Losing my mind which mid drive bike direct

[tomjasz]

oK. 6 years of building and I’m very pleased, but I’m envious of the Brose, BOSCH and YAMAHA mid drive OWNERS. I’m READY TO pull the pin and add a OEM EBIKE TO THE STABLE. WHICH BUILDER FIRECT RESELLER USES ONE OF THESE DRIVE, OR IS THAT ENTIRELY OUT OF THE QUESTION? On second thought that’s not going to happen. As a 1/2 decade kit builder it’s hard to give up the DIY independence. I have a great Trek dealer so it’s likely that will be my dive into a factory built bike. I’m committed to Electra geometry so my choices are narrowed. None of the premium brands offer crank forward comfort feature.

Any ideas? Flat foot frame, Yamaha or Bosch powered. I still cringe over the complexity of a mid drive, but those system specs are impressive.

My dream machine would be a 2006ish Electra Step through with a Yamaha drive. Yamaha only because I’ve always like Yamaha products, and Bosch appliances were a miserable and expensive choice with poor service.

Because I do a bad job of keeping up with complete eBijes I need some ideas and suggestions.

Nothing over $2500. I’m of the opinion some of the high end brands are not unlike high end watches. I bought an Omega when my jeweler suggested it was every bit as reliable a watch as Rolex. Without the name premium.
And here I am 20 years later and forget to ever wear a useless item like a watch.

I guess it boils down, ideally, to a Yamaha powered flat foot cruiser.

(Jeez, I can’t believe I evolved, devolved?, to a non kit bike)

 

[The duke]

I think I need my crackerjack decoder ring to get the full gist of your post

 

[tomjasz]

I think I need my crackerjack decoder ring to get the full gist of your post

EDIT, YIKES, I COULD NOT MAKE HEADS OR TAILS OF MY OWN POST. THEN REALIZED I HAD USED MY IPHONE SE TINY SCREEN TO SPELL OUT A ONE FINGER WHISKEY INFUSED RESPONSE WITHOUT A SECOND LOOK.. MY MA SCHOOL ADMINISTRATOR WIFE WIGGED OUT WHEN I SHOWED HER.
Yeah, my iPHONE update combined with a stroke brain and a hurried “Post Reply” after 3 15 year old Balvenie single barrel on the rocks addled a response. mea culpa... maybe a better decider ring? Or 4 Oz. Might help? Better luck in the morning...<red faced and embarrassed> (but still a great glow...)

Note to self, Balvenie and eBikes don’t mix, whether riding or typing.

Red faced and embarrassed...

 

[Browneye]

Glen Morangie for me...
And home-made beer - my other 'hobby'.

Why not the Yamaha CrossConnect if you want the yamaha drive? Adjust components for stance comfort.
As far as I've been able to find online, Giant and Haibike are the only other US bikes with their motors. Perhaps there are others - I'm still pretty new at all this.

As mentioned, I liked the idea of a Yamaha motor but still waiting for my Giant Explore to arrive. I'll know a lot more in a month. I've already ordered tires for it, a cheap suspension seat post, and a taller stem. My old back can't do the aggressive stance, so more upright as well.

I did test ride the Trek Verve and liked it way more than I thought I would. I'm not a big fan of Bosch as a company either, but they have their fingers in every industry and do pretty well for the most part. Well, at least I like to think so.

As an aside, my Chevy Duramax had bosch injectors - the early ones had nearly 100% failures. I'm sure that cost them a pretty penny, and GM extended the warranty to 7 years and 200K miles. Every one of those trucks had the injectors replaced.

And I have a Winnebago on a Workhorse chassis - it has bosch brakes. They put phenolic pistons in the calipers and when they got hot the pistons would stick and burn up the brakes. NHTSB finally forced them to do a recall and replace them all. The new ones are fine, but that had to be another costly warranty coverage for bosch..

My opinion of them after firsthand experience is that they're a creative and technically proficient company, but too many failures after putting their product into real world use. I guess a bicycle is in a different category than a vehicle, but still. [shrug] For all I know it's a different company, but surely different divisions. Maybe like 3M, huh?

I would buy a Trek with bosch without batting an eye cuz I like Trek bikes and the company stands behind their product. The Trek stores around here are by far the nicest of all of them.

 

[StmbtDave]

My wife purchased a non-ebike Electra Townie three years ago and loved it. This summer she replaced it with an ebike Electra Loft. I think it's about the same thing as the Electra Townie 8i. It has the Bosch motor, internal hub gearing with a twist shift, 700c tires, fenders and racks, and the same relaxed riding position as her Townie. She absolutely loves it and rides it almost every day. She isn't a hard core rider by any means as she just cruises along at max 10mph, looking all around to enjoy the surroundings, and all the while driving me nuts (LOL). A long ride for her is 10-15 miles. She's had her bike almost 3 months and has 300 miles on it. We haven't had problem one with the bike or the motor.

I purchased a Yamaha Wabash and also ride almost every day but my rides are more in the range of 30-50 miles. I've had my bike 5 weeks and have 700 miles on it. The Yamaha PW-SE motor had developed a howl and yesterday the dealer sent a sound video to Yamaha. We're waiting to hear if they will replace the motor under warranty. I can't say the Yamaha motor has been trouble free.

 

[Greg Johnson]

My wife purchased a non-ebike Electra Townie three years ago and loved it. This summer she replaced it with an ebike Electra Loft. I think it's about the same thing as the Electra Townie 8i. It has the Bosch motor, internal hub gearing with a twist shift, 700c tires, fenders and racks, and the same relaxed riding position as her Townie. She absolutely loves it and rides it almost every day. She isn't a hard core rider by any means as she just cruises along at max 10mph, looking all around to enjoy the surroundings, and all the while driving me nuts (LOL). A long ride for her is 10-15 miles. She's had her bike almost 3 months and has 300 miles on it. We haven't had problem one with the bike or the motor.

I purchased a Yamaha Wabash and also ride almost every day but my rides are more in the range of 30-50 miles. I've had my bike 5 weeks and have 700 miles on it. The Yamaha PW-SE motor had developed a howl and yesterday the dealer sent a sound video to Yamaha. We're waiting to hear if they will replace the motor under warranty. I can't say the Yamaha motor has been trouble free.

Glen Morangie for me...
And home-made beer - my other 'hobby'.

Why not the Yamaha CrossConnect if you want the yamaha drive? Adjust components for stance comfort.
As far as I've been able to find online, Giant and Haibike are the only other US bikes with their motors. Perhaps there are others - I'm still pretty new at all this.

As mentioned, I liked the idea of a Yamaha motor but still waiting for my Giant Explore to arrive. I'll know a lot more in a month. I've already ordered tires for it, a cheap suspension seat post, and a taller stem. My old back can't do the aggressive stance, so more upright as well.

I did test ride the Trek Verve and liked it way more than I thought I would. I'm not a big fan of Bosch as a company either, but they have their fingers in every industry and do pretty well for the most part. Well, at least I like to think so.

As an aside, my Chevy Duramax had bosch injectors - the early ones had nearly 100% failures. I'm sure that cost them a pretty penny, and GM extended the warranty to 7 years and 200K miles. Every one of those trucks had the injectors replaced.

And I have a Winnebago on a Workhorse chassis - it has bosch brakes. They put phenolic pistons in the calipers and when they got hot the pistons would stick and burn up the brakes. NHTSB finally forced them to do a recall and replace them all. The new ones are fine, but that had to be another costly warranty coverage for bosch..

My opinion of them after firsthand experience is that they're a creative and technically proficient company, but too many failures after putting their product into real world use. I guess a bicycle is in a different category than a vehicle, but still. [shrug] For all I know it's a different company, but surely different divisions. Maybe like 3M, huh?

I would buy a Trek with bosch without batting an eye cuz I like Trek bikes and the company stands behind their product. The Trek stores around here are by far the nicest of all of them.

I have a new Trek Verve + it is my first E bike and I was skeptical but love it. Even though it has the smaller Bosch active line motor, I am amazed at the amount of boost it gives me when needed. It is incredibly smooth and quiet and I have ridden more than 60 miles on a single charge in PAS 1. Even on fairly steep climbs I have rarely had to put it in turbo mode. My local dealer was incredibly helpful and supportive and I test rode many bikes before I made my decision.

 

[The duke]

EDIT, YIKES, I COULD NOT MAKE HEADS OR TAILS OF MY OWN POST. THEN REALIZED I HAD USED MY IPHONE SE TINY SCREEN TO SPELL OUT A ONE FINGER WHISKEY INFUSED RESPONSE WITHOUT A SECOND LOOK.. MY MA SCHOOL ADMINISTRATOR WIFE WIGGED OUT WHEN I SHOWED HER.
Yeah, my iPHONE update combined with a stroke brain and a hurried “Post Reply” after 3 15 year old Balvenie single barrel on the rocks addled a response. mea culpa... maybe a better decider ring? Or 4 Oz. Might help? Better luck in the morning...<red faced and embarrassed> (but still a great glow...)

Note to self, Balvenie and eBikes don’t mix, whether riding or typing.

Red faced and embarrassed...

Hahaha...you're too funny.

 

[tomjasz]

Why not the Yamaha CrossConnect if you want the yamaha drive?

Frame geometry is critical for me. Flat foot and crank forward to the extent of a Trek Pure and Townie frames. While I'm impressed by the success of Bosch I still have a bad taste from the thousands I spent on the most troublesome appliances I've owned. Probably not a fair prejudice, but it does trouble me.

 

[Dewey]

Tom, take a look at the new Momentum Vida E+ Step-Through, Yamaha motor, more laid back seatpost than the Giant LaFree

 

[Alaskan]

Tom, Welcome to the dark side

Not sure of your budget or profile but the Riese & Muller Nevo is an incredibly comfortable bike with an upright geometry that might work for you. It has lots of drive chain options (derailleur, Nuvinci, Rohloff), one or two 500w batteries and comes quite complete including Abus lock with matching keys for the battery lock, solid lighting and a super accessible step through, Available with either a Bosch CX class 1 20mph or Performance Speed 29mph motor.

Nevo GT – For paths and peaks | Riese & Müller

Sporty, at home on or off the road and full of transport options. Striking design for town and country: the Nevo GT.

www.r-m.de

 

[tomjasz]

Tom, Welcome to the dark side

Not sure of your budget or profile but the Riese & Muller Nevo is an incredibly comfortable bike with an upright geometry that might work for you. It has lots of drive chain options (derailleur, Nuvinci, Rohloff), one or two 500w batteries and comes quite complete including Abus lock with matching keys for the battery lock, solid lighting and a super accessible step through, Available with either a Bosch CX class 1 20mph or Performance Speed 29mph motor.

Nevo GT – For paths and peaks | Riese & Müller

Sporty, at home on or off the road and full of transport options. Striking design for town and country: the Nevo GT.

www.r-m.de

View attachment 40200

Coming from kit building I’ve learned, for my tastes, $2500 builds a sweet bike with 20Ah battery and a MAC MOTOR with CA3 display and their programmable controller that fits in a Hailong battery case. I’m to stubborn to pay RM prices. And the real killer is the geometry. I’m a complete Townie geometry rider. So before any sticker shock I’m out based on no flat foot options. I retired out young with severe health issues making crank forward a must. I’m just finishing a build with very similar geometry to the RM. I’m in 2500$ without any labor costs, all mine, added. From my research and based on my likes and dislikes a Brose 8i Townie would be an ideal bike. I’ll never be critical of belt drives, but do have opinions that keep them out of my range of interests. My build is a one speed as all my riding is in a flat street city. I know that’s a contrarian opinion, but I’m guessing you’ve gathers by now that shoe fits. I’d not hesitate to suggest an RM bike to anyone that can tolerate the sticker shock. Acknowledging it may me one of the best brands out there.

Thanks for the suggestion, a cursory review by a potential buyer should reveal the high level of quality workmanship. I’ve only drooled on two on a shop sales floor.

The difficulty for me is overcoming being tied to an LBS for support. But the dark side is bearing down.

Thanks again!

 

[Alaskan]

Got it. Obviously I am not up on the geometry you favor. I should stop with the suggestions.

What a huge savings in cost, mess, weight and fuss to ride a bike with one speed!

I have a nice little bike workshop in my basement and do most of the installation, repair, replacement and adjustments on my bikes. I let an authorized Bosch guy do the sparky stuff. Although there is no R&M dealer within 80 miles of here, the local Trek shop is happy to work on my bikes. San Diego Fly Rides, my selling dealer, arranges direct payment for any work performed under warranty.

 

[pushkar]

@Thomas Jaszewski hey. You have been one of the key people I follow here. Thanks for some incredible posts.

Would a Bafang motor be an option ? Asking for ... you know ... science.

Let’s just say if $$ was not the issue. )

 

[PDXzap]

Would a Bafang motor be an option ?

I'm wondering the same thing. With 6 years of building under your belt and not wanting to be tied to a LBS, isn't a BBSHD a good option?

 

[Ebiker01]

Have you checked out the BH offerings ? They have the Atom range and in 2020 it looks like it’s coming with 720wh packs. 21700Cells.

Their models after 2017 are easily the most reliable ebikes in the Us . before they’ve had some issues. And Have great support techs.

One option would be to also get a non working mid drive motor or same ebike for parts. Then you can open it and replace as needed in case of failure.

 

[FlatSix911]

oK. 6 years of building and I’m very pleased, but I’m envious of the Brose, BOSCH and YAMAHA mid drive OWNERS. I’m READY TO pull the pin and add a OEM EBIKE TO THE STABLE. WHICH BUILDER FIRECT RESELLER USES ONE OF THESE DRIVE, OR IS THAT ENTIRELY OUT OF THE QUESTION? On second thought that’s not going to happen. As a 1/2 decade kit builder it’s hard to give up the DIY independence. I have a great Trek dealer so it’s likely that will be my dive into a factory built bike. I’m committed to Electra geometry so my choices are narrowed. None of the premium brands offer crank forward comfort feature.

Any ideas? Flat foot frame, Yamaha or Bosch powered. I still cringe over the complexity of a mid drive, but those system specs are impressive. My dream machine would be a 2006ish Electra Step through with a Yamaha drive. Yamaha only because I’ve always like Yamaha products, and Bosch appliances were a miserable and expensive choice with poor service. Because I do a bad job of keeping up with complete eBijes I need some ideas and suggestions. Nothing over $2500. I’m of the opinion some of the high end brands are not unlike high end watches. I bought an Omega when my jeweler suggested it was every bit as reliable a watch as Rolex. Without the name premium. And here I am 20 years later and forget to ever wear a useless item like a watch. I guess it boils down, ideally, to a Yamaha powered flat foot cruiser. (Jeez, I can’t believe I evolved, devolved?, to a non kit bike)

Here is a decent option based on your specifications... Mid Drive Yamaha, Step frame, less than $2K

Giant LaFree E+ 2 Review | ElectricBikeReview.com

Price: $2000.00 | Model Year: 2019 | An approachable and simple urban electric bike complete with fenders, a rear rack, and quality components

electricbikereview.com

 

[Feliz]

Have you checked out the BH offerings ? They have the Atom range and in 2020 it looks like it’s coming with 720wh packs. 21700Cells.

Their models after 2017 are easily the most reliable ebikes in the Us . before they’ve had some issues. And Have great support techs.

One option would be to also get a non working mid drive motor or same ebike for parts. Then you can open it and replace as needed in case of failure.

I agree 101, I have the 2019 AtomX and it's an awesome bike. I grabbed an extra battery for $500 of course it's a 700 wh but I'll be upset if they come out with a 720. I guess batteries are coming down. Still thinking of getting the carbon?

 

[FreeWheelie]

TBH I'd be looking at those crazy Bafang mid drives like the ones Frey and Luna put out

 

[Feliz]

TBH I'd be looking at those crazy Bafang mid drives like the ones Frey and Luna put out

I did feel that way and in fact have BBSHD and Ultra powered bikes, because I got back into mountain biking via EMTN bikes I now also have Yamaha PW-X and Brose bike's. I currently also have an eProdigy powered mid drive and formerly owned a Bosch CX powered bike I sold due to what I found to be a lack of power and other issues. My bike of choice to ride around town now is the Yamaha then the Brose, they're just better tuned. Next would be the BBSHD then the Ultra on my Watt Wagon Commuter which just isn't a well tuned motor, I would blame WW not Bafang as I've tried other Ultra powered bikes and they're spot on. The EProdigy is a powerhouse but again not well tuned. Ask any more questions if you wish

 

[Feliz]

oK. 6 years of building and I’m very pleased, but I’m envious of the Brose, BOSCH and YAMAHA mid drive OWNERS. I’m READY TO pull the pin and add a OEM EBIKE TO THE STABLE. WHICH BUILDER FIRECT RESELLER USES ONE OF THESE DRIVE, OR IS THAT ENTIRELY OUT OF THE QUESTION? On second thought that’s not going to happen. As a 1/2 decade kit builder it’s hard to give up the DIY independence. I have a great Trek dealer so it’s likely that will be my dive into a factory built bike. I’m committed to Electra geometry so my choices are narrowed. None of the premium brands offer crank forward comfort feature.

Any ideas? Flat foot frame, Yamaha or Bosch powered. I still cringe over the complexity of a mid drive, but those system specs are impressive.

My dream machine would be a 2006ish Electra Step through with a Yamaha drive. Yamaha only because I’ve always like Yamaha products, and Bosch appliances were a miserable and expensive choice with poor service.

Because I do a bad job of keeping up with complete eBijes I need some ideas

and suggestions.

Nothing over $2500. I’m of the opinion some of the high end brands are not unlike high end watches. I bought an Omega when my jeweler suggested it was every bit as reliable a watch as Rolex. Without the name premium.
And here I am 20 years later and forget to ever wear a useless item like a watch.

I guess it boils down, ideally, to a Yamaha powered flat foot cruiser.

(Jeez, I can’t believe I evolved, devolved?, to a non kit bike)

Tom, tonight send your post first and then open the bottle, I hope it's Canadian whiskey........it's better.