunately, I'm working and cannot devote as much time for riding as you do. Still, 5000 miles in a year means I'm riding, too, and am the Forum post leader as well, true

 

[AHicks]

It sounds like I hurt your feeling regarding my thoughts on riding proficiency....sorry. I never said anything about needing to start in first gear. I typically start in 3rd (9 speed). I have no idea what your point is regarding your age and weight in respect to what I posted?


I have ridden multiple hub drive bikes with only a cadence sensor. The one’s I rode all had this lag. Some more than others. They also felt like turning the cranks was just turning a switch on and off and I needed to control my speed by continuously changing the pas level. Again, some more than others. I know there are hub systems that don’t have these characteristics, I just have never had the opportunity to try one as they seem to be the exception more than the rule at this time. Am I wrong? I’m sure something like a Stromer is pretty sweet and doesn’t have these characteristics, but they’re out of my price range.


It sounds like you have really “cool” bikes! I don’t really consider mine cool, but it gets the job done. I also don’t think I’m all that cool, but you sure seem pretty cool!

My thought was less about my feelings (can't hurt steel ), and more about my level of fitness and the extra power required to get the bike and I moving because of my weight. Point being, starting on a mid drive is less about finesse, and more about 'druthers. Consider the folks that prefer clutches in their daily transportation vs. those that would rather have an automatic. Who's winning that call when it comes to sales numbers?

I will be the first to admit that most of the hub driven bikes today are sub par. The issue I have is that the reason they're this way has WAY less to do with the design of hub drives in general, and WAY more due to the software that's run on them. There's not THAT much difference in the best and worst gear driven hubs mechanically, it's the darn software within the controller that makes the difference. The extra few cents a little extra memory would cost them, and the time and trouble to duplicate what CAN be done currently with well done software, could make all the difference in the world. Good controllers will make a night and day difference in the "rideability" of a geared hub. Because I do have experience with a good one, I struggle when others knock the drive type, when the issue is clearly the level of the quality of the one they were riding.

And last, I'd rather see somebody riding something they can afford, vs. sitting on the sidelines with the thought they can't afford what somebody else might consider a "good" bike. -Al

 

[Johnny]

you can use the hub to get going and immediately shift into your preferred gear with no interruption to power delivery. You can also shift up through the gears to match your acceleration without any loss of momentum which is nice on mild hills. With the shift interruption on the mid, if you get caught out of gear, you are left using the throttle until the bike catches up to the gear, or the power is interrupted as soon as you try to shift which can be a mild pain in the butt when you are mixed in with traffic and trying to use max acceleration to keep out front.

You have some valid points here. One of the things I like riding a quality hub on the road is shifting does not effect the output of the motor since the rpm of the hub only depends on speed. After the shift the hub resumes giving the same amount of power as before. That is probably what you also like.
When you shift on a mid drive, that results in a significant cadence change, this results in changing your point in the powerband significantly. If you lower your cadence too much then the motor, especially at higher support levels, will give less power until you reach a similar cadence again. That is probably what you feel. Of course at lower support levels or with big motors like ultra this effect is minimized. So the advantage of mid drive in climbing becomes a disadvantage when riding on the not too steep roads.

The delay that people experience in cheaper hub systems is a combination of having a low resolution cadence only sensor and low sampling rate at the controller. The lower the resolution the more angular movement it takes to detect speed hence will cause a delay. Also low quality controllers do not have the proper implementation that will create a smooth start for these motors. The forums is full of silly generalizations of these systems by looking at the low end systems.