Known Issues & Problems with Watt Wagons Products + Help, Solutions & Fixes

[Acme]

Your original bike cannot be made. Pushkar spent a great deal of time and money trying but it is just not possible. He offered you a Hydra but you refused. He is now trying to refund you your money. Do you have any idea how lucky you are he has not gone bankrupt and all your money would be gone.
To be clear he has spent a lot of money trying to supply you a bike. He didn’t just put your money in an account and draw interest on it. It was spent. He is going to eat all that and is giving you money from profits he is making on other models.
Are you really being reasonable?

 

[Zachdds]

Your original bike cannot be made. Pushkar spent a great deal of time and money trying but it is just not possible. He offered you a Hydra but you refused. He is now trying to refund you your money. Do you have any idea how lucky you are he has not gone bankrupt and all your money would be gone.
To be clear he has spent a lot of money trying to supply you a bike. He didn’t just put your money in an account and draw interest on it. It was spent. He is going to eat all that and is giving you money from profits he is making on other models.
Are you really being reasonable?

I personally think he is being reasonable. Pushkar literally promised him 24 hours ago that he would have a small bit of the refund the next morning. The fact that he wasn’t even reached out to, is just not right. You don’t know his situation. He was told it would be sent yesterday morning and here we are.

acme, maybe ww has been keeping you in the loop more then the founders. Care to explain what all money ww spent on the Helios project? We have just sort of assumed it went to securing parts that went on the hydra. I was told the money that went into r&d would be returned.

as for taking a hydra instead, they are 2 different bikes. One was to originally have had very heavy duty front and rear racks for hauling. One is a full suspension mtb that would struggle with 30 pounds on a rack. At 6k a person should get the bike they want.

The founders paid for a bike 16 months ago that currently has no timeline for when it will be released. The specs of which look nothing like what was sold to us. People can spin it as poor watts wagon, but in my book they got the use of tens of thousands of dollars and the founders have ended up with absolutely nothing except a waiting game to try to get their money back and even that has come with false promises.

What do you feel the op owes ww for the headache and interest free use of thousands of dollars? What does ww owe him? I think honesty and timely updates would be the bare minimum. Maybe something came up yesterday and the money wasn’t available, would a quick message to the op been too difficult instead of him hitting refresh on his bank’s website?

 

[Acme]

I have not spoke with Pushkar about this particular situation but I have had lengthy conversations with him about the issues with designing and getting the frames delivered., I own a business. I have done R and D more than a few times and I know how expensive it is. I spent over $100,000 in six months on one project with literally nothing to show for it. Luckily it was my own money and I only had to explain it to my wife. Pushkar‘s has over promised, mainly a $10,000 custom carbon bicycle for $5700. He has relied on promises made by overseas suppliers and they have consistently let him down. His communication has been slow but he is steadily working to improve his company and produce bicycles. Over the last year and a half prices have skyrocketed and he has not raised prices on anyone who has deposited money with respect to the Hydra bicycles, he has simply eaten the extra. With all the problems trying to build the Helios, it seems you have just expected him to eat all that, correct?
As a founder you invested in some thing that was not in existence at the time. By not in existence I mean it was only on paper. Maybe I am just more realistic because I have some familiarity with what is necessary to bring something like this into production but I cannot picture how this would go off without a hitch in the best of times let alone given the current economic cluster that we live in today. Are you being realistic? He never said he would not refund you the money and he is working in that direction. He has not turned off his phone and shut his doors. This particular promise is 24 hours late?
The statement:
“Watt Wagons) has had $5799 USD of my money since 9 April 2020 and has not produced the bike I ordered for over 1.5 years. He has repeatedly broken his promises with excuses and is not refunding my money”
Is factually accurate and if you had $50,000 to throw away on an attorney you might be able to make such a one sided accusation and get a judgment against Pushkar for it. Oddly enough people who would bring such a ridiculous case would act like a winner even though they lost 10 times the amount they eventually collected. There’s a certain amount of ego that goes with wealth. I’m also a lawyer.
However as you don’t appear to want to spend an extra couple thousand dollars to buy a titanium Crosstour I’m guessing you live in real world where it helps to be reasonable to get what we want. To begin with you could ask yourself: did I assume there was any risk by placing an order for a product that was still in R&D at significantly under market value?

 

[DublinGulch]

When anger rules, and a very serious "buyer beware warning" is sent out, there is a possibility of incalculable damage, that can affect a lot of people and families, not just future buyers. Doors shut, Minds shut, and the buyer (at best) becomes the last in line for a refund. Mistakes were made and I am sure that more mistakes will not make the situation better, and it is a mistake to hasten the possible demise of a much needed entrepreneur and his entire company. I have a Hydra and I will say it was worth the wait, which is saying a lot. Not just because of the product itself but the small business behind it, the story of the horrendous covid issues and the associated world supply shortages. Even your problems and my issues with Pushkar, all become a part of of a story and how a great product either makes it or not. Imagine a world (and we are slowly getting there) where only huge and impersonal corporations offer a middle of the road and overpriced product ......I am sorry for your horrible situation and you have the right to be frustrated, but what good will it do, except short term satisfaction, to scream across all social medias how you have been wronged? If Pushkar wasn't a good person, and a human being that make mistakes, I would not post this. You have the right to be very upset but take a look at what could be the long term effects of the direction you are going. Pushkar should do whatever is possible to and agreed upon in the original contract to move forward with your refund.

 

[pushkar]

Hey guys, I understand @onlineaddy 's frustration. It is warranted. We have started the refund process for founders and posted on the private forum.

However in case of Onlineaddy, there was an issue with the wire (but thankfully resolved). We got the notification EOD yesterday that I texted him in the early AM. Clearly it was late and there is warranted exasperation.

In terms of this whole drama, I want to be clear about a couple of things

1. We are refunding the founders who have asked for the refunds. Its being done by returning the inventory we purchased. We have a schedule of refunds from our suppliers that we are tying the refund amount to.

2. We expect some backlash / badmouthing from a couple of people (a vocal minority, those who have commented here) - we cant avoid that. There is nothing that we can realistically say that will address this vocal minority. Even if they had a bike, they probably would still haggle on price, an extra wire, shipping delays, bad color etc etc. Literally nothing till fix this.

For us, we have realized that nothing good will come out of insulting people, saying hateful and hurtful stuff. Its a tough situation for customers and incredibly tough for us. No amount of hiding is going to solve it. We can either get into the whole saga of why the bike was not made, or move on. We are trying to move on.

As far as other customers are concerned, we will let our bikes do the talking. At the end, that is what matters. No bike = no Watt Wagons.

I will copy and paste this on all forums @onlineaddy has posted so folks know where we stand, where we are owning up to our issues, and what we have done to remediate the situation.


Thanks

 

[Lsthrz]

I think you will find that the positive reviews will far outweigh the negative Pushkar. People get upset, how they close to make that known is another matter altogether.

I, for one, am very happy with our ‘small’ issue, your response and the general communication with yourself and Amit - all very solid.

Perseverance…

 

[onlineaddy]

Hey guys, I understand @onlineaddy 's frustration. It is warranted. We have started the refund process for founders and posted on the private forum.

However in case of Onlineaddy, there was an issue with the wire (but thankfully resolved). We got the notification EOD yesterday that I texted him in the early AM. Clearly it was late and there is warranted exasperation.

In terms of this whole drama, I want to be clear about a couple of things

1. We are refunding the founders who have asked for the refunds. Its being done by returning the inventory we purchased. We have a schedule of refunds from our suppliers that we are tying the refund amount to.

2. We expect some backlash / badmouthing from a couple of people (a vocal minority, those who have commented here) - we cant avoid that. There is nothing that we can realistically say that will address this vocal minority. Even if they had a bike, they probably would still haggle on price, an extra wire, shipping delays, bad color etc etc. Literally nothing till fix this.

For us, we have realized that nothing good will come out of insulting people, saying hateful and hurtful stuff. Its a tough situation for customers and incredibly tough for us. No amount of hiding is going to solve it. We can either get into the whole saga of why the bike was not made, or move on. We are trying to move on.

As far as other customers are concerned, we will let our bikes do the talking. At the end, that is what matters. No bike = no Watt Wagons.

I will copy and paste this on all forums @onlineaddy has posted so folks know where we stand, where we are owning up to our issues, and what we have done to remediate the situation.


Thanks

You never said what the issue was with the first wire that supposedly was sent to me along with other founders. I waited a while and contacted you numerous times using various methods without much of a response from you. It wasn’t until finally this morning that I heard back after I informed you of my “buyer beware” warning to others. I am glad at least you agree that my frustration is warranted.

“Backlash/badmouthing”?! Nothing in what I stated in my warning to folks is anything but fact. If you want me to sing your praises, do better and give me some favorable facts to spread.

“Even if they had a bike, they probably would still haggle on price, an extra wire, shipping delays, bad color etc etc. Literally nothing till fix this.” - Really? Now we’re in some alternate universe where you’ve delivered bikes to the Helios founders and we’re still complaining. Ok.

“insulting people, saying hateful and hurtful stuff” - I sincerely hope you’re not speaking of me. Only stuff I’ve said include “no bike” and “no refund”. Neither is insulting, hateful, nor hurtful.

“We are trying to move on.” - So am I. Refund my money, and you and I will no longer have any dealings.

“No bike = no Watt Wagons” - Agreed. That has been the experience for us Helios founders.

“we are owning up to our issues” - To me you have yet done anything to own up. All words so far. No bike and not one penny.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Onlineaddy did this out of frustration. I'm one of the frustrated Helios founders. Although I don't agree with the way he handled this I understand why he did it.

I believe much of the frustration the founders are feeling is due to a lack of communication from Pushkar.
Yes, I know that, for the most part, he's a one-man-show, which means he's really busy and I know that the world's economy is a sh*t show, but staying in touch with your customers and answering their questions is a timely manner is paramount.

I suspect that some of you will post replies stating that you've had no problem communicating with Pushkar and I happy for you, but that is NOT the case for many of the people of this forum who have purchased WW bikes.
There are times when I would pm or text Pushkar and get an immediate response, but other times I wouldn't get any response. I'd pm or text again and again no response. This would go on for days and days and sometimes a week or more.
When he replied right away it gave me that valued customer feeling, but when my text messages and pm's went unanswered I felt that he didn't care about me as a customer.
Right or wrong, that's how I felt.
@pushkar, I can't stress enough how important it is to your customers for you to keep the lines of communication open and flowing.

 

[pushkar]

Solid points.

I was talking to someone else a few mins ago - giving bad news 18 months straight is draining. We have designed and launched 2 bikes in that time with no problems. This one just ran into every conceivable problem.

Sucks. Happens. Open lines of communication can’t fix the fact that in hindsight, this is one of the projects where communication could not have saved it. We should have ended this back in Jan / Feb when we were 9-10 months in.

That being said, I’m glad we can build a bike for you. Still waiting on build pics from my tech (since bikes packed and still not picked up as of a few mins ago).

I’m going in for an early drink.

 

[Acme]

The owner of the business in the shop working on Saturday. I’ll never fault something who keeps moving forward despite hurdles and road blocks. From my first conversation with Pushkar in September of 2019 I knew who he was.
Pushkar

 

[onlineaddy]

Solid points.

I was talking to someone else a few mins ago - giving bad news 18 months straight is draining. We have designed and launched 2 bikes in that time with no problems. This one just ran into every conceivable problem.

Sucks. Happens. Open lines of communication can’t fix the fact that in hindsight, this is one of the projects where communication could not have saved it. We should have ended this back in Jan / Feb when we were 9-10 months in.

That being said, I’m glad we can build a bike for you. Still waiting on build pics from my tech (since bikes packed and still not picked up as of a few mins ago).

I’m going in for an early drink.

Open communication and transparency alleviate concerns and give us the information we need to make the appropriate decisions. You took that out of the equation for us when you stopped treating the founders with respect by ignoring us and our pleas.

 

[Deacon Blues]

Sucks. Happens. Open lines of communication can’t fix the fact that in hindsight, this is one of the projects where communication could not have saved it. We should have ended this back in Jan / Feb when we were 9-10 months in.

I’m going in for an early drink.

Damn you Fedex!

For me, bad news is better than no news. It's the not knowing that frustrates me the most.

 

[Merle Nelson]

Damn you Fedex!

For me, bad news is better than no news. It's the not knowing that frustrates me the most.

I would say that is true for 99 to 100% of people. Good talkers may think they are immune to this rule like sloppy drunks sometimes think they are charming every female in the room - not.

Along with this facet of business/life being a good thing to learn in spades , if one labors through life with special challenges that bring this about it actually can only help to let others know. (Alcoholism, bi-polar etc.)

My wife started telling our clients that I take every Thursday off to ride ebikes.

 

[Zachdds]

With all the problems trying to build the Helios, it seems you have just expected him to eat all that, correct?

I am confused on this.
1. the price did go up as ww switched from aluminum to carbon.
2. Yes, I do expect a company to provide their service for an agreed upon price. I didn’t name the price, ww gave the price and it was my job to determine wether on not I could afford it.
Come on acme. That is how business works. Acting like founders are somehow not being fair because they want what had been sold to them.

I’m guessing you live in real world where it helps to be reasonable to get what we want. To begin with you could ask yourself: did I assume there was any risk by placing an order for a product that was still in R&D at significantly under market value?

Yes, we were all concerned. We were betting on ww and Pushkar. The fears were that ww would go bankrupt or something happen to Pushkar. It doesn’t seem like ww is going bankrupt, but it certainly did seem like something changed with Pushkar.

It seems like it was around 9-10 months ago (a timeframe that Pushkar now says he should have pulled the project). The frames were supposably stateside in customs. After a 1 year wait we were all going to get our bikes soon. We were going to bump hydra orders to the back of the line and would all be riding in just a matter of weeks.
Then silence. When Pushkar finally resurfaced he said he had known for a couple weeks that wasn’t going to happen and just trying to figure out how to tell us. I agree that right then he should have pulled the project, but I believe he had already spent most of the money building the hydras and was not in a position to see a mass exodus of the founders. So what to do. Oh I know let’s promise more. You can have your money back in 4-6 months or you can have this even sweeter bike with better this and stronger that for the same price and it will be ready in 4-6 months. Most stayed on for the bike because that is why we are all here to begin with. We should have looked at the history of the timeframes, but it is easy to get excited. Very little communication. No real updates and in the last couple weeks the timeframe was very nonchalantly pushed out another 4-6 months.

I personally think ww knew there was no chance the bikes would be ready in 90-120 days, but they also knew they couldn’t afford to pay all the founders. I think they were intentionally mislead.

I understand that your dealings with them have been great, but others have not had that same experience. It is not a small subset of the founders but just about all of them. Only a few of us have surfaced here on the main board. Mainly because the others are scared to tell the truth for fear that the economical hardship caused ww might endanger their refund.

The other story that I would like to know are from the Helios purchasers who are not founders. One guy on here bought a bike last winter and had heard nothing from ww about problems with the frames. He assumed it was just shipping issues and it would all come together and he would eventually get the bike he bought. That bike, the one with the diagrams that was up on ww for 18 months is not getting built. The idea that they never reached out to this guy is dumbfounding to me.

 

[Explorer-1]

My wife started telling our clients that I take every Thursday off to ride ebikes.

 

[Acme]

I am confused on this.
1. the price did go up as ww switched from aluminum to carbon.
2. Yes, I do expect a company to provide their service for an agreed upon price. I didn’t name the price, ww gave the price and it was my job to determine wether on not I could afford it.
Come on acme. That is how business works. Acting like founders are somehow not being fair because they want what had been sold to them.



Yes, we were all concerned. We were betting on ww and Pushkar. The fears were that ww would go bankrupt or something happen to Pushkar. It doesn’t seem like ww is going bankrupt, but it certainly did seem like something changed with Pushkar.

It seems like it was around 9-10 months ago (a timeframe that Pushkar now says he should have pulled the project). The frames were supposably stateside in customs. After a 1 year wait we were all going to get our bikes soon. We were going to bump hydra orders to the back of the line and would all be riding in just a matter of weeks.
Then silence. When Pushkar finally resurfaced he said he had known for a couple weeks that wasn’t going to happen and just trying to figure out how to tell us. I agree that right then he should have pulled the project, but I believe he had already spent most of the money building the hydras and was not in a position to see a mass exodus of the founders. So what to do. Oh I know let’s promise more. You can have your money back in 4-6 months or you can have this even sweeter bike with better this and stronger that for the same price and it will be ready in 4-6 months. Most stayed on for the bike because that is why we are all here to begin with. We should have looked at the history of the timeframes, but it is easy to get excited. Very little communication. No real updates and in the last couple weeks the timeframe was very nonchalantly pushed out another 4-6 months.

I personally think ww knew there was no chance the bikes would be ready in 90-120 days, but they also knew they couldn’t afford to pay all the founders. I think they were intentionally mislead.

I understand that your dealings with them have been great, but others have not had that same experience. It is not a small subset of the founders but just about all of them. Only a few of us have surfaced here on the main board. Mainly because the others are scared to tell the truth for fear that the economical hardship caused ww might endanger their refund.

The other story that I would like to know are from the Helios purchasers who are not founders. One guy on here bought a bike last winter and had heard nothing from ww about problems with the frames. He assumed it was just shipping issues and it would all come together and he would eventually get the bike he bought. That bike, the one with the diagrams that was up on ww for 18 months is not getting built. The idea that they never reached out to this guy is dumbfounding to me.

ZachDDs,
I agree with most of what you said except 2 things.
Pushkar did not take the money and use it to build Hydra’s. It was mostly spent on R&D for the Helios. This seems to be the one thing that escapes people who have never tried to prototype something. It costs a horrendous amount of money before you have anything to show for it.
Secondly Pushkar said in hindsight he now sees he should have pulled the plug but I see Pushkar is the type of person who will not give up easily on an obligation, unfortunately in this instance it was not the right call. I hope you can see none of us has a crystal ball and even the smartest among us did not foresee the far reaching complications caused by Covid.
I feel positive you will get your money back although it may be late.

 

[Zachdds]

Acme. You seem to know more about the founders experience then we do. Either
1 you don't
2 Pushkar being too busy to keep the founders in the loop or send confirmation emails to them etc finds time to sit around and gossip with you about the whole process.

Either way, online and oua finally got their first round of refunds as promised. I really do not care what you or anyone else thinks of WW. I have my opinions and you have yours. Like someone said earlier. I am not attacking your opinions of ww or the bike you are riding. Not even trying to change your mind one little bit. Just informing people of my personal experience with the company.

I found it very sad reading in the founders forum every single day about, Pushkar did you get my email or dm about cancellation and then 3 days later same message same person. The process was coming to an end and founders were unable to get emails verifying their spot in the line. This went on for a few weeks. Bringing it to the main board was really one of the last options that the founders had to at least get Pushkar to acknowledge the group anymore. Hell a few weeks ago, right as the project was dying he turned over all communicating to his partner. That dude made like 3 posts and then peace out.

The founders began communicating off the board. It is funny that you mentioned the lawsuit earlier because one of the founders is also an attorney and mentioned that was the route he was planning on persuing if he could not at least get some communication. Coming here seemed like a better compromise. We wIll see if it holds up or not.

 

[onlineaddy]

online and oua finally got their first round of refunds as promised.

I have yet received one penny of refund as of right now, 2021-10-18 07:10 PT.

 

[Lsthrz]

The more I ride it, the more it feels small to me. Yes, I could get a longer seat post and bar risers but I think I’d like what I originally ordered (and paid for) and work with that. Working with WW on a solution.

A quick update. Swung by the WW shop today and made the swap to the large frame. Have only had the shortest of test loops around the dangerous Boston streets outside of the WW headquarters but very happy with the new frame size. @Acme I don’t disagree that a medium can be made to work for a taller rider and I thought of following your lead and keeping both sizes, but in the end, was just not right for my size (so someone is going to get a great medium sized Hydra now).

@pushkar and team were all over this slight mix-up and I am very happy with the process.

Got to ride the medium for a few weeks on some great trails in the area which was a good intro to the Hydra and made my October trip.

As a bonus, my Northern Lights color was modified a bit for the new frame (gutsy) and I really like the change - a little more green.

Pics to follow but need to get this bike back to Colorado first.

 

[rtp]

A quick update. Swung by the WW shop today and made the swap to the large frame. Have only had the shortest of test loops around the dangerous Boston streets outside of the WW headquarters but very happy with the new frame size. @Acme I don’t disagree that a medium can be made to work for a taller rider and I thought of following your lead and keeping both sizes, but in the end, was just not right for my size (so someone is going to get a great medium sized Hydra now).

@pushkar and team were all over this slight mix-up and I am very happy with the process.

Got to ride the medium for a few weeks on some great trails in the area which was a good intro to the Hydra and made my October trip.

As a bonus, my Northern Lights color was modified a bit for the new frame (gutsy) and I really like the change - a little more green.

Pics to follow but need to get this bike back to Colorado first.

What’s your height/weight if I can ask?