Looking for a fast ebike primarily for commuting and possibly some trail riding

Stefan Mikes said:
A Class 3 e-bike requires pedalling and has top assistance speed of 28 mph. Class 2 is throttle only, 20 mph limit.
High speed and mountain-biking specifications are to some extent contradictory. That is why Specialized, Trek or Giant high-speed pedelecs are not e-MTBs even if these brands are so much experienced in mountain bikes. It would be very hard to combine both worlds in a single e-bike. Good news is high speed pedelecs from mountain bike manufacturers use components and geometry borrowed from MTB. Trek Allant 9.9 would be a good choice.
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I agree with Stefan. Take a ride. That is the best way for you to make a decision. For the past two years my wife and I have had a Trek SuperCommuter 8+, class 3, urban commuter. We use them mostly for road and bike trails. Love love love them. We have run into some rough dirt tracks, and the wide tires allow them to be fine with that, but I would not do any mountain biking with them. I even rode solo from NJ to Vermont, staying in hotels when I first got the bike, total fun. We are planning more bike trekking with them.

My SC was stolen off the car rack while visiting Boston in October. Just took delivery today of the Allant 9.9+. Only a short ride, so we will see if I like it as well as my SC. Actually, I think I will.

Why did I get the SC and Allant? I wanted 1) brand name motors (Bosch, Brose, etc), 2) a bike that was designed to be electric (not one just cobbled together), 3) a large manufacturer that would be around, and 4) a large dealer network for support. There are certainly some great bikes out there that are mail order or made by small players. I just valued the above items more than saving a bit or having a Rohloff speedhub (which is very nice). Everyone has a different view that is right for them.
 
Any reason you couldn't be looking for two separate bikes? As an avid mountain biker (Diamondback Release 3) and enthusiastic ebike commuter (Izip Moda) it seems like you would be making an unacceptable amount of compromise trying to do both well with one bike. I would not want to ride single track loaded with racks for commuting, and i would not want to commute without racks. While I have taken my Izip on chunky desert two track it beat the crud out of me (and probably the bike), but my tastes run to a fully rigid commuter (YRMV). For what it's worth I have less than 5k invested between the two by shopping wisely and both are highly competent for what they are. Sounds like your budget could allow for more.

FWIW my only e-mountain bike experience was demoing a Specialized Turbo Levo, which i would recommend without hesitation for the dirt but would be far less than ideal as a commuter.
 
My latest thoughts are to see if my LBS can get me a Trek police model. It’s a hard tail but it would likely work well for my high speed commuting needs. I don’t need to carry much of anything with me to work other than a small backpack, and the ride will only be about 10 minutes.

And as far as mountain biking, I’m going to continue to ride my non eBikes on the single track, but I kind of like the idea that my eBike would be ok on the trails for a friend or for me in the future.

My other thought is to test ride one of those fast Bull mountain bikes.

Many thanks to everyone who has replied. Great food for thought!
 
Wow! I just looked at the Luna Apollo mountain ebike and it is very fast.

One question though. Is it legal? The web site says it goes over 36 mph.
 
White Beard said:
Wow! I just looked at the Luna Apollo mountain ebike and it is very fast.

One question though. Is it legal? The web site says it goes over 36 mph.
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Legal where? Most states no. Private property and some states, yes. Every municipality who can override state law? Very unlikely!
 
White Beard said:
My latest thoughts are to see if my LBS can get me a Trek police model. It’s a hard tail but it would likely work well for my high speed commuting needs. I don’t need to carry much of anything with me to work other than a small backpack, and the ride will only be about 10 minutes.

And as far as mountain biking, I’m going to continue to ride my non eBikes on the single track, but I kind of like the idea that my eBike would be ok on the trails for a friend or for me in the future.

My other thought is to test ride one of those fast Bull mountain bikes.

Many thanks to everyone who has replied. Great food for thought!
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At this time I wouldn't get police , Bosch has a new motor coming out so unless they are giving you a discount I think 4K is too much for it.

There are high speed FS bikes like this https://www.raleighusa.com/lore-ds-ie around(This is basically kodiak with the speed motor, its price may go below $4K Early 2020 so you may want to wait a month or so and save 1-2K).

Also as long as it has the same mid drive, for example Bosch, the bicycle will be similar in terms of speed, acceleration (unless you go drop bars). So going for hardtail is not gaining you anything in that regard(not going to be faster), it will also be of similar weight to FS counterparts.

Since you don't have much experience with ebikes you have the misconception that the speed limit is what makes a bike fast. The mainstream mid drives like Bosch ,Brose ,Shimano have mostly 250-350W output and keeping 28mph requires a significant effort on your part so don't just fixate on the speed cutout. Also anything that cuts above 28mph is not legal on most public roads.


Test ride them and you will have the best idea.
 
Johnny said:
The mainstream mid drives like Bosch ,Brose ,Shimano have mostly 250-350W output and keeping 28mph requires a significant effort on your part so don't just fixate on the speed cutout.
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While keeping at 28 mph is indeed hard @Johnny, keeping at 23 mph is fairly easy. At least that's my experience with Turbo Vado 5.0. To be honest, I have never tried riding past 26 mph on flat good tarmac and it was only for a while.
 
Stefan Mikes said:
While keeping at 28 mph is indeed hard @Johnny, keeping at 23 mph is fairly easy. At least that's my experience with Turbo Vado 5.0. To be honest, I have never tried riding past 26 mph on flat good tarmac and it was only for a while.
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Although we have different motors(I believe yours is 350W Brose ) their power output is comparable and I agree that keeping 22-24mph on flats is easy even on Tour. On Eco I find myself hovering around 20-22mph most of the time with an effort that I would not consider much.

For a long time I also didn't want to exceed 24 but on safe , straight paths it can become boring. Although I would not call it hard, when I am around 26-28mph Nyon shows 250-300w on my part and my heart rate tells me that I am in the cardio zone. Of course wind/ inclines can decrease your speed significantly.
 
Alaskan said:
Thomas, Just curious what proprietary components you're referring to. The only thing about the bike that is strictly proprietary is the frame, something true of almost all bikes. I have three R&M bikes and all components that I have seen on them are available from just about anywhere. The only ones that are a little hard to source are Enviolo and Rohloff but even they can be purchased directly without having to go through R&M. Granted the components chosen by Riese & Mulle are mostly top shelf but they are still available off that shelf.
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Could you expand on what you mean by proprietary (or not)? For example, I consider the Bosch motor to be proprietary, the Bafang much less so.

I decided on the road that I didn’t want the front light on all day. This simple configuration change will cost you with a Bosch bike because we are not permitted any diagnostic or configuration tools. I recently had a diagnostic report run that indicated that one of my PowerPacks almost reached a critically high operating temperature. I had no warning en route. The charging plugs are proprietary and not sold to the gp AFAIK. The Suntour skewer can and will get stuck. Many ppl tried to remove mine but only a bike stand and mallet did the trick.

This is not an R&M vs WattWagons comment. I like my R&M enough to continue to try and improve on some of the issues that need to be addressed for distance touring, but I think there are valid arguments to be made for considering a more open system. I would lose the more refined Bosch system that I do like , but I’d get more control/functionality. I’d be able to install my rack of choice, and so on.
 
Alaskan said:
Thomas, Just curious what proprietary components you're referring to. The only thing about the bike that is strictly proprietary is the frame, something true of almost all bikes. I have three R&M bikes and all components that I have seen on them are available from just about anywhere. The only ones that are a little hard to source are Enviolo and Rohloff but even they can be purchased directly without having to go through R&M. Granted the components chosen by Riese & Mulle are mostly top shelf but they are still available off that shelf.
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It's the battery scheme I refer to. I think it sucks being locked into a single source battery. Making me completely dependent on a single source seriously bothers me. I've swallowed not being able to repair a motor as the mileage riders are getting is phenomenal. BUT the overpriced batteries are just too much for this rider to swallow. Wattwagon uses one of the best makers available. I have EM3ev batteries starting their 6th year. Of the scores of their batteries I've sold, I've had one issue, and that was a simple plug and play BMS replacement. Built to be repaired, if needed. But seldom needed. Now in fairness Bosch have an extremely tough standard for their batteries. Any issue and the battery is rejected and the cells go on the secondary market. But not the packs, no chance with bosch of getting a refurb. Still, I'm happiest with something I or a good shop can rebuild or repair.
 
Thomas Jaszewski said:
It's the battery scheme I refer to. I think it sucks being locked into a single source battery. Making me completely dependent on a single source seriously bothers me. I've swallowed not being able to repair a motor as the mileage riders are getting is phenomenal. BUT the overpriced batteries are just too much for this rider to swallow. Wattwagon uses one of the best makers available. I have EM3ev batteries starting their 6th year. Of the scores of their batteries I've sold, I've had one issue, and that was a simple plug and play BMS replacement. Built to be repaired, if needed. But seldom needed. Now in fairness Bosch have an extremely tough standard for their batteries. Any issue and the battery is rejected and the cells go on the secondary market. But not the packs, no chance with bosch of getting a refurb. Still, I'm happiest with something I or a good shop can rebuild or repair.
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I certainly understand your reservation regarding Bosch batteries. In fairness this is a Bosch proprietary issue common to all bikes that use Bosch ebike equipment rather than being an issue with a particular brand of bike.

It will indeed be painful when I get to the point of having to replace my batteries as Bosch seem inordinately proud of theirs and there are no aftermarket batteries available for Bosch powered bikes. Fortunately, even with the relatively high mileage (3,900 miles on one pair and 2700 miles on the other since March of this year) I have been racking up, my battery range has not seen any perceptible diminution nor have I had one hiccup or error message on my bikes. I do read, with great interest, the posts of others who have had issues but for me, none to date. Being captive to their high battery replacement cost is not fun but having such a reliable system, one I have been able to depend on for some time now with heavy use, is worth the extra cost to me.
 
Alaskan said:
I certainly understand your reservation regarding Bosch batteries. In fairness this is a Bosch proprietary issue common to all bikes that use Bosch ebike equipment rather than being an issue with a particular brand of bike.

It will indeed be painful when I get to the point of having to replace my batteries as Bosch seem inordinately proud of theirs and there are no aftermarket batteries available for Bosch powered bikes. Fortunately, even with the relatively high mileage (3,900 miles on one pair and 2700 miles on the other since March of this year) I have been racking up, my battery range has not seen any perceptible diminution nor have I had one hiccup or error message on my bikes. I do read, with great interest, the posts of others who have had issues but for me, none to date. Being captive to their high battery replacement cost is not fun but having such a reliable system, one I have been able to depend on for some time now with heavy use, is worth the extra cost to me.
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Sure, as long as we have fat pockets... I can afford whatever bike I want, but I still believe making batteries a mystery and overpricing, sometimes doubling a fair price, only hurts the growth.
Bosch is the odd man out. IMO they are the EM3ev of proprietary batteries. Rejecting all those packs dramatically affects the price. Good for those that can afford $6000-$8000 for a bike. But to many lower-priced brands are making batteries hard to replace.
 
Johnny said:
That is a solid bike for the price, full suspension with good components, the design looks nice, 840wh battery and that Max motor. A bike like this would probably fit nicely to the op's needs(riding on trails and high speed commuting).
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I want one too now !
 
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