Luna Z1 - First impressions

Alright, I purchased a Bafang cable and connected to the controller. Here were my settings. Of note, my low battery cutoff is set to 41V. I'm not certain if I'm in the "bike dies at 46v camp" because I don't think I've taken any rides long enough yet, but now I absolutely need to do a range test. While I was in there, I did smooth out the assist levels. Haven't tested to see if they feel better as such. Hopefully Friday.
Those are identical to the stock settings on my Ultra from Bafang/Dengfu. Are you sure you're using the right version of the software? You should have a "Torque" tab--very important!

That is still around 30wh/mi which is at least 10wh/mi more than I would like.....Just checked the charge and used 10ah's which is 480wh's or 26wh's/mi which is more than I had hoped for.
You should be able to improve that quite a bit. The last few rides I've measured right around 20wh/mile--and that's on 27.5X4" fat tires on a heavier (with my dual battery setup) E06. I was getting more in the 23-25 range with fatter 26X4.8s on heavier wheels. Your bike should roll more efficiently--though I'm not all that heavy anymore and I do pedal hard. ;) That's about 95% use in level 3 of 5 (55% of a full 30A).

The key is tuning the Torque tab. The stock tuning, while technically torque sensing, is just barely so. In reality it acts close to cadence sensing, giving you full power without having to pedal very hard. You can tune the torque tab to make the torque sensing much more dynamic, such that you need to pedal really hard to get full power for whatever mode you're in. Besides better efficiency, you get a better workout mode for mode. And the need for constantly switch modes is dramatically reduced--most rides I start out in level 3 and don't touch it the whole ride.
 
Those are identical to the stock settings on my Ultra from Bafang/Dengfu. Are you sure you're using the right version of the software? You should have a "Torque" tab--very important!


You should be able to improve that quite a bit. The last few rides I've measured right around 20wh/mile--and that's on 27.5X4" fat tires on a heavier (with my dual battery setup) E06. I was getting more in the 23-25 range with fatter 26X4.8s on heavier wheels. Your bike should roll more efficiently--though I'm not all that heavy anymore and I do pedal hard. ;) That's about 95% use in level 3 of 5 (55% of a full 30A).

The key is tuning the Torque tab. The stock tuning, while technically torque sensing, is just barely so. In reality it acts close to cadence sensing, giving you full power without having to pedal very hard. You can tune the torque tab to make the torque sensing much more dynamic, such that you need to pedal really hard to get full power for whatever mode you're in. Besides better efficiency, you get a better workout mode for mode. And the need for constantly switch modes is dramatically reduced--most rides I start out in level 3 and don't touch it the whole ride.

I don't know if I have the right version. I downloaded what I found. Do you have a recommended version?
 
I found a version with a torque tab. Good to know. Here are the settings as it came.

z1-4.png
 
People seem pretty happy with Frey smooth tune and other variations here, probably worth tesing:

 
@Jon A I wonder if you could post a screen shot of your torque settings as that is exactly what I want?
Sure. I had planned on doing a detailed writeup in the Bafang forum where I explained every little thing as there seemed to be quite a bit of confusion about what some of the things did...but never got around to it. Maybe I'll just post the stuff here and let people ask questions.
People seem pretty happy with Frey smooth tune and other variations here, probably worth tesing:

Yeah, that's where most of the credit goes--I didn't really end up changing all that much. I'd encourage people to read Frey's writeup and compare what they did to the stock settings to get an idea how things work. Anyway, here are mine:

JonFreyMod2Basic.jpg


JonFreyMod2PedalAssist.jpg


JonFreyMod2Throttle.jpg


JonFreyMod2Torque.jpg


You guys can compare that with the Frey and see the things I changed and decide if you want to change them or not or try your own settings. I'd say the most notable change I think really helps with low speed control in mid-higher PAS modes is on the Torque Tab, I've reduced the MaxCurrent% at low cadences (33 and 66%). If you want to pop wheelies at takeoff or race people, you probably won't like that. But many people complain about low speed control in higher PAS modes which was something I wanted to improve. Maneuvering around obstacles, or turning a switchback on a steep hill, where you're in a higher PAS mode but are slowed down and need control, this cuts power at really low cadences. It also gives a smoother takeoff which is helpful starting up a steep hill where you're trying not to break traction. You feel the motor get stronger as you "get going" and get up to a normal cadence.

The biggest thing the tune does is controlled by the values under Delta Voltage. Since this software (or maybe the controller?) doesn't allow you to directly change the output curve of the motor vs torque, you can do it indirectly by changing these values--the calibration of the torque sensor. The new values give you a more dynamic, progressive output curve vs the force you put on the pedals. This is similar in concept to the "eMTB" or "Magictour" modes from Bosch, and some other high end brands have something similar:

EMTBLite.jpg


To me, it feels much more dynamic, allowing even higher assist modes to be usable for easy cruising at low speeds--then if you want to blast up to high speed or hit a steep hill, there's no need to change modes. You just pedal harder. Sort of like how a bike is supposed to work. ;) The numbers Frey or I use above aren't written in stone--if you're a big, strong guy with legs that look like Saquon Barkley's, you probably want to raise the first couple of values. If you're a smaller person or can't pedal very hard for whatever reason, you may want to lower them or it may be hard for you to ever reach full power.

On the other hand, for commuters, you may actually prefer the stock Bafang settings more (more cadence sensor-like) so you can get to work without getting sweaty. It's all up to you to experiment around with and find something you like.

You can surmise simply by looking at the numbers how it improves efficiency for a given PAS mode--in order to get the same amount of power you need to pedal harder, so rider power input is usually going to be more for the same motor power output. But charts help. Here's a short ride over the same route that actually showing motor power consumption:

Screenshot_20210801-185408.png


Here you can see how the stock programming ends up being pretty close to an on/off switch. Very little time is spent at low or medium power output for that PAS mode. Compare that with the tuned chart:


Screenshot_20210907-012837.png



Here you can see how the torque sensor is actually working now. A lot of time is spent at low and medium power levels. But when I put the hammer down, full power is available.

For those that want to save some time, I attached the file. The board won't let me attach a .el file so I changed the extension. If you just rename the file, changing the extension to .el you should be able to load it into your software and take a look or give it a try if you want. Let me know if that doesn't work and I'll try something else.
 

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Couldn't be more timely for me at least @Jon A! Going to work on this today but on a Mac with Parallel....wish me luck!

Great explanation and cleared up alot of my range worries about the Ultra going forward. I knew it was configurable due to the UART but not to this level.....That and the fact that one can actually work on it if there is a problem suits my needs to a T and am glad that I ended up with the Ultra over the M600 I had been targeting.

But at the end of the day the best I think I can expect range wise where I live if getting in the high teens even of wh's/mi the 840wh stock battery still will not be enough for a few of the rides I have on my Garmin....Close though as they are around 50-60mile loops mostly on logging roads. Even having a spare battery on 40mile rides would alleviate any anxiety.

Also the lions share of the rides from my house are 20 or so miles that are more day to day. So for that purpose a smaller 600wh or so battery would suffice and also shave weight. Plus it would make the above possible.

There are alot of X and Z bikes out there now that share the same battery architecture so hopefully someone will make it happen!

Oh, and perhaps this info should be stand alone on the Bafang forum for future availability? Maybe under the banner of an all things Ultra type thread? That way it would benefit all Ultra bike owners, not just the Z1 types.

One last thing is that with this level of configurability through the stock controller why do people feel the need for Innotrace etc. type extra $$ ones? Is it just to be able to raise the wattage? Couldn't you just raise the A via the above?
 
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Alright, I purchased a Bafang cable and connected to the controller. Here were my settings. Of note, my low battery cutoff is set to 41V. I'm not certain if I'm in the "bike dies at 46v camp" because I don't think I've taken any rides long enough yet, but now I absolutely need to do a range test. While I was in there, I did smooth out the assist levels. Haven't tested to see if they feel better as such. Hopefully Friday.

View attachment 109393
View attachment 109394
View attachment 109395
You launched the wrong program executable - this one will work, but you’re missing the Torque tab. Look in the same directory as the program you started, and there’s another executable, I think it ends in ‘st_torque.exe…and you will also get a tab for Torque..41v seems in the ballpark for 48v cutoff..
 
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Also worth noting....Luna advertises this bike as 1600 watts. I never see anything more than high 1400s. Seeing as the amps are 30A max, I can see why. Anyone ever see 1600w?
I never see anything over 1000w. My display does not switch between current (amps) and power (watts), no matter if I change the setting. The display provides a curve at the bottom from 0-1000w. How do you change the display to go over 1000w?
 
I never see anything over 1000w. My display does not switch between current (amps) and power (watts), no matter if I change the setting. The display provides a curve at the bottom from 0-1000w. How do you change the display to go over 1000w?
Odd...mine was defaulted on watts and regularly shows 1400+. I didn't do anything to change that.
 
Sure. I had planned on doing a detailed writeup in the Bafang forum where I explained every little thing as there seemed to be quite a bit of confusion about what some of the things did...but never got around to it. Maybe I'll just post the stuff here and let people ask questions.

Yeah, that's where most of the credit goes--I didn't really end up changing all that much. I'd encourage people to read Frey's writeup and compare what they did to the stock settings to get an idea how things work. Anyway, here are mine:

View attachment 109403

View attachment 109404

View attachment 109405

View attachment 109406

You guys can compare that with the Frey and see the things I changed and decide if you want to change them or not or try your own settings. I'd say the most notable change I think really helps with low speed control in mid-higher PAS modes is on the Torque Tab, I've reduced the MaxCurrent% at low cadences (33 and 66%). If you want to pop wheelies at takeoff or race people, you probably won't like that. But many people complain about low speed control in higher PAS modes which was something I wanted to improve. Maneuvering around obstacles, or turning a switchback on a steep hill, where you're in a higher PAS mode but are slowed down and need control, this cuts power at really low cadences. It also gives a smoother takeoff which is helpful starting up a steep hill where you're trying not to break traction. You feel the motor get stronger as you "get going" and get up to a normal cadence.

The biggest thing the tune does is controlled by the values under Delta Voltage. Since this software (or maybe the controller?) doesn't allow you to directly change the output curve of the motor vs torque, you can do it indirectly by changing these values--the calibration of the torque sensor. The new values give you a more dynamic, progressive output curve vs the force you put on the pedals. This is similar in concept to the "eMTB" or "Magictour" modes from Bosch, and some other high end brands have something similar:

View attachment 109410

To me, it feels much more dynamic, allowing even higher assist modes to be usable for easy cruising at low speeds--then if you want to blast up to high speed or hit a steep hill, there's no need to change modes. You just pedal harder. Sort of like how a bike is supposed to work. ;) The numbers Frey or I use above aren't written in stone--if you're a big, strong guy with legs that look like Saquon Barkley's, you probably want to raise the first couple of values. If you're a smaller person or can't pedal very hard for whatever reason, you may want to lower them or it may be hard for you to ever reach full power.

On the other hand, for commuters, you may actually prefer the stock Bafang settings more (more cadence sensor-like) so you can get to work without getting sweaty. It's all up to you to experiment around with and find something you like.

You can surmise simply by looking at the numbers how it improves efficiency for a given PAS mode--in order to get the same amount of power you need to pedal harder, so rider power input is usually going to be more for the same motor power output. But charts help. Here's a short ride over the same route that actually showing motor power consumption:

View attachment 109411

Here you can see how the stock programming ends up being pretty close to an on/off switch. Very little time is spent at low or medium power output for that PAS mode. Compare that with the tuned chart:


View attachment 109412


Here you can see how the torque sensor is actually working now. A lot of time is spent at low and medium power levels. But when I put the hammer down, full power is available.

For those that want to save some time, I attached the file. The board won't let me attach a .el file so I changed the extension. If you just rename the file, changing the extension to .el you should be able to load it into your software and take a look or give it a try if you want. Let me know if that doesn't work and I'll try something else.
Just flashed this today. Feels sooooo much more progressive. totally different bike vs stock.
 
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I have the cable but I cannot find recent programming for the ultra. would someone please post the link for the controller firmware. TIA
You’re not generally updating the ultra firmware as much as adjusting settings and parameters to alter behavior. Even few-years-old program will still work for Ultra programming. Take a look through Biktrix’s docs and writeup - should have a download to the software needed and is generally pretty good overall.
 
No More Coffee Grinder! I had mentioned my motor seemed unusually loud, life a coffee grinder. Even my riding partners (also have ebikes) were complaining about it. So I pulled off the motor cover (the one with the word LUNA stamped on it) and sure enough it had not been installed correctly. The end bearing for the rotor was wobbling in its seat, vibrating the cover. I cleaned out the worn metal, lubed it generously with Mobil SCH 300. While I was in there I pulled the rotor out with vise grips and shoved big gobs of red SHC grease into the gear compartment. Closed it up gently and ran it at full power for 2 miles. It is not silent but much more in line with my other ultra (Alum, not Mag). I Cannot know whether it was the grease on the gears or re-seating the bearing and I suspect it was a bit of both. If anyone is having excessive noise, I recommend this as a a first line approach. Tools required are 3 mm Allen wrench and long nosed vice grips to grab hold of the rotor - that sucker does NOT want to come out.
 
The magnetic attraction between the rotor and the stator is what makes it a bugger to separate.

Also to the guys only showing a max of about 1400w on the display you might have a 48v battery supply.
48v x 30a = 1440w
52v x 30a = 1560w

Another thing if your running a 52v battery you'll want to raise your LV cutoff a bit 41v is probably for the 48v system.

Biktrix has some programming downloads that are ok but the one I have had the best luck with is the one from Mike at Frey as a good starting point.
Someone asked about how the innotrace software is compared to this programming, apples and oranges, totally different programming perimeters, they tone it all down to make it smooth for sure and more range capacity but if you ride aggressively you want it to be full capacity and tune back from there.
But what do I know.
Good review guys.
 
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Getting the bars dialed in to my liking. Still waiting for the thinner throttle to show from the EU but it will be easy to swap out and give me a little more brake lever to grasp.

Bella better bar.jpg


Went right away to the grip shifter to place the throttle where I like it. Plus I just like how they operate tactilly with a satisfying click you can feel. Swapped out the out and proud display for the smaller more discrete 500c sourced from AliExpress but it came fairly fast in a very small box even.

Had the light next to the stock display mount but it was cockeyed and got it right next to the stem now so that is better. My dropper is down at the moment because I lost the cable end barrel of the KS dropper while swapping out the lever. I test fit the lever and the clamp will fit nicely under the 500c and easily at thumb under the grip.

Decided on a wheel upgrade to DT Swiss 350hubs laced w/DT Swiss butted spokes to RF AR Asym i35 rims tubeless. Stock wheels with stock Rekons will go on the block. Mucky Nutz front long fenders front and rear, with additions and heat gunning, working well after a few fitment issues.

Overall enjoying the bike and had just over 100 miles on the stock display but still haven't gotten access to a Windows computer to put Jon A's tune on it. I am hoping it will be what I want or at least closer to it pedaling wise and throttle softening too.
 
Getting the bars dialed in to my liking. Still waiting for the thinner throttle to show from the EU but it will be easy to swap out and give me a little more brake lever to grasp.

View attachment 109979

Went right away to the grip shifter to place the throttle where I like it. Plus I just like how they operate tactilly with a satisfying click you can feel. Swapped out the out and proud display for the smaller more discrete 500c sourced from AliExpress but it came fairly fast in a very small box even.

Had the light next to the stock display mount but it was cockeyed and got it right next to the stem now so that is better. My dropper is down at the moment because I lost the cable end barrel of the KS dropper while swapping out the lever. I test fit the lever and the clamp will fit nicely under the 500c and easily at thumb under the grip.

Decided on a wheel upgrade to DT Swiss 350hubs laced w/DT Swiss butted spokes to RF AR Asym i35 rims tubeless. Stock wheels with stock Rekons will go on the block. Mucky Nutz front long fenders front and rear, with additions and heat gunning, working well after a few fitment issues.

Overall enjoying the bike and had just over 100 miles on the stock display but still haven't gotten access to a Windows computer to put Jon A's tune on it. I am hoping it will be what I want or at least closer to it pedaling wise and throttle softening too.

Oh wow, great minds....I installed a 500c yesterday. I also moved the throttle to the right side and swapped the brakes f/r. I've gotten so used to the reverse MTB (moto) setup with my sur-rons and I also ride motorcycles.
 
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Does anyone know what derailleur hanger fits? I bent mine pretty good. Got it back into shape but I'd love to have a spare. I tried the universal SRAM and it does not fit.
 
Either contact LUNA direct or DengFu? There is no such thing as a standardized der. hanger that I know of which is a shame.....My custom FS 29"er was out of commission for almost 10yrs. due to its hanger being also custom.....Not that you should have that problem. Tip though you might try and get a few and be the "man" for when someone else does the same?
 
Either contact LUNA direct or DengFu? There is no such thing as a standardized der. hanger that I know of which is a shame.....My custom FS 29"er was out of commission for almost 10yrs. due to its hanger being also custom.....Not that you should have that problem. Tip though you might try and get a few and be the "man" for when someone else does the same?
D
Does anyone know what derailleur hanger fits? I bent mine pretty good. Got it back into shape but I'd love to have a spare. I tried the universal SRAM and it does not fit.
This is not a joke: Derailleurhangar.com.
Looks like Hangar 148 is the only one for Deng Fu they have. Take a look at the photo and see if its a match.
fm59
1640474668409.png
 
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