Mechanical brakes vs Hydraulic brakes

tomjasz said:
No mountains and no more fast bikes. I’m Golden. Having tested my rim brakes on an MSF course I’m well within safe and sane breaking distances. Add 60 years of adjusting cables nearly weekly when riding high mileage makes the adjustment about as hard as brushing my teeth.
I’m happy to read class 3 bikes tend to have quality hydraulic brakes. Frankly my opinion of sub $2000 factory direct bikes with hydraulic brakes are mediocre in the long term. Lots here are weekend and holiday fair weather riders and as such avoid the early issues high mileage riders would probably experience.
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That was actually something that concerned me about a lot of the DTC class 3 bikes. Never rode one but the specs online don't look like they had the level of brakes, tires, suspension, etc. needed to run at 30mph. Maybe that's why few on here seem to ride at class 3 speeds very much ?
 
Art Deco said:
That was actually something that concerned me about a lot of the DTC class 3 bikes. Never rode one but the specs online don't look like they had the level of brakes, tires, suspension, etc. needed to run at 30mph. Maybe that's why few on here seem to ride at class 3 speeds very much ?
Click to expand...
I agree. I had an HD Bafang mid-drive with speed rated tires and 180 hydro discs that was built for speed. After the initial thrill it became dumb. It ate the chain and cassette by week three. That motor went to a disabled guy who cannot pedal and I upgraded the bike by installing a much smaller/lighter motor and battery. Handling was vastly improved. The bike became fun in a sustainable daily way and not a thrill ride. I can still do 30 on a flat but bikes are not really made for that. 21 is good top end, 24 is fast. I removed the hydro and installed a gravelbar with Avid mechanical brakes for low maintenance. The hydro went to a fair weather rider who was thrilled. I can just twist an adjuster one click when needed.
 
PedalUma said:
I agree. I had an HD Bafang mid-drive with speed rated tires and 180 hydro discs that was built for speed. After the initial thrill it became dumb. It ate the chain and cassette by week three. That motor went to a disabled guy who cannot pedal and I upgraded the bike by installing a much smaller/lighter motor and battery. Handling was vastly improved. The bike became fun in a sustainable daily way and not a thrill ride. I can still do 30 on a flat but bikes are not really made for that. 21 is good top end, 24 is fast. I removed the hydro and installed a gravelbar with Avid mechanical brakes for low maintenance. The hydro went to a fair weather rider who was thrilled. I can just twist an adjuster one click when needed.
Click to expand...
I've read this thread from beginning to end, and am VERY appreciative of all the experience and viewpoints shared. My new build, from a Trek Verve 2 (2019) to a Bafang 500 mid was mostly carefree and performs better than expected--- except the brakes. Because I thought I needed switches on the brakes, and could not find a solid, acceptable, spots for tape on or glue on sensor adapters for the Shimano "M275" handles, I traded them for Bafang handles and wire fed hydraulics (the zoom Etech hb-100, which barely fit.) Now I have the safety feature of brake switches, but aching hands. The brakes will not lock up without a LOT of pull. And every use seems a *lot* more work, compared to the stock Shimano hydraulics. So I am wondering... Should I go back to my reliable hydraulics, and go without brake switches? Do I just have poor quality line-pull hydraulics? Maybe with this build, for commuting and hike/bike trails, can I safely go without brake switches? It is a delimma for me, and for my second build, for my spouse. Thoughts?
 
Bruce (Trek Verve Build) said:
I've read this thread from beginning to end, and am VERY appreciative of all the experience and viewpoints shared. My new build, from a Trek Verve 2 (2019) to a Bafang 500 mid was mostly carefree and performs better than expected--- except the brakes. Because I thought I needed switches on the brakes, and could not find a solid, acceptable, spots for tape on or glue on sensor adapters for the Shimano "M275" handles, I traded them for Bafang handles and wire fed hydraulics (the zoom Etech hb-100, which barely fit.) Now I have the safety feature of brake switches, but aching hands. The brakes will not lock up without a LOT of pull. And every use seems a *lot* more work, compared to the stock Shimano hydraulics. So I am wondering... Should I go back to my reliable hydraulics, and go without brake switches? Do I just have poor quality line-pull hydraulics? Maybe with this build, for commuting and hike/bike trails, can I safely go without brake switches? It is a delimma for me, and for my second build, for my spouse. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Use cutoffs with that system. It's a feature you should have and one the system manufacturer included for a reason.

This one should work and is only $90

Hydraulic Brake Set Kits Power Cut Off Electric Bike Brake with 160mm Disc Brake Rotors for BAFANG BBS BBSHD Mid Drive Motor https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0838X8GC...abc_7CH8MCFRBBFSHT3HJ7PG?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Tektro also makes pretty good systems, that are mostly designed to copy Shimano. Some of their systems actually use Shimano pads.

TEKTRO BRAKE SYSTEMS - Products

TEKTRO BRAKE SYSTEMS - Product, Disc, Brake, Lever, Disc Pads, Brake Pads, Accessories, MTB Road, Cyclocross, TT / Triathlon, Recreation, BMX, E-Bike.
www.tektro.com www.tektro.com

There are others on their site.
 
Last edited:
Bruce (Trek Verve Build) said:
I've read this thread from beginning to end, and am VERY appreciative of all the experience and viewpoints shared. My new build, from a Trek Verve 2 (2019) to a Bafang 500 mid was mostly carefree and performs better than expected--- except the brakes. Because I thought I needed switches on the brakes, and could not find a solid, acceptable, spots for tape on or glue on sensor adapters for the Shimano "M275" handles, I traded them for Bafang handles and wire fed hydraulics (the zoom Etech hb-100, which barely fit.) Now I have the safety feature of brake switches, but aching hands. The brakes will not lock up without a LOT of pull. And every use seems a *lot* more work, compared to the stock Shimano hydraulics. So I am wondering... Should I go back to my reliable hydraulics, and go without brake switches? Do I just have poor quality line-pull hydraulics? Maybe with this build, for commuting and hike/bike trails, can I safely go without brake switches? It is a delimma for me, and for my second build, for my spouse. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I'm interested in this question too since I'm deciding whether to set up a drop-bar build I'm doing with brake switches or not. I read comments on EBR from riders with experience building e-bikes they do not find brake switches necessary nor use them.

An extra question that may only apply to a few builds is that since mine uses a GMAC hub and PAS, I may need the brake switches to initiate the regen braking?

To Bruce's question about his Trek Verve build, I'd say you can't forgo safe brakes and if what you have is less safe, even with switches, if it were me, I'd put back on the Shimano hydraulics that you liked. If your line-pull hydraulics refers to cable pull lever operating hydraulic calipers like the TRP HyRd or JuinTec, then yes there are compatibility issues with some levers and there are set-up methods that provide good braking, but it takes some sussing out. That's why the full hydro set you had can be such an advantage--it's hard to go wrong. I have bikes with cable-pull hydros TRP HyRd providing excellent braking with different lever types, but it required careful choosing and some set-up adjustment. Some levers will set up perfectly out of the box, some will set up perfectly once adjusted, and some levers will just have the wrong cable pull geometry for the hydo levers and will never set up well. The process of needing to know this and work it out is a drawback of cable-pull hydros, no doubt.
 
stw said:
I read comments on EBR from riders with experience building e-bikes they do not find brake switches necessary nor use them.
Click to expand...
A very small number of DIY builders don't use them. Sensible builders and a majority of builders do use the cutouts. Some firmware versions will not run without them.
 
J.R. said:
Use cutoffs with that system. It's a feature you should have and one the system manufacturer included for a reason.

This one should work and is only $90

Hydraulic Brake Set Kits Power Cut Off Electric Bike Brake with 160mm Disc Brake Rotors for BAFANG BBS BBSHD Mid Drive Motor https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0838X8GC...abc_7CH8MCFRBBFSHT3HJ7PG?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Tektro also makes pretty good systems, that are mostly designed to copy Shimano. Some of their systems actually use Shimano pads.

TEKTRO BRAKE SYSTEMS - Products

TEKTRO BRAKE SYSTEMS - Product, Disc, Brake, Lever, Disc Pads, Brake Pads, Accessories, MTB Road, Cyclocross, TT / Triathlon, Recreation, BMX, E-Bike.
www.tektro.com www.tektro.com

There are others on their site.
Click to expand...
Thanks, J.R. Do you (or does anyone) have any direct experience with the hydraulic/cutoff https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0838X8GC...abc_7CH8MCFRBBFSHT3HJ7PG?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
 
stw said:
I'm interested in this question too since I'm deciding whether to set up a drop-bar build I'm doing with brake switches or not. I read comments on EBR from riders with experience building e-bikes they do not find brake switches necessary nor use them.

An extra question that may only apply to a few builds is that since mine uses a GMAC hub and PAS, I may need the brake switches to initiate the regen braking?

To Bruce's question about his Trek Verve build, I'd say you can't forgo safe brakes and if what you have is less safe, even with switches, if it were me, I'd put back on the Shimano hydraulics that you liked. If your line-pull hydraulics refers to cable pull lever operating hydraulic calipers like the TRP HyRd or JuinTec, then yes there are compatibility issues with some levers and there are set-up methods that provide good braking, but it takes some sussing out. That's why the full hydro set you had can be such an advantage--it's hard to go wrong. I have bikes with cable-pull hydros TRP HyRd providing excellent braking with different lever types, but it required careful choosing and some set-up adjustment. Some levers will set up perfectly out of the box, some will set up perfectly once adjusted, and some levers will just have the wrong cable pull geometry for the hydo levers and will never set up well. The process of needing to know this and work it out is a drawback of cable-pull hydros, no doubt.
Click to expand...
Ah, it is so valuable to hear experience. I had not even thought about the geometry of my new line-pull-hydraulic system! I have some tinkering to do before making a decision. Cheers, ~ Bruce
 
Bruce (Trek Verve Build) said:
Thanks, J.R. Do you (or does anyone) have any direct experience with the hydraulic/cutoff https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0838X8GC...abc_7CH8MCFRBBFSHT3HJ7PG?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
Click to expand...
an option:
Grin Tech offers cut-off switches that can be added to any levers and use the mechanical operation of the levers. According to the video instructions on the Grin Tech site, they are an independent product that Grin Tech makes available for adapting levers without a built-in cut-off.

They offer two different types, one with a pull switch and one with a push switch, and the photos and video show how they set up on flat bar levers straightforwardly. I'm using drop bars so I have to work out how mine will be connected to the levers.
 
stw said:
an option:
Grin Tech offers cut-off switches that can be added to any levers and use the mechanical operation of the levers. According to the video instructions on the Grin Tech site, they are an independent product that Grin Tech makes available for adapting levers without a built-in cut-off.

They offer two different types, one with a pull switch and one with a push switch, and the photos and video show how they set up on flat bar levers straightforwardly. I'm using drop bars so I have to work out how mine will be connected to the levers.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tip! VERY interesting concept. But at $80/pair, I think I will continue to look at other alternatives.
 
As a big guy who rides hard and fast on my commuter (Bafang Ultra), I feel it's worth adding that you shouldn't evaluate your stopping needs based solely on your daily/typical ride. Think of the worst case you are likely to encounter, and test your brakes there. My single-piston Tektro hydraulic brakes are completely adequate for daily riding, but when I've loaded up my rack and let my speed get high on a long downhill, I'll easily admit that I'm under-powered. In that case I cannot lock them up at all, and my stopping distances are much longer than they should be. Add significant heat to that equation during extended downhill rides, and the performance gets quite dismal and I'll even hit the grips with the levers at the worst of times. I have some old Hayes 9 brakes with 220 rotors on my 'antique' Norco DH bike (acoustic), and I can stop that with one finger, from any speed, and almost regardless of heat.

My near-future plans are to swap the Tektro calipers out for some 4-piston units to make sure I have MORE than adequate braking capability. The side benefit as others have mentioned is that over spec'ing your brakes a little can also improve the feel and feedback significantly, and allow for much better brake modulation and fade management. To a point... Most other riders that aren't 300lbs and running at high assist all the time will be suited fine with something much less than that. :)
 
stw said:
I read comments on EBR from riders with experience building e-bikes they do not find brake switches necessary nor use them.
Click to expand...
I have done without myself on a couple of bikes. The reality is a) your brakes should always overpower your motor (be able to stop it when its going full tilt) and b) if you are largely a pedaler and not a throttler the need for cutoffs is dialed way back. But its not zero. About a week ago, I came to a stop at an intersection and my bike surged forward when I released the brakes and stood up. "Huh" says I as I re-squeezed the lever and stopped it. Before the light turned green I gripped and released the brake, watching the cutoff signal on the display trigger, and realized whoops my throttle had stuck partially open. A quick flip and fixed. This was an academic exercise almost. An exercise in curiosity. I had cutoffs so no danger or inconvenience. Without cutoffs I'd have to muscle the lever and be a whole lot more concerned about it. They are a small thing but if you are smart you give yourself the benefit for the rare occasion having them pays off.

The guys who do without the cutoffs are the ones who lack the depth of experience to realize there are edge cases where its worth having them.

On another note, regarding fluid and bubbles: Hydros that use DOT fluid DO absorb moisture. The systems may be 'sealed' but that term is in air quotes on purpose. No braking system is truly sealed from the atmosphere and since DOT fluid is by its nature hygroscopic, it WILL absorb moisture slowly over time (roughly a year until it saturates).

But... does that matter on an ebike? Of that I'm not sure. The point of not wanting water mixed into the fluid is because water boils at a lower temp than DOT fluid does. Boiling water creates bubbles and gas bubbles compress, while fluid is incompressible. So on a race car bubbles mean a mushy pedal that sinks to the floor. On a bike its a lever that touches the handlebars. Neither of them fully engage the brakes and trust me... heading into a hairpin at 100 mph and feeling your pedal sink to the floor after the last turn cooked the brakes is a REALLY sucky feeling.

So ... does an ebike boil the fluid in the calipers? If it doesn't you can have all the water you want in there (not really but you get the idea) because water is not the actual problem. Its not an experiment I want to perform so I avoid this issue by using hydros that use mineral oil for fluid. Lower boiling point, but also not hygroscopic and not corrosive to paint. Also I've never boiled it despite using the behemoths I ride around at Class 3+ speeds (which is what makes me wonder how many folks have a boiling risk to start with).

As to hydro vs. mech: Both will stop the bike just fine. Hydros have no maintenance until you change the pads, assuming you choose a high quality system. Mineral oil eliminates any possibility of bubbles apparently, since I have never seen any, ever on any of my bikes. I have over the years had to re-bleed a caliper or three. But only a few and its rare. Cheap brakes: all bets are off. Last bike I bought with mech brakes was a cargo mid tail and the mfr did not use compressionless housing on the cables. So the rear brakes (long cable with a couple extra bends) were effectively worthless even after subbing in Avid BB7's. Wasn't worth the continued hassle and I put on a set of my favorite hydros in a half hour and its been untouched other than to use the levers ever since.
 
m@Robertson said:
I have done without myself on a couple of bikes. The reality is a) your brakes should always overpower your motor (be able to stop it when its going full tilt) and b) if you are largely a pedaler and not a throttler the need for cutoffs is dialed way back. But its not zero. About a week ago, I came to a stop at an intersection and my bike surged forward when I released the brakes and stood up. "Huh" says I as I re-squeezed the lever and stopped it. Before the light turned green I gripped and released the brake, watching the cutoff signal on the display trigger, and realized whoops my throttle had stuck partially open. A quick flip and fixed. This was an academic exercise almost. An exercise in curiosity. I had cutoffs so no danger or inconvenience. Without cutoffs I'd have to muscle the lever and be a whole lot more concerned about it. They are a small thing but if you are smart you give yourself the benefit for the rare occasion having them pays off.

The guys who do without the cutoffs are the ones who lack the depth of experience to realize there are edge cases where its worth having them.
Click to expand...
You bring up an excellent reason for brake cutoffs with the stuck throttle scenario.

I have only run with one bike that had brake cutoffs(Juiced CCX) and it pissed me off everytime it happened. That bike didnt have the best controller and would sometimes lurch as I moved the pedals slightly when stopped and not sitting on the seat. After that happened I always kept the brakes applied when stopped. The lurching was only really scary when I was off the seat with my feet on the ground.

I like having the brakes decoupling from motor power on all the DIY ebikes I have owned (TSDZ2, GMAC, BBSHD). I use just a touch of brakes(both front and back or both) all the time in all sorts of situations while the motor is still running. Maybe I just want to settle the bike a bit while still powered and dont want to go thru the whole motor off/back on scenario. It also helps tame some of the issues you can have using cadence based PAS in technical terrain.

I also dont run switches which cut the power when I shift.

I have actually had the throttle stick before and it was no biggie. I noticed it when I stopped and could hear the motor struggling and I simply blipped the throttle. The thing is when I slow down and stop, my fingers never stop holding down the brake levers. As Im ready to take off and get back on the bike I am actually preloading the pedals just before I release the brakes so a slightly stuck throttle probably wouldnt even be noticed as the throttle rampup on all my bikes seems really timid. Im usually in a high enough gear anyway that the BBSHD wouldnt just take off.

I have considered adding a switch/button cutout for emergency use but in all likelyhood, I wouldnt instinctively use it so I question its value. If stuck throttle actually ever became an issue, I would just remove the throttle.

Neither of my Brose mid drive ebikes use brake or shift cutouts either

By no means am I recommending people not use brake cutouts but I prefer to not have them.
 
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stw said:
an option:
Grin Tech offers cut-off switches that can be added to any levers and use the mechanical operation of the levers. According to the video instructions on the Grin Tech site, they are an independent product that Grin Tech makes available for adapting levers without a built-in cut-off.

They offer two different types, one with a pull switch and one with a push switch, and the photos and video show how they set up on flat bar levers straightforwardly. I'm using drop bars so I have to work out how mine will be connected to the levers.
Click to expand...
Hydraulic brake sensors. A popular choice enabling you to use your current levers.
 
linklemming said:
Neither of my Brose mid drive ebikes use brake or shift cutouts
Click to expand...
Cadence sensor bikes with some lag and all throttle bikes, including torque sensor throttle bikes are safer with cutout levers. All front hub-motor bikes should have them. The Brose is a torque sensor bike. Very nice. Smooth. There is no power when not pedaling and no lag, so cutouts are not needed on this type of system.
 
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