Luna Z1 - First impressions

Z1 vs Apollo; has anyone tried both? I was intending my Z1 hold me over until the Apollo because available again, but the Z1 in itself is fairly impressive and perhaps almost as good? Best I can tell, Z1 is a couple of pounds heavier, perhaps not quite as refined. but same motor, same or similar components, the big difference being a USA made frame, and that amazing 52v21aH battery. Sure would be nice if someone knew both and could compare.
 
Funny as it sounds derailerhanger.com is legit. They can make copies of what you need. get it before you need it. Got (3) for mine and they match up fine, hopefully I won't need them but cheap insurance.
 
They have a bunch on Amazon that are generic and very good. You are not paying for a logo but can put on a sticker if it makes you feel better. 11-42 is all I need and I have big hills in the SF Coastal North Bay. Narrow chains cut into cogs like a saw. Swapping to a nine speed helped a lot. This one is $32. I have had it on one of my bikes since last February. I will swap it this coming February.
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Nice, I was thinking of running something like this if I get a Z1 anytime soon. It would be nice if Luna offered this an an option when ordering as it could save some costs buying this pre-installed vs replacing it later. Also, what chain did you end up using that's thicker?
 
Nice, I was thinking of running something like this if I get a Z1 anytime soon. It would be nice if Luna offered this an an option when ordering as it could save some costs buying this pre-installed vs replacing it later. Also, what chain did you end up using that's thicker?
My Chisel was an 11-speed. I made it a nine. 9-speeds are thicker, or wider and they cost less. I like the KMX X9 chains. Here are a couple of Christmas Luna X2s. I made hers with a more comfortable cockpit and saddle. I might upgrade their drivetrains to 9-speeds when they eat the first cassette. That can happen very quickly on these bikes. Here is also a photo of where I ride. If you want to view custom builds see PedalUma.com for some ideas.
 

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Z1 vs Apollo; has anyone tried both? I was intending my Z1 hold me over until the Apollo because available again, but the Z1 in itself is fairly impressive and perhaps almost as good? Best I can tell, Z1 is a couple of pounds heavier, perhaps not quite as refined. but same motor, same or similar components, the big difference being a USA made frame, and that amazing 52v21aH battery. Sure would be nice if someone knew both and could compare.
I have not tried both, but i did have an Apollo, and now have a X2.

IMO (i am a total newbie to MTB/EMTB, and i hadn't been on a bike for probably 20 years prior to buying the Apollo, so take it for what its worth), Apollo vs Z1 depends on what your looking to do with the bike. the Apollo is a sexy ass bike! i think if you are looking for a commuting or touring type bike it would be prefect, especially with that big ass 1100wh battery, but it does not excel in trail riding IMHO. i have test rode the Levo, Orbea Wild, and Trek Rail and the Apollo in PAS 1 felt like turbo in the previous 3 bikes. In particular i found turning while going up hill to be a bit tricky, when the motor kicks in it KICKS in, i almost ate it more than once because of the power of the motor in PAS 1.

I also didn't feel the PAS on the Apollo to be very smooth, and the motor was SUPER loud, and that battery was just not stealthy at all...but man was it fun if you are looking for pure power it will put a smile on your face! I am 6'5" ~290lbs and the Apollo would do 30 MPH+ on flat pavement throttle only, no peddling, with ease! i would bet a lighter rider could get it to 35-40MPH no sweat.

my main goal with getting a EMTB was to get out and ride my local trails and try and get some exercise. as i mentioned the Apollo in PAS 1 was super powerful, i rarely ever needed to go above PAS 1, and so i didn't feel i was getting much 'exercise' while out on the trail, so i ended up selling it. i also felt it didnt fit me too well, i had the XL Apollo and i measured the reach to be only about 460mm, so it was pretty cramped for me.

i now have a X2 with Ludi V2 and it is everything i wanted! the motor/PAS is super smooth, the motor is super quite and i have been having a blast riding in my local trails. im usually in PAS 1 or 2, and bump it up to 3 or 4 on steep hills, where PAS 1 on the Apollo was enough power to tackle just about any hill i have faced so far. Luna was not offering the XL Fame so the L was the only option. The L X2 is definitely too small for me, but i have a XL E10 inbound from china and plan to swap all the bits from the X2 to the E10.

I think the Z1 frame is more similar in geometry to the X2 than the Apollo, and im finding riding my local trails and going up and down hill on the X2 is noticeably more confidence inspiring than the Apollo was...so i think the geometry of the Z1 will make it a better trail bike if that is your main goal. I also like that the battery is more stealthier on the Z1, and easier to get to (taking off the Apollo battery was a bit of a pain), and the battery will likely be easier to replace from Bafang if you ever needed to.

I also think spare and aftermarket parts for the Z1 will be easier to get down the line than the for the Apollo. The Apollo is a bit of a bespoke bike and you will have to rely on Luna for parts, where the Z1 is built on the Dengfu E22 frame, and there is Wattwagons in the US and a couple other companies abroad also offering E22 based bikes. So i think spare parts from Denfgu will be more accessible, and perhaps if there is a big enough market for E22 based bikes, there could also be aftermarket parts/accessories available for the Z1 too.

So my take is Apollo if you want a sexy ass bespoke E-bike for Commuting/Touring, and Z1 if you want a stealthier and slightly more mainstream E-bike for mainly trail riding.


The X2 is also a awesome bike to consider, it has great geometry and is plenty powerful if you just want to go trail riding (as i mentioned im a big guy and it gets me up everything ive faced so far with ease)...but the throttle feels more like a toy vs the throttle on the Apollo, i don't really foresee using the throttle on the X2 much if at all, where the throttle on the Apollo was a super fun when all you wanted was power and a grin on your face!

...hmmm, now thinking I may have to also get a Z1 down the road, lol :p

Hope this helps!
 
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I run my throttle on my Z1 on the right side and after seeing the possibility of a narrower format one made over in Polska I contacted the maker and got him to send me some. Biggest difference for my needs is that they are 5/8" narrower than stock and are also ergonomically correct for my needs. Caveat here is that I have never had a motor assist bike without a throttle on it and have a pretty good idea of what it takes to make it feel right.
thumb throttle.jpg

What it did for me also was move my brake lever over so I can easily cover it with at least 3 fingers now instead of 2.

My bike suffers from the stock jumpy throttle, at least until I can get it flashed, and if you press it at the bottom of the lever it will go full blast easily. However pressing on it close to the pivot point it is easy to feather it.

It was a plug and play install btw as Marek made the switch to Bafang style Higo's before sending out.

Also got my 155 Miranda cranks from Australia and installed them. Pic showing that there is a definite difference in length!
170 vx. 155.jpg
 
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I run my throttle on my Z1 on the right side and after seeing the possibility of a narrower format one made over in Polska I contacted the maker and got him to send me some. Biggest difference for my needs is that they are 5/8" narrower than stock and are also ergonomically correct for my needs. Caveat here is that I have never had a motor assist bike without a throttle on it and have a pretty good idea of what it takes to make it feel right.
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What it did for me also was move my brake lever over so I can easily cover it with at least 3 fingers now instead of 2.

My bike suffers from the stock jumpy throttle, at least until I can get it flashed, and if you press it at the bottom of the lever it will go full blast easily. However pressing on it close to the pivot point it is easy to feather it.

It was a plug and play install btw as Marek made the switch to Bafang style Higo's before sending out.

Also got my 155 Micanda cranks from Australia and installed them. Pic showing that there is a definite difference in length!
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165 crank arms are for some downhill MTB applications where you want to avoid a pedal strike on suspension stack situations. That is when the suspension compresses again and again before it can rebound. Most crank arms are 170 or 175 on large bikes.
 
The X2 is also a awesome bike to consider, it has great geometry and is plenty powerful if you just want to go trail riding (as i mentioned im a big guy and it gets me up everything ive faced so far with ease)...but the throttle feels more like a toy vs the throttle on the Apollo, i don't really foresee using the throttle on the X2 much if at all, where the throttle on the Apollo was a super fun when all you wanted was power and a grin on your face!

...hmmm, now thinking I may have to also get a Z1 down the road, lol :p
Go into the tuning app, profiles, select Ludicrous but bring down most of the settings other than throttle amps. That may change your mind RE ‘toy throttle’ although in reality, the Ultra will handle sustained high power output a lot longer than the M600 based on ability to dissipate heat/run cooler alone.

Tough to say when/if Apollos will even show up again. While I do wish the Z1 and X2 came with higher voltage batteries, I dont think I’d choose Apollo over the Z1 (or X2), but it does start to make sense for anyone looking fo heavy use of throttle perhaps..
 
Im gonna say that even the 165mm cranks are to long for a full travel bike, I don't think a DH bike really matters as there not really pedaling much at all. My bike motor I got from WW came with the Miranda 170's right out of the box and I think I gave it 2 -3 rides before nixing that noise. The 160's make a big difference in not having pedal strikes and I know a couple of people that have the 152, 150mm sizes on their full suspension rides as well and they like them just fine. Just ordered another pair of 160's from Praxis over in the UK as I came to an abrupt stop in between a couple of big rocks awhile back and actually bent the non-drive side crank arm. So my pedal stroke was wonky making a full revolution. Took it off and clamped it in the vice and straightened it the best I could but after looking at the splines on the inside some were starting to round off so I got the new set. Think I payed $65 or so shipped and it took less than two weeks. Couldn't find the Miranda Delta 160's anywhere. The praxis looks just as good and they even come with their own crankbolts, we'll see.
As far as the Luna bikes go just get a 52v battery and retrofit it. That wouldn't stop me from buying one or the other. But the Apollo you could pretty easy fit a larger battery inside the main triangle even if you had to scrap the original which is 21ah I think. Wish I knew someone who knew how to make a bike battery.
Only people I know that use their throttle much are the urban street riding guys around here anyways. Anyone that I ride with on a regular basis rarely use their throttle
 
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To me pedal strikes are for sure a thing to watch out for and always have been but for sure the advent of long travel suspension has upped the odds of it happening so a new sense of awareness has to be learned I feel. #1 for me was the reality that you don't want to post on your bike with a crank in the 6 o'clock position even on relatively benign looking terrain as there is a good chance if your suspension compresses it will dig into the ground and stop your forward progress pronto.

Quite frankly I had not considered shorter cranks until the Z1 and resulting results of the formerly described incident being taken as a warning and after talking to a friend that has them on his Levo and swears by them I decided to get with the program. Got these from Amazon:

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Got a chance to trial the shorter crank arms yesterday on some substantial hill climbs close by my house. Aside from the strike issue I was curious as to how the decreased leverage would effect hill climbing ability but at least with how the stock programming is set up on my bike the only thing I noted was that if I used a high cadence, which I am apt to do with assist, there are no penalties to the shorter levers. Took a few rough routes to check for strikes but only time will tell how it all works out but optimistic that it is the right choice and a relatively cheap solution that is easy to swap out.

I do doubt it would be worth it to only go to a 160/165mm crankset though as in for a dime in for a dollar and switching to 150 or 155 seems to be at least a readily available option anyway.

As far as the throttle goes the fact that I pay attention to detail with it is not so that I can use it while under way as I only use it for starting off most of the time until I activate the PAS via the cranks or as a walk assist which I find works well and is always ready to go. The jumpy nature is in regards to the fact that as my bike came stock if you activate the throttle from a standstill you had better be ready to hang onto the bike as it will buck like a rented mule....it can be regulated however with a more gentle approach and the new one is better for that than the stock one. As I said the narrow factor also is a plus for how I like my controls to be oriented.
 
Another thing to consider when going with a shorter crank arm is your seat height will probably need to be raised up as a result of your pedal stroke not being as full. Food for thought.
 
My Chisel was an 11-speed. I made it a nine. 9-speeds are thicker, or wider and they cost less. I like the KMX X9 chains. Here are a couple of Christmas Luna X2s. I made hers with a more comfortable cockpit and saddle. I might upgrade their drivetrains to 9-speeds when they eat the first cassette. That can happen very quickly on these bikes. Here is also a photo of where I ride. If you want to view custom builds see PedalUma.com for some ideas.
Does anyone feel that a 12 speed e-mtb is prob not necessary and a 8-9 would be a better fit? I feel with a Ultra motor, there would be plenty of gears for most riding. I live in mostly flat lands, but even for other locations, it sounds like 8-9 speeds using a powerful Ultra motor would prob be optimal? Plus the benefit from a larger stronger chain to support the power when/if needed seem like a better overall setup? It doesn't look like Luna will offer this, so I would have to customize once purchased. Its an option, but would be nice to find a bike setup this way from the factory.

I know there is never the "Perfect" ebike for everyone, LOL.
 
But there is the perfect eBike for each of us out there. Getting to that bike is just not easy.

After a couple hundred miles now with an M620 stock tune 12spd I like the close ratio of the 12spd in conjunction with shorter cranks I installed because keeping a high cadence seems to allow the best performance? While you can lug the motor and it will respond, the pedal feel goes away and becomes sluggish and more work. Mode dependent of course.

My plan is to wear out the 12spd stock SRAM cassette and a few chains to do so and then see what's available on the market. I really like the idea as above of a chain being able to be perhaps stronger, but how much so, for a 8/9 spd. Still should be enough gears on tap for keeping efficiency with perhaps some tuning and the right chainring/cassette sizes.

It can take awhile to tailor a bike to ones liking and the best part of that are the test rides!
 
Does anyone feel that a 12 speed e-mtb is prob not necessary and a 8-9 would be a better fit? I feel with a Ultra motor, there would be plenty of gears for most riding. I live in mostly flat lands, but even for other locations, it sounds like 8-9 speeds using a powerful Ultra motor would prob be optimal? Plus the benefit from a larger stronger chain to support the power when/if needed seem like a better overall setup? It doesn't look like Luna will offer this, so I would have to customize once purchased. Its an option, but would be nice to find a bike setup this way from the factory.

I know there is never the "Perfect" ebike for everyone, LOL.
Yep. So does Box Components, and Shimano. Box pushes their '8 is enough' and 'Prime 9' for ebikes, while Shimano is expected someday/sometime to release 'LinkGlide' for eBikes, although I believe it's in 10s and 11s, but same general idea.

I've gone back and forth on Box, with some noting they believe their cassettes (possibly derailleurs as well, others?) are made for them by Sunrace, and reviews are kind of mixed.
Microshift isn't e-bike specific but makes a clutch derailleur setup in 9s at the least.
I had a line of a full set of Shimano Linkglide components overseas but - couldn't get the chain, which apparently is claimed to be specific.

Looking at power output on Ultras, let alone something like an Innotrace'd or future (not announced but expected by me anyways) LudiV2 Ultra, I think there are a lot of options. Some with EU-spec eMTBs are already/have been running smaller range cassettes like 12-36, and also moving to < 12 speed.

It's still in my current plans for my X2 Ludi, with more comparable power to a stock Ultra, although I almost always ride in levels 2 and 3 of 9.. but kind of do like having the 'granny gear' so have been all over the place. It would simplify my life/parts supply as my wife's bike is a 10s, and I'm the one carrying the 'field spares' etc..

I do kind of like the 12s, but I haven't 'needed' all of the gears. I'd be curious if there was a true study done on e.g. cassette gears/range of gears vs battery consumption on the same trails, as logic would dictate some more extreme changes might impact battery life/range - but not sure how significantly in going from e.g. 11-50T 12s to 11-42s 10s or similar. I also want to see what kind of range I get from the SRAM PG1230 that came on my X2 before making final decisions on 'next' but would like to see how Shimano's system works out.
 
Sure. I had planned on doing a detailed writeup in the Bafang forum where I explained every little thing as there seemed to be quite a bit of confusion about what some of the things did...but never got around to it. Maybe I'll just post the stuff here and let people ask questions.

Yeah, that's where most of the credit goes--I didn't really end up changing all that much. I'd encourage people to read Frey's writeup and compare what they did to the stock settings to get an idea how things work. Anyway, here are mine:

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You guys can compare that with the Frey and see the things I changed and decide if you want to change them or not or try your own settings. I'd say the most notable change I think really helps with low speed control in mid-higher PAS modes is on the Torque Tab, I've reduced the MaxCurrent% at low cadences (33 and 66%). If you want to pop wheelies at takeoff or race people, you probably won't like that. But many people complain about low speed control in higher PAS modes which was something I wanted to improve. Maneuvering around obstacles, or turning a switchback on a steep hill, where you're in a higher PAS mode but are slowed down and need control, this cuts power at really low cadences. It also gives a smoother takeoff which is helpful starting up a steep hill where you're trying not to break traction. You feel the motor get stronger as you "get going" and get up to a normal cadence.

The biggest thing the tune does is controlled by the values under Delta Voltage. Since this software (or maybe the controller?) doesn't allow you to directly change the output curve of the motor vs torque, you can do it indirectly by changing these values--the calibration of the torque sensor. The new values give you a more dynamic, progressive output curve vs the force you put on the pedals. This is similar in concept to the "eMTB" or "Magictour" modes from Bosch, and some other high end brands have something similar:

View attachment 109410

To me, it feels much more dynamic, allowing even higher assist modes to be usable for easy cruising at low speeds--then if you want to blast up to high speed or hit a steep hill, there's no need to change modes. You just pedal harder. Sort of like how a bike is supposed to work. ;) The numbers Frey or I use above aren't written in stone--if you're a big, strong guy with legs that look like Saquon Barkley's, you probably want to raise the first couple of values. If you're a smaller person or can't pedal very hard for whatever reason, you may want to lower them or it may be hard for you to ever reach full power.

On the other hand, for commuters, you may actually prefer the stock Bafang settings more (more cadence sensor-like) so you can get to work without getting sweaty. It's all up to you to experiment around with and find something you like.

You can surmise simply by looking at the numbers how it improves efficiency for a given PAS mode--in order to get the same amount of power you need to pedal harder, so rider power input is usually going to be more for the same motor power output. But charts help. Here's a short ride over the same route that actually showing motor power consumption:

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Here you can see how the stock programming ends up being pretty close to an on/off switch. Very little time is spent at low or medium power output for that PAS mode. Compare that with the tuned chart:


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Here you can see how the torque sensor is actually working now. A lot of time is spent at low and medium power levels. But when I put the hammer down, full power is available.

For those that want to save some time, I attached the file. The board won't let me attach a .el file so I changed the extension. If you just rename the file, changing the extension to .el you should be able to load it into your software and take a look or give it a try if you want. Let me know if that doesn't work and I'll try something else.
Thanks JonA for remarkable good work shared with the community. I Flashed these settings this weekend and went for along ride. The bike now rides much more like a commercial ebike (meant as a compliment), that is there is a linear responsive torque sensor and level is actual a low level of assist, while Level 5 still has good torque response. Previously it was predominantly cadence assit with very little toque assist, now it is the other way around. I also like the tapered throttle response - usually I need that to get out of a hole or start up hill, and the rapid onset "wheelie" throttle is not good for that. In short this is an excellent profile for off road singletrack. I am unable to guess yet how many more miles of range I willget with this, but im using MUCH less power on the flats so I am thinking it should increase. I have another hard tail Ultra ebike which I am leaving in the orginal config, since it is used primarily on paved or gravel roads, and has a 1100 wH battery. The original config is best for speed and acceleration, but no so much for technical singletrack.
 
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I had a loud, super obnoxious creaking headset. Im betting others are having this problem - headset creaks like crazy, tightening compression, headset and handlebar connections doesn't make a difference. Creaks are common with Carbon but this was ridiculous. Finally tipped the bike over and dribbled a little chain lube where headset meets the frame (at the bottom of the headset) and VOILA, silence.
 
But there is the perfect eBike for each of us out there. Getting to that bike is just not easy.

After a couple hundred miles now with an M620 stock tune 12spd I like the close ratio of the 12spd in conjunction with shorter cranks I installed because keeping a high cadence seems to allow the best performance? While you can lug the motor and it will respond, the pedal feel goes away and becomes sluggish and more work. Mode dependent of course.

My plan is to wear out the 12spd stock SRAM cassette and a few chains to do so and then see what's available on the market. I really like the idea as above of a chain being able to be perhaps stronger, but how much so, for a 8/9 spd. Still should be enough gears on tap for keeping efficiency with perhaps some tuning and the right chainring/cassette sizes.

It can take awhile to tailor a bike to ones liking and the best part of that are the test rides!
As far as 12 speeds go I have been riding an HPC Scout hard tail SRAM GX 12 speed with M620 Ultra, 52v 21AH Direwolf battery for about 1.5 years and over 5000 miles. Mostly as my commuter where I am riding at max power continuously for 15 miles at 30-35 mph, except for a mile at the end which is 14% grade at 14 mph. In other words, I am putting worst case scenario stress on my chain. I tried the $80 KMC Chain and it lasted no longer than the SRAM NX chains for $25. I find the chains last about 1000 miles and I have never broken one. I like the 12 speeds and if you use them they will serve you well. If you mash the throttle from stop in 12'th gear, you will break chains.
 
Thanks for that report @Jeffr exactly the tune I'm looking for now if I could just get my hands on that windows laptop. Going to await final judgement on the shorter cranks until I do the JonA upgrade though as it may change the dynamics? Crap, more testing necessary.

No noise but I did notice a slight front end movement that I thought was a loose headset but turned out to be the thru bolt had backed off a bit. Probably didn't get proper torque last it was installed....note to self...

Like the idea of a bike for both worlds as then they can be best suited. Noodling the concept myself.
 
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This should be the one for the X1 and X2 - unsure if the same on the Z1.

If not, get a pic and send it to one of the aliexpress derailleur sellers and they’ll find it…
Did anyone ever determine if these are the correct hangars for the Z1? I bent mine this weekend and its only a matter of time till I break one, would like to get a pare to have on hand.
 
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