Mid drive ?

[theemartymac]

How do you like The Fat Tires? How wide?

I guess I should try it. But I kind of think it might be Overkill

How Does it handle?

You ever ride a 2.8 inch tire. I'm thinking that might be the best of both worlds

Both my bikes are 4" wide Kenda Juggernaut tires. I like then a lot for my needs, which is primarily log distance commuting on rural mixed use trails (50/50 asphalt and gravel), plus weekend rides on old gravel rail beds and a little bit of wide single track. They are not light, and not nimble in tight areas, and I wouldn't want to carry one up a flight of stairs. They can bomb down a flight with comfort though! lol

I have other conventional bikes with 2.5 or 2.75 knobbies for serious trail riding, and both are better for technical riding, but also have much higher-end forks and rear suspensions. I agree 2.75 is my favorite off-road, and would probably do well for me in my current situation, but the electric equivalent to those bikes would be $8-10K CAD. I won't go thinner than 2" because I'm old and fat now, and the maintenance of high pressure tires is a pain in the ass. I can run 20psi all day, and hit curbs and potholes without any major concern for pinch flats or rim damage. The cornering ability in the wet and slippery conditions far surpasses skinny road tires below 2", and I can drive these like my motorcycles in the worst conditions. I've put nearly 2000kms on these two bikes in the past year, much of it on filthy highway median, and all manner of road and trail, and not one flat. I top up the pressure by maybe 1-2 lbs a month.

Again, the 'downtown' crowd would find these big and heavy and awkward, but the 'town and country' crowds out here are probably 50-60% fat tire, and all seem to love them like I do.

 

[Cmulv]

So Poland’s roads are better? Sorry but that’s a supercilious comment.

Guys let's think rationally!

The main issue with e-bikes is not getting an extra few miles per hour faster. It is usually range and comfort and safety

The Reason people are into thin tires on road bikes is because they can go a lot faster. Maybe five miles per hour faster compared to a significantly wider Tire

They Can also accelerate a lot easier

You just don't have those issues on a good ebike

I guarantee you if you swapped out 2.8 inch tires / 1.75 inch e bike tires everyone would want the 2.8 in tires

The Only problem is a lot of evikes aren't designed to fit those tires

Anyway I've already listed about the main reasons are that grip and comfort are going to be way increased, and the trade-off in speed and acceleration is insignificant on an e-bike

 

[theemartymac]

So Poland’s roads are better? Sorry but that’s a supercilious comment.

Of course not, but I would never try and impose my preferences on another countries rider either. There are local considerations for all of it, and some style, some legitimate utility. We can't generalize either direction, only share our own perspectives and experiences.

 

[Cmulv]

Both my bikes are 4" wide Kenda Juggernaut tires. I like then a lot for my needs, which is primarily log distance commuting on rural mixed use trails (50/50 asphalt and gravel), plus weekend rides on old gravel rail beds and a little bit of wide single track. They are not light, and not nimble in tight areas, and I wouldn't want to carry one up a flight of stairs. They can bomb down a flight with comfort though! lol

I have other conventional bikes with 2.5 or 2.75 knobbies for serious trail riding, and both are better for technical riding, but also have much higher-end forks and rear suspensions. I agree 2.75 is my favorite off-road, and would probably do well for me in my current situation, but the electric equivalent to those bikes would be $8-10K CAD. I won't go thinner than 2" because I'm old and fat now, and the maintenance of high pressure tires is a pain in the ass. I can run 20psi all day, and hit curbs and potholes without any major concern for pinch flats or rim damage. The cornering ability in the wet and slippery conditions far surpasses skinny road tires below 2", and I can drive these like my motorcycles in the worst conditions. I've put nearly 2000kms on these two bikes in the past year, much of it on filthy highway median, and all manner of road and trail, and not one flat. I top up the pressure by maybe 1-2 lbs a month.

Again, the 'downtown' crowd would find these big and heavy and awkward, but the 'town and country' crowds out here are probably 50-60% fat tire, and all seem to love them like I do.

what would you recommend for an e-bike for someone who primarily rides on the roads

Do You think of 2.8 in is probably the best of both worlds?

Honestly I might even want to go with like a 3.2 but they just don't make the real high-end tires in that width

If anyone knows this different let me know?



Maybe That'll change.

 

[tomjasz]

You just don't have those issues on a good ebike

So we own a less efficient bike just throw a motor on. OK. as Marty said “ We can't generalize either direction, only share our own perspectives and experiences.”

 

[theemartymac]

what would you recommend for an e-bike for someone who primarily rides on the roads

Do You think of 2.8 in is probably the best of both worlds?

Honestly I might even want to go with like a 3.2 but they just don't make the real high-end tires in that width

If anyone knows this different let me know?



Maybe That'll change.

I don't have enough experience with plus sized road tires to give an opinion, but I bought my mother an old iZip ebike with 2" x 24" road tires, and it is quite a nice ride. More inherent vibration than the fat tires for sure, but not at all unreasonable. I can't knock that size on the asphalt in the least, and it's still nimble enough for the city and shared sidewalks. BUT, my fat tires don't feel that different for rolling resistance when kept at or over 20psi, and I can't say the 2" is overly superior in that regard. I can say that my 65yr old mother cannot hand pump 40-50 psi into her tire if she got low, but she could hand pump 10-15 psi into say a 20" x 3.5" fat tire. And without any form of suspension, her bike does give her numb wrists if she rides too long, and adding a springer seat helped her bum range too. I ride her bike periodically during maintenance jobs, and I can say I would not hit the potholes and curb transitions that I do with mine, and i would not trust it to corner nearly as well in any form of sandy or slippery condition either. When the fat tire loses traction in a fast corner, it is progressive and can be recovered pretty easily. When the skinny tire loses traction, it is sudden and often total unless you are on your game.

I actually do plan to try a 3" street tire on my hub bike for fun. Not because I don't like the 4" tires, but just to see how much difference in range/handling/rideability there actually is. I reserve that bike for city riding and loaner duty anyway, so it will be fun to see the results, and it may live that way permanently. We'll see...

 

[Cmulv]

So we own a less efficient bike just throw a motor on. OK. as Marty said “ We can't generalize either direction, only share our

So we own a less efficient bike just throw a motor on. OK. as Marty said “ We can't generalize either direction, only share our own perspectives and experiences.”

Well this is a forum discussing all electric bikes right?

Most Electric bikes weigh 60 pounds on average,

So We're already talkin about bikes that are not going to be nearly as efficient as it 16 or 17 pound road bike

I've Already explained the reason in tires are so coveted on road bikes is because you have a huge difference in acceleration and speed on a very light bike

Once you put a big motor and a big battery on a bike and it weighs around 60 lb a small difference in tire size is going to mean very little in terms of speed and efficiency

I guarantee you 2.8 in Schwalbe G one tires are faster and more efficient than 90% of the 1.75 inch tires that are manufactured

What kind of tires do you ride??

Anyway I've explained it about three or four times already that the increase in comfort and grip and safety is exponential any slight decrease in efficiency and speed is almost negligible

So for the last time can you explain to me why you would not want a exponential increase in grip comfort and safety, and a negligible difference in efficiency and speed

The Only answer is simply your stuck in your ways and you've adopted a religious like adherence to your position

It's not an rational argument. If you've already added 20 lb in motor and Battery to a bicycle adding a couple ounces to your tires is meaningless

 

[Cmulv]

Well this is a forum discussing electric bikes right?

Most Electric bikes weigh 60 pounds on average,

So We're already talkin about bikes that are not going to be nearly as efficient as it 16 or 17 pound road bike

I've Already explained the reason thin tires are so coveted on road bikes is because you have a huge difference in acceleration and speed on a very light bike

Once you put a big motor and a big battery on a bike and it weighs around 60 lb a small difference in tire size is going to mean very little in terms of speed and efficiency

I guarantee you 2.8 in Schwalbe G one tires are faster and more efficient than 90% of the 1.75 inch tires that are manufactured

What kind of tires do you ride??

Anyway I've explained it about three or four times already that the increase in comfort and grip and safety is exponential, and any slight decrease in efficiency and speed is almost negligible

So for the last time can you explain to me why you would not want a exponential increase in grip comfort and safety, and a negligible difference in efficiency and speed?

It's not an rational argument. If you've already added 20 lb in motor and Battery to a bicycle adding a couple ounces to your tires is meaningless

 

[tomjasz]

I tried 2.5” maxxis hookworms

TB74255100

26X2.50

63-559

60

WIRE

1,125

SINGLE

65

NA

Black

URBAN

and went back to Kenda 1.95” moving to wider tires can be an adventure on rims sized for 1.95. Not keeping on top of pressure makes for adventure when the tire rolls off the rim. FWIW

 

[tomjasz]

So for the last time can you explain to me why you would not want a exponential increase in grip comfort and safety, and a negligible difference in efficiency and speed

In my experience that’s just not so. Let’s agree to have ap posing views. For the last time, Not problem for
me.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

From what cmulv wrote, I can see he has very little or none experience with e-bikes.

• 60-70 lbs e-bike? Tell me more. The heaviest of 3 e-bikes I own weighs 53 lbs.
• Schwalbe G-One? There is only one wheel size that comes in 2.8" tire: 27.5". The tire is lightweight only in tubeless setup. Not only G-One 27.5x2.8" is unavailable: Most of G-Ones come in sizes from 35 mm to 2.2", and these are expected to be setup tubeless. Good luck. (These are gravel-bike, not general use tires). Add the inner tube and all benefits of G-One are gone.
• Most of MTB tires end up at 27.5x2.6" size. Look up Maxxis, the world leader in MTB tubeless tires. 29" wheels won't accept more than 2.2" as the typical value.

Bigger tires = heavier tires. Bigger tires = more of rolling resistance. You cannot cheat the laws of physics.

Bad roads? Oh my. Trail or Enduro MTBers ride the most gnarly trails on 2.6" tires. They actually bomb downhill. If they used fat tires, their MTBs would become completely stiff on taking tight corners. Fat tires are for riding morass or deep snow (another American misconception of fat tire use).

So you say American roads are so hopeless. What about gnarly trails in Poland? On 27.5x2.6" tyres?

The key to a smooth ride is a suspension. Front suspension fork is enough, and 1.6" tyres are sufficient for even very bad roads.

As far as I know, this suspension fork has been made in the United States of America, so suspension forks should not be foreign to America.

Specialized: American brand, Swiss design, Taiwanese make. No suspension whatsoever, 1.75" tires. Are roads in America worse than this trail?!

Anyone really interested in cycling knows "gravel-biking" involves constant switching of the ride between paved, gravel, and dirt roads. Gravel cyclists ride on no suspension road-alike bikes, and often on 38mm tires. Oh, those rough American roads! (I will weep in a second)

And as for Stefan's comment about fat tire bike not being the 'best way to go', I don't think you can make that comment unless you live here and experience things from our perspective. We also drive far more pickup trucks and SUV's, drag giant travel trailers around, and drive all manner of ATV and off road vehicle too. Canada and the US are very big spaces with much more rural and undeveloped areas, we require more expense and effort in our transportation sectors, and utility equipment is the norm for many of us

@theemartymac: So you say $2000 e-bike is a SUV in the U.S.?

The American misconception is the 20" folder equipped with a throttle, baloon tires, and 750+ W motor is the right type of the e-bike. Regardless of the wheel size. Pull the throttle and you can move that heavy e-bike at intersection at all. Ride without pedalling - is it a bike? "Ghost pedal" only to activate the PAS. You're not cycling. You are motorbiking. I cannot be convinced that it is cycling.

Ah. The automatic transmission. Perhaps it is the reason so many Americans wonder what the derailleur is for

 

[Cmulv]

I tried 2.5” maxxis hookworms

TB74255100

26X2.50

63-559

60

WIRE

1,125

SINGLE

65

NA

Black

URBAN

and went back to Kenda 1.95” moving to wider tires can be an adventure on rims sized for 1.95. Not keeping on top of pressure makes for adventure when the tire rolls off the rim. FWIW

That's what I said your bike isn't designed for those tires so you're ruling them out

Obviously If you have proper rims the tires won't slip off

I can say my 1995 Honda is faster than my neighbors Ferrari, and when he challenges me I can just say listen let's agree to disagree you have your opinion I have my opinion

But facts are facts sometimes

If you're happy with what you got that's great, but it's simply a fact that you will get a big increase in grip and ride comfort with only giving up minimal decreases in efficiency and speed

And in this case you are actually gain efficiency and speed because Schwalbe G ones are more efficient and faster even at 2.8 in than kenda's

 

[Cmulv]

From what cmulv wrote, I can see he has very little or none experience with e-bikes.

• 60-70 lbs e-bike? Tell me more. The heaviest of 3 e-bikes I own weighs 53 lbs.
• Schwalbe G-One? There is only one wheel size that comes in 2.8" tire: 27.5". The tire is lightweight only in tubeless setup. Not only G-One 27.5x2.8" is unavailable: Most of G-Ones come in sizes from 35 mm to 2.2", and these are expected to be setup tubeless. Good luck. (These are gravel-bike, not general use tires). Add the inner tube and all benefits of G-One are gone.
• Most of MTB tires end up at 27.5x2.6" size. Look up Maxxis, the world leader in MTB tubeless tires. 29" wheels won't accept more than 2.2" as the typical value.

Bigger tires = heavier tires. Bigger tires = more of rolling resistance. You cannot cheat the laws of physics.

Bad roads? Oh my. Trail or Enduro MTBers ride the most gnarly trails on 2.6" tires. They actually bomb downhill. If they used fat tires, their MTBs would become completely stiff on taking tight corners. Fat tires are for riding morass or deep snow (another American misconception of fat tire use).

View attachment 84903
So you say American roads are so hopeless. What about gnarly trails in Poland? On 27.5x2.6" tyres?

The key to a smooth ride is a suspension. Front suspension fork is enough, and 1.6" tyres are sufficient for even very bad roads.

View attachment 84904
As far as I know, this suspension fork has been made in the United States of America, so suspension forks should not be foreign to America.

View attachment 84905
Specialized: American brand, Swiss design, Taiwanese make. No suspension whatsoever, 1.75" tires. Are roads in America worse than this trail?!

Anyone really interested in cycling knows "gravel-biking" involves constant switching of the ride between paved, gravel, and dirt roads. Gravel cyclists ride on no suspension road-alike bikes, and often on 38mm tires. Oh, those rough American roads! (I will weep in a second)



The American misconception is the 20" folder equipped with a throttle, baloon tires, and 750+ W motor is the right type of the e-bike. Regardless of the wheel size. Pull the throttle and you can move that heavy e-bike at intersection at all. Ride without pedalling - is it a bike? "Ghost pedal" only to activate the PAS. You're not cycling. You are motorbiking. I cannot be convinced that it is cycling.

Ah. The automatic transmission. Perhaps it is the reason so many Americans wonder what the derailleur is for

You're just proving my point!

Your real argument is that you can not get top quality wider tires so you're just going to argue for your thinner tires

The increase in grip and comfort is exponential!!

The decrease in speed and range is negligible!!

Let me say that again


The increase in grip and comfort is exponential!!

The decrease in speed and range is negligible!!

not sure why you can't understand this simple point and just aadmit availability and selection and that your bike can not accommodate them is your real argument

 

[Stefan Mikes]

How many miles did you ride on e-bike, Cmulv?

 

[Cmulv]

How many miles did you ride on e-bike, Cmulv?

I probably ridden about 10000 miles and I've had my e-bike for 5 years

And to compare a trail ride to a a street ride with many potholes and cracks is silly

What happens is on a street ride you get up to speed and then all of a sudden you hit a big pothole, or you go over rough pavement, cracks, debris, rocks. It's riding at speed and then sudden jolts

It's Very different than specifically going out to ride on a trail and having a more continuous and expected experience

I Guarantee you 95% of people would prefer wider cushy tires when they're riding an electric bike on poorly maintained roads, especially a hub motor

For Other circumstances you might want different things

 

[theemartymac]

I love the series these guys did on fat bikes a few years back. If you watch them all, it's hard to come out confidently saying there is a dramatic or definitive difference between fat and standard MTB tires at all. It is much more situational, riding style, and personal preference than many riders would care to admit. Obviously these guys are not testing Ebikes, but the general tire and traction performance as well as the speed comparisons stand and can be somewhat translated to the ebike world. (Spoiler alert: Fat tires are not that far behind the standard MTBs in most areas, and excel in several.)

https://www.youtube.com/c/gmbn/search?query=fat%20bike

And a good one to start with.

 

[Cmulv]

I love the series these guys did on fat bikes a few years back. If you watch them all, it's hard to come out confidently saying there is a dramatic or definitive difference between fat and standard MTB tires at all. It is much more situational, riding style, and personal preference than many riders would care to admit. Obviously these guys are not testing Ebikes, but the general tire and traction performance as well as the speed comparisons stand and can be somewhat translated to the ebike world. (Spoiler alert: Fat tires are not that far behind the standard MTBs in most areas, and excel in several.)

https://www.youtube.com/c/gmbn/search?query=fat%20bike

And a good one to start with.

still trying to figure out what the sweet spot is for an electric bike being ridden primarily on the street

Like What are the points where the trade-off between float and cushioning , maneuverability, speed and efficiency, really become noticeable

I Still think the bike industry hasn't really caught up with the change that electric bikes have made

I think the best for riding on the roads and feeling like you can take on anything that comes your way like potholes, would probably be around 3 to 3.5 in, with still feeling pretty maneuverable and not losing too much in efficiency

The thing is no bikes are really made for that size, everything is pretty much either a fat bike or like 2.5 inch mountain bike or 2 inch Cruiser

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I probably ridden about 10000 miles and I've had my e-bike for 5 years

I've ridden 5000 miles on e-bikes only in 2020. Owning three different to have better understanding between mid-drive commuter, mid-drive MTB, and hub-drive touring e-bikes.

 

[AHicks]

Cmulv, late to the party, but I've been spending some time messing with tire sizes/types on a couple of e-bikes. They are both riden as on/off road hybrids, with the majority of time spent on road (80 on vs. 20 off?). I spend a lot of time in an area with rolling coastal hills, some of which are pretty good sized. Like Marty, I have the same Ultra powered Rize RX Pro fatty he does. I also have a custom 1000w+ MAC 12t powered RAD City w/35a controller (geared hub drive). Both are torque monsters, and both have throttles. I would NOT be without a throttle (spoiled). Both are great bikes in their own respect, but clearly, the hub drive is easier to ride.

The fatty has had 26x4 knobbies on it (OEM, noisy on road), 26x4 pavement tires (that taught me about "self steering"), and 26x3 tires, which have worked out best to date. I am now on the hunt for 27.5 wheels to fit the fatty, which has proven quite the challenge. Once found, or parts collected to reach that objective, I plan on using the Schwalbe 2.4-2.8 tires you seem to prefer. I plan on 36-40mm rim width.

The RAD City came with 26x2.3 semi knobby tires on it (noisy on road), which were replaced by Schwalbe 26x2.0 Marathons. These were nice tires, but the ride produced is like a roller skate on a brick road (harsh!). My impression is that's due to sidewalls that don't have enough "give" (way too stiff). Recently, those tires were removed and a set of 26x2.4 Shwalbe Super Moto-X tires installed. A VERY noticeable difference in ride observed, without the expected big increase in rolling resistance as compared to the Marathons.

So, my point is, that I'm finding that these "mid range" tires (2.4-2.8"?) , mounted on mid width rims, do seem to work REALLY well when searching for an on road ride vs. rolling resistance compromise (my goal!). -Al

 

[tomjasz]

That's what I said your bike isn't designed for those tires so you're ruling them out

Obviously If you have proper rims the tires won't slip off

It's “roll off” and I actually like the profile on a too narrow rim. PSI is critical. I’ve kitted bikes from 1.25“ tires to 5”. I prefer 1.95-2.00