Long Range E-Bikes ?

[Catalyzt]

This is the bike that I use for what are for me 'longer rides.' It has a bar that allows for changing positions to prevent fatigue. The saddle has gel and ventilation. It can be ridden clipped in or un-clipped with double sided pedals. It has low rolling resistance tires that can take broken pavement or trails and it has an air fork. It can hold a second battery if I want, but I have found that it is more advantageous to get rid of the added weight of a second battery. The rural roads around here are very rough. That is why this bike is beefy. Three hours of rough roads is good enough for me.
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That is yet another really sweet ride, Pedal! How much does it weigh? Estimated weight without the rear rack and fenders?

That would probably almost work here. By Griffith Park standards, that would be a 'rough' not a 'very rough' road... IMHO, 'very rough' means deeper potholes that have not been patched, often hidden in deep shadows, more loose gravel, and blowing piles of fine, slippery dirt that blow around to unexpected places. But I bet if I slapped straight bars & hydraulic brakes on something like that, and if it could accommodate a 2.2 (ish) tire, and a serious suspension seatpost (RedShift or similar), that could handle about anything I ride... probably a bit more unstable on some of the steep descents, but entirely workable.

For me, my range currently is easy to remember: With my 418Wh battery, a little better than 40 miles with 4,000 feet of vertical... call it 42 and 4,200. I think what I actually did was 36 miles with 4,300 of vertical, and still had an estimated 12 miles of range.

I wonder how your bike would do uphill on Brand Park Motorway-- plenty of 8-14% with very short little sections of 18-22%. My issue now is that while I can get to the top of the ridge, and even to Verdugo Peak, I'm getting home from the ride with only 8 miles of range, and I'd love to explore further up there. I know that I can probably go a ways past Verdugo Peak and return, or even return from Verdugo Peak and add part of Las Flores Motorway... but not the whole loop.

It I took a ride that kissed 40 miles, I'd have a bug-out plan: If I was running low on watts, I'd probably arrange for my wife to meet me at a brew-pub on the way home with my charger, eat a lazy dinner outside as I recharged, and then be good for the last 8 miles, which includes about 800 feet of climbing right at the end.

Without all that vertical, I'm sure this battery could do 60 miles or better.

That is with a lot of human watts as part of the equation. And Stefan, on a bike like mine, I automatically shut off the battery during descents and even long flat segments if I have a lot of momentum... I think passive drain is very minimal, but why not? The switch is right below my thumb.

 

[PedalUma]

That is yet another really sweet ride, Pedal! How much does it weigh? Estimated weight without the rear rack and fenders?

I have a heavier battery today than I usually use. It is 36V and 10.5Ah. That is 378Wh. I weighed that bike just now with the rack, the rack is heavy, and the fenders, they are light. The front is 19.8 pounds, the back 23.7. That puts the total for this electric Chisel to 43.5 or 19,73Kg. Thule says the rack is 2.5 pounds. It seams about twice that heft. I removed the straight bar, hydro brakes and 11-speed cassette. This 9-sp is stronger with the same range and the mechanical brakes lower maintenance. It had an HD Kw at first, now it is a TS, torque sensing. I have made 35 pound mid-drive electric bikes, but those are smaller builds, and only for clean tarmac.

 

[indianajo]

comfort will be important at all the points you touch the bike. This doesn't always mean soft and cushy, the saddle and bars should fit you well (right height, right width, right angles, etc.) and the only way you'll know this is experience in regularly riding beyond about 2 hrs.
Beyond that your into the law of diminishing (but not insignificant) returns. Use efficient tires (with as high a pressure as practical), keep your weight down (try and forgo many of the "extras" many folks regularly ride with), and despite an upright riding position think about your aerodynamics, so ideally no additional bags and such, and no clothing flapping around in the wind.

Your Mommy come pick you up when you have flats or mechanical issues? You take the bike into the toilet room with you? I ride off the edge of the cell phone coverage, and my bike wouldn't fit in the wife's car even if she wasn't working most days. I carry 3 tubes, a pump, enough tools & fasteners to repair anything but a broken chain or a broken seat mount (happened once), rain gear, 60 oz water and a 7 lb 6' cable to lock the bike to a utility pole or fence if I have to walk out without it and find cell service for a tow. 2 big bags. Bike & kit weight without cargo, 94 lb. I ride 55 mm tires at 55 psi since cargo bikes don't come with suspensions. & I ride knobbies on road because they get about 1/4 the flats of city tires, as long as the knobs are taller than 3/32". I break all the rules & ride 30 hilly miles twice weekly, and might go 45 miles one way to a concert (with a charger) if I solve the hip soreness problem. It is nice 30 years olds can sit on hard seats. I'm 71 and the fat melted off my hips age 62. They don't make a seat soft enough for my bike to avoid pain in the glutes. No, cloud9 won't fit, the seat post is non-standard diameter. Seat has to fit rails. I use pool floats for hand grips and they still go numb.

 

[e-boy]

at first I was disappointed that the Vado switched from 700c to 650b .
but the roads are so bad where I live 650b may be better .

 

[Stefan Mikes]

And Stefan, on a bike like mine, I automatically shut off the battery during descents and even long flat segments if I have a lot of momentum... I think passive drain is very minimal, but why not? The switch is right below my thumb.

You do not even need to do it as long as you don't pedal downhill. With the pedals in stationary, the battery draw is exactly zero (I can measure that value on my e-bikes with an app). It is because mid-drives and PAS hub drives cut the motor off if the e-bike is not pedalled.

at first I was disappointed that the Vado switched from 700c to 650b .
but the roads are so bad where I live 650b may be better .

It is a good move from Specialized in my opinion (many luxury e-bikes are on 27.5" wheels, just look at Riese & Muller). It will enable you for the future swap to, for example, Schwalbe Johnny Watts tyres. I liked the new Mastermind display with a whole page devoted to useful battery calculations, including not only quite precise battery range but even the Range Trend. For instance, riding into the wind will be indicated by information you actually are losing the range. Or, riding downhill puts the Range Trend on the positive. I also liked the new 710 Wh battery that effectively increases the range with 17.5% compared to the 2021 model.

 

[e-boy]

You do not even need to do it as long as you don't pedal downhill. With the pedals in stationary, the battery draw is exactly zero (I can measure that value on my e-bikes with an app). It is because mid-drives and PAS hub drives cut the motor off if the e-bike is not pedalled.


It is a good move from Specialized in my opinion (many luxury e-bikes are on 27.5" wheels, just look at Riese & Muller). It will enable you for the future swap to, for example, Schwalbe Johnny Watts tyres. I liked the new Mastermind display with a whole page devoted to useful battery calculations, including not only quite precise battery range but even the Range Trend. For instance, riding into the wind will be indicated by information you actually are losing the range. Or, riding downhill puts the Range Trend on the positive. I also liked the new 710 Wh battery that effectively increases the range with 17.5% compared to the 2021 model.

I ride on pavement only .
Are 2022 Vado/SL rims and tires tubeless ready ?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I ride on pavement only .
Are 2022 Vado/SL rims and tires tubeless ready ?

As far as I know:

• Vado 5.0 2022 is not tubeless ready
• Vado SL 5.0 is tubeless ready.

 

[mclewis1]

Your Mommy come pick you up when you have flats or mechanical issues? You take the bike into the toilet room with you? I ride off the edge of the cell phone coverage, and my bike wouldn't fit in the wife's car even if she wasn't working most days. I carry 3 tubes, a pump, enough tools & fasteners to repair anything but a broken chain or a broken seat mount (happened once), rain gear, 60 oz water and a 7 lb 6' cable to lock the bike to a utility pole or fence if I have to walk out without it and find cell service for a tow. 2 big bags. Bike & kit weight without cargo, 94 lb. I ride 55 mm tires at 55 psi since cargo bikes don't come with suspensions. & I ride knobbies on road because they get about 1/4 the flats of city tires, as long as the knobs are taller than 3/32". I break all the rules & ride 30 hilly miles twice weekly, and might go 45 miles one way to a concert (with a charger) if I solve the hip soreness problem. It is nice 30 years olds can sit on hard seats. I'm 71 and the fat melted off my hips age 62. They don't make a seat soft enough for my bike to avoid pain in the glutes. No, cloud9 won't fit, the seat post is non-standard diameter. Seat has to fit rails. I use pool floats for hand grips and they still go numb.

Now Jo, your going to have to watch that curmudgeon attitude, folks are going to think that you're no fun at all . I just think that not everyone needs to carry everything but the kitchen sink when they ride.

Over the past 30 years I've regularly ridden longer distances (100-160k) and while early on I was a very minimalist rider I have always carried enough to keep me safe and get me home. Today that's a spare tube, a tube/tire repair kit, basic tools, spare fasteners, tape, chain repair, bit of lube, and a small pump are all packed in a medium sized seat bag (along with some simple first aid materials, a phone, money, ID, contact and medical info), and sometimes also a minimal jacket if the weather looks "iffy". When I ride longer distances on an ebike I now use a lighter more efficient road ebike setup (45lbs with everything mentioned above but me) but for general conditions around town I use an all weather ebike with even more robustness and redundancies (wider tires, fenders, rack, pannier, etc. - 55-60lbs).

The "extras" that I referred to in my earlier post that I forgo on my ebikes are things like big mirrors, fixed lights (I have them and mount them when they're needed), extra electronics, suspension stems and posts, big floppy seats, etc. But don't get me wrong, I appreciate the extra safety and comfort some of these items offer, I just also appreciate having a bike that I don't get a hernia from picking it up. There are however plenty of times when I'm also riding a 90lb bike (like when I'm carrying the weekly groceries) but I prefer the lighter weight for the times when I'm not acting as a pack mule. Seating comfort is a very personal item, but coming from a long history of cycling I prefer appropriate fit over cushiness, others might be different.

I find it's a fairly common situation for many ebike riders to accumulate accessories to improve comfort and convenience. This makes sense as the extra weight from these accessories doesn't have nearly the same negative impact on an ebike as compared to a non assisted setup ... I just prefer not to follow that route.

I mention all this because we've been talking about long range ebikes and while extra weight isn't as big a deal as on a regular bike it does affect efficiency (and thus battery range) and also makes a difference to bike feel and for me the general enjoyment of riding a bike for a longer period of time ... and I prefer to enjoy my rides whether they are long or short.

 

[6zfshdb]

I ride off the edge of the cell phone coverage, and my bike wouldn't fit in the wife's car even if she wasn't working most days. I carry 3 tubes, a pump, enough tools & fasteners to repair anything but a broken chain or a broken seat mount (happened once), rain gear, 60 oz water and a 7 lb 6' cable to lock the bike to a utility pole or fence if I have to walk out without it and find cell service for a tow. 2 big bags. Bike & kit weight without cargo, 94 lb. I ride 55 mm tires at 55 psi since cargo bikes don't come with suspensions. & I ride knobbies on road because they get about 1/4 the flats of city tires, as long as the knobs are taller than 3/32". I break all the rules & ride 30 hilly miles twice weekly, and might go 45 miles one way to a concert (with a charger) if I solve the hip soreness problem. It is nice 30 years olds can sit on hard seats. I'm 71 and the fat melted off my hips age 62. They don't make a seat soft enough for my bike to avoid pain in the glutes. No, cloud9 won't fit, the seat post is non-standard diameter. Seat has to fit rails. I use pool floats for hand grips and they still go numb.

Although I don't usually carry this much on my bike when I ride, I do believe in being prepared. I often haul my bike to some pretty remote locations and my pickup is nothing short of a rolling bike repair shop. I even carry a spare bike on some trips.

I rode the Greenbrier River Trail in WV. a few years ago and the trip was almost spoiled by a broken deraileur. I walked the bike almost 2 miles to the nearest cross road only to find it was just as deserted as the trail. No houses, no traffic and no cell service. I started walking the bike on the road toward the nearest town which, according to my GPS, was 14 miles away. Finally, a local farmer came by and kindly offered to help. The two of us put the bike in the back of his old truck and he drove me back to where my pickup was parked. I can still smell the manure on the bike all these years later.

It turns out, the nearest LBS was 42 miles away and they didn't have the derailleur I needed anyway. I bought a few tools though and was able to cobble on the bike to get a few gears working. Otherwise, the 8 hour drive down to WV. would have been wasted. Lesson learned.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Although I don't usually carry this much on my bike when I ride, I do believe in being prepared. I often haul my bike to some pretty remote locations and my pickup is nothing short of a rolling bike repair shop. I even carry a spare bike on some trips.

I rode the Greenbrier River Trail in WV. a few years ago and the trip was almost spoiled by a broken deraileur. I walked the bike almost 2 miles to the nearest cross road only to find it was just as deserted as the trail. No houses, no traffic and no cell service. I started walking the bike on the road toward the nearest town which, according to my GPS, was 14 miles away. Finally, a local farmer came by and kindly offered to help. The two of us put the bike in the back of his old truck and he drove me back to where my pickup was parked. I can still smell the manure on the bike all these years later.

It turns out, the nearest LBS was 42 miles away and they didn't have the derailleur I needed anyway. I bought a few tools though and was able to cobble on the bike to get a few gears working. Otherwise, the 8 hour drive down to WV. would have been wasted. Lesson learned.

There are things no one can predict such as a broken spoke...

 

[mclewis1]

There are things no one can predict such as a broken spoke...

We seem to treat a broken spoke as a pretty big deal these days ... but it wasn't that long ago a broken spoke was a pretty typical (but not too common) fix, so much so that many custom built road frames and particularly those designed for touring came with standoffs to carry spare spokes.

I still carry a small spoke wrench in my kit, and I don't think I'd be too concerned about tying off one or two broken spokes with a zip tie and tweaking the alignment of the wheel, especially now that we mostly use disc brakes (making it much easier to keep adequate braking available). Perhaps with the more heavily loaded wheels on ebikes we're not considering this type of emergency fix as often?

For me a broken spoke fix is a temporary situation, one done so that I can get home safely. Trueing a wheel is something I leave to a few folks I know at my LBSs. Having access to a reasonably priced service has meant I haven't had to invest the time and materials to do it myself.

 

[PedalUma]

I normally don't take any tools on long rides. What I do instead is go over the bike before a big ride. Setup for avoiding flats. It is true that if you took a mobile bike shop with you where ever you went, you still would not be able to anticipate every contingency.

 

[BlackHand]

Perhaps it is just me, dodgeman, but I don't think 1000 Wh is enough for 80 miles ridden by an average e-biker in reasonable time.

Flat-bar bike, 90% gravel ride, 2 500wh batteries. Swapped batteries at 40 mi with 15% showing and the second read around 60% at the end of the ride. Mostly riding in Eco, except the last 10-15 miles in Tour because I was hungry and had too much battery left!

On longer road rides I find 500wh is not quite enough to go as far as I want at the speed I like to pedal at. 40+ mile rides are a lot less enjoyable when you have to be careful not to go too fast. 625wh would be good but 700-800wh would be perfect. I think it's a shame that Specialized did not make the SL range extender compatible with their full power bikes

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Your ride data Blackhand only prove how important the rider's own input is! (Your average leg power is far higher than mine!) You also could do handsome elevation gain and good average speed with your 1 kWh in the batteries!

Now, an anecdote. It was "the last ride of Summer 2020". My brother rode a Giant Trance E+ with a 500 Wh battery (and I was carrying spares for both of us in my Vado 5.0 panniers). Besides, it was a mixed terrain ride involving some off-road. When the time for my battery swap came -- and I offered a battery swap to my brother, too -- Jacek discovered he forgot taking the battery lock key with him... Guess what? He made 75 miles and completed the ride with 25% of his battery left! Only illustrating how rider's leg power important is!

Still, we all are not made equal.

I think it's a shame that Specialized did not make the SL range extender compatible with their full power bikes

There are several reasons they cannot do it. SL RE is 48 V while full power Specialized e-bikes are 36 V. Also, the charging system on full power Spec e-bikes switches the power off while an external power source is connected to the charging port.

 

[john peck]

I simply modified my rear rack to carry a 2nd battery.

 

[Catalyzt]

You do not even need to do it as long as you don't pedal downhill. With the pedals in stationary, the battery draw is exactly zero (I can measure that value on my e-bikes with an app). It is because mid-drives and PAS hub drives cut the motor off if the e-bike is not pedalled.

Thanks, I wondered about that! I may actually be using more battery power by pressing the switch (even though it's probably next to nothing!)

On my hub drive kit bike, the passive drain is a factor even when the throttle is not activated.

When it might make sense to turn off the battery is if I am pedaling at the end end of a long downhill run and have a long flat stretch where "Eco" is providing power I don't really need-- like, it's using power to go 17.5 MPH instead of 16.8, or where there's no sensible reason I can't add pedal 10% harder and save some electrons. There is one section of Crystal Springs Drive that is like this-- seems like I can ride the moto with no power for about two miles pedaling with minimal effort, and wind up going a lot faster than I would on my old Raleigh.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

On my hub drive kit bike, the passive drain is a factor even when the throttle is not activated.

I'm not familiar with your system but there is no passive drain in mid-motors I'm familiar with (Specialized and Yamaha). Bosch or Shimano cannot be any diffferent. The only passive drain is for e-bike lighting but that factor is totally negligeable with the modern LEDs.

With mid-drives we are talking about here it is never recommended to switch the system off for pedalling downhill. You just activate the Off Mode but the system is up and running. The instant current value can be seen in the Mission Control app. (Prior to 2022 models, you could see your own and the motor power in the BLEvo app, and even get the data to Excel post-ride). And that battery draw is zero if you either do not pedal or the Off Mode has been switched on.

It is amazing how much the range increases on long downhill rides! The 2022 Como and Vado are equipped with the new MasterMind TCD display. There is a whole display page devoted to the battery range. Not only the current range is recalculated as you ride but there is a Range Trend data field, too. If you ride uphill, you see the range figure go down and the trend arrow is pointing down. As soon as you start descending, the arrow turns up (I could see that on the 2022 Tero I demo rode this year).

The Range data page on MasterMind TCD. The pink colour indicates the Smart Assistance Mode (you enter the distance to be ridden and predicted elevation gain in Mission Control, and the Mission Control automatically manipulates assistance to achieve your goal with predefined battery % at the end of the ride). Of course, Smart Control would make you slower if the objective could not be met at faster pace. (In emergency situations, the user can activate the Turbo mode). As you can see, the Battery Consumption field is null if you do not pedal.

I could use the Smart Control on my older Turbo e-bikes and I only don't have the Range data page in my displays (but I can use the BLEvo app for the same). The reason I'm not using Smart Control is it is me who wants to control the e-bike

 

[opimax]

i ride on avg 80 miles per trip,almost every other day. being an older, never “fit” naturally the slowest person in all athletic endeavors I have tried i have solved this issue by just buying a total of 3 batteries per bike and making sure I have 2 panniers which fit. I have a min of 90 miles of range at higher speeds on any of the bikes I have. I can go further if I try. This doesn’t work for everybody but I would think it would be a good way of thinking….high miles is a cost, similar to the statement “cost of doing business”

i see this thread as finding the most efficient way to get high mileage , not my throw batteries at the problem the way I do. 1 additional thought in this is it simplifies an issue and more so removes one stress in my life (range) I put on all batteries almost every ride even a planned 5 miler, plans change

 

[mclewis1]

i ride on avg 80 miles per trip,almost every other day. being an older, never “fit” naturally the slowest person in all athletic endeavors I have tried i have solved this issue by just buying a total of 3 batteries per bike and making sure I have 2 panniers which fit. I have a min of 90 miles of range at higher speeds on any of the bikes I have. I can go further if I try. This doesn’t work for everybody but I would think it would be a good way of thinking….high miles is a cost, similar to the statement “cost of doing business”

i see this thread as finding the most efficient way to get high mileage , not my throw batteries at the problem the way I do. 1 additional thought in this is it simplifies an issue and more so removes one stress in my life (range) I put on all batteries almost every ride even a planned 5 miler, plans change

Meh, I wouldn't feel the need to be defensive. Your strategy works for you (and likely more than a few others).

On the whole I find it interesting that even with an ebike the underlying desire for efficiency that is so prevalent in analog bikes is still there (just to lesser or greater degrees depending on the individual).

 

[opimax]

Only defensive I feel is having enough money and to do this while others are not as fortunate, some may not want to carry the weight and the bags.

having additional batteries may extend the life of all the batteries . If you have 1 or even 2 you beat the batteries up if you are using them to extreme every time, long range cost saving but initial higher cost