Karmic - Karmic Koben, Press - PR - Praise - Critique

[pxpaulx]

I love the juxtaposition of J.R.'s cautious optimism and Paul's unbridled enthusiasm. I bet you guys have different experiences in Las Vegas.

We've got some other updates planned, and you guys should be excited that you got in early. It's only going up from here!

Hah! The only time I've been to Vegas was to go to a free concert (Blindside) and take photos out in red rocks and the valley of fire (lived up to its name). Ok, I probably dropped fifty bucks in the slots, but that is pretty damn tame in Vegas!

 

[J.R.]

....and I went to Atlantic City once 20 years ago, never went back. I have no desire to go to LV or AC, I'd rather buy a new ebike or some new chrome for the H-D!

 

[George S.]

A million dollars would be 500 units. That seems like a good number.

Used to live in Vegas. The sports bettors and poker players were intense. Too old for it. Don't commingle any funds.

 

[Hong]

A million dollars would be 500 units. That seems like a good number.

That sounds like a very good number.

 

[Hong]

Just a heads up (before J.R. posts it), if you look on Kickstarter, and select Technology...

 

[Allezdude]

what size will the wheels be-700c or 26" or ? Kinda surprised this wasn't included in the specs. Also would love to see mounts for fenders & racks- something any commuter (who lives outside sunny Cali where it never rains ) needs. The fork crown in the KS pics is not drilled for a fender, hopefully the production fork will have one and eyelets at the dropout for a front fender.

It would have been awesome if you ran the wires internally in the frame. Not only for stealth and aesthetic reasons but to protect them from the elements, snagging, etc... The KS pics seem to avoid angles that show the wires. In any event, most factories make bicycle frames with ports for running cables internally for electronic shifting so it should be doable for you guys.

Curious why you guys went with an MTB style frame- front end is very high and looks kind of funny with the long fork legs due to the suspension-corrected geometry. I guess that gives you the option of coming out with a model that has an MTB suspension fork down the road (or buyers can install one).

I did back this KS and wish you guys luck; sorry the the sniping but with a few more tweaks I think you'd go,from a good product to a great product.

 

[pxpaulx]

Just a heads up (before J.R. posts it), if you look on Kickstarter, and select Technology...

Featured campaign, nice job. Also, really enjoyed reading your blog post from the weekend, sounds like it was a once in a lifetime experience!

 

[J.R.]

Hong, put some Schwalbe Marathon tires and a BodyFloat or Thudbuster on ours and call it the EBR edition

Just a heads up (before J.R. posts it), if you look on Kickstarter, and select Technology...

Noteworthy in the crowd-funding world for sure, but more noteworthy for the bicycle world was your blog from your weekend ride with the pros! You are truly a bicycle enthusiast and that's important to me! Impressed! You are in the tech world, but also in the cycling world.

https://medium.com/karmic-bikes/launches-attacks-flats-fe3259b31d89

 

[J.R.]

what size will the wheels be-700c or 26" or ? Kinda surprised this wasn't included in the specs. Also would love to see mounts for fenders & racks- something any commuter (who lives outside sunny Cali where it never rains ) needs. The fork crown in the KS pics is not drilled for a fender, hopefully the production fork will have one and eyelets at the dropout for a front fender.

It would have been awesome if you ran the wires internally in the frame. Not only for stealth and aesthetic reasons but to protect them from the elements, snagging, etc... The KS pics seem to avoid angles that show the wires. In any event, most factories make bicycle frames with ports for running cables internally for electronic shifting so it should be doable for you guys.

Curious why you guys went with an MTB style frame- front end is very high and looks kind of funny with the long fork legs due to the suspension-corrected geometry. I guess that gives you the option of coming out with a model that has an MTB suspension fork down the road (or buyers can install one).

I did back this KS and wish you guys luck; sorry the the sniping but with a few more tweaks I think you'd go,from a good product to a great product.

Welcome to the EBR community! I'll try and comment on your issues with this build. I don't have any inside information about the Koben, but I do know a little about bicycles, everyday I find out just how little though.

The frame is more of a "fitness" geometry, the head-tube isn't as tall as a mountain bike. the fork on the blue prototype is carbon and the campaign bike will likely be steel or aluminum. I personally hope for 43xx alloy steel as it would handle road imperfections better, less vibration transmitted to the rider. The orange prototype looks to have a metal fork (see space between tire and fork), that's the geometry we are likely to see. There will likely be bosses for attaching fenders, but there are aftermarket solutions for that if there are not.

This frame is not hydro-formed, it's traditional. Generally traditional frames don't have internal wires and cables. In order to route the cables internally the frame tubes would likely have to be larger to keep it structurally sound. Personally I would like to keep the graceful lines, it's one of the things I find most attractive about the bike. I don't want a big beefy build.

I don't think what you posted was "sniping", it was honest critique! I hope you continue to share your thoughts. As I said I have no inside information, my comments are from experience, research and information I gleaned from pre and post campaign start. Hopefully Hong will be able to share more.

 

[pxpaulx]

The frame is more of a "fitness" geometry, the head-tube isn't as tall as a mountain bike. the fork on the blue prototype is carbon and the campaign bike will likely be steel or aluminum. I personally hope for 43xx alloy steel as it would handle road imperfections better, less vibration transmitted to the rider. The orange prototype looks to have a metal fork (see space between tire and fork), that's the geometry we are likely to see. There will likely be bosses for attaching fenders, but there are aftermarket solutions for that if there are not.

The Koben S model is stated to have a carbon front fork in the specs!

 

[J.R.]

The Koben S model is stated to have a carbon front fork in the specs!

Hong had stated he will try to spec carbon fork as stated in specs, but I can't remember where I read that. I will try to find it and post a link. I could be wrong, but either way carbon or chromo (43xx) I'd feel good. I do know we aren't getting the "optional accessories" that makeup the blue bike.

 

[George S.]

Hi,

I tried to dig up some info on the hydraulic disk brakes. Nothing quite matched. I think they should put hydraulics on e-bikes.

Don't know if Hong has any insights into the new ebike categories proposed in California. The S is listed as a Speed Pedelec, which would keep it off some paths, as I understand it. Not in Utah, though, which I doubt will follow California anywhere. I wonder if California companies are treating those classifications as a 'given'?

Thanks!

 

[pxpaulx]

I'm pretty sure he wrote that in the first Karmic thread (I was wrong here, but I do remember him commenting on it as well), but that was followed by the spec being added to the campaign page:

 

[pxpaulx]

Hi,

I tried to dig up some info on the hydraulic disk brakes. Nothing quite matched. I think they should put hydraulics on e-bikes.

Don't know if Hong has any insights into the new ebike categories proposed in California. The S is listed as a Speed Pedelec, which would keep it off some paths, as I understand it. Not in Utah, though, which I doubt will follow California anywhere. I wonder if California companies are treating those classifications as a 'given'?

Thanks!

He surely is aware I think, the spec sheet I just posted follows the format of that proposed legislation.

 

[George S.]

I was playing "What's it Cost" in a Spreadsheet. Hong doesn't have to comment on any of this. I figure the Bafang is around $300, wholesale, and the Nuvinci somewhere around there. The battery is tough, but maybe they get the cells for $6 in bulk? There are 36. The crank, fork, pedal, tires could vary, but they aren't too much. The Nuvinci has to be put in the rear rim, and then another front rim. I couldn't find the brake set, but maybe $80?

To me, the CF edge is that you get these parts at wholesale prices. If they get the units up, it probably is better still.

This is where you can go nuts saying "Wow, I wish the rims were a little nicer, and those tires?" If you took a Bikes Direct hybrid, the wholesale is probably $300. If you add the Nuvinci and the BBS, I'm pretty sure how that costs out. The battery I'll guess $250. Going that route is around $1200, but there are some upgrades. And they have overhead by not just drop-shipping out of China.

Don't get me wrong. I couldn't build the bike and buy a battery anywhere near where I am in. You have to find a bike you really like and then hope the managers are competent, so it's hard for me to gripe. I'm still in the "Let's find some lower price point" camp. But you want to respect what Hong and his partner are saying about making good bikes.

This has been very educational.

 

[Hong]

I did back this KS and wish you guys luck; sorry the the sniping but with a few more tweaks I think you'd go,from a good product to a great product.

Thanks for backing us, and we really appreciate your comments. I would have the same concerns if I backed us!

I think J.R. did a great job, but I would just say that these are *prototypes* we are showing. The production bikes will be slightly different, and we will address all the concerns that folks have. Wish I could say more, but we will update the KS when we get confirmation from our factories, and not a second before.

 

[pxpaulx]

@Hong - Stretch goals look good! No doubt we'll reach them. The lights are definitely a nice added feature. I will cross my fingers enough buyers vote for Forest Spark Green - when do we get to vote?! (I count 127 bikes sold so far)

 

[Hong]

I will cross my fingers enough buyers vote for Forest Spark Green - when do we get to vote?! (I count 127 bikes sold so far)

It's why we put that color leftmost on the chart. We will get a third color after 200 bikes are backed, hope that was clear.

 

[pxpaulx]

It's why we put that color leftmost on the chart. We will get a third color after 200 bikes are backed, hope that was clear.

I can live with that. Love the first two colors anyway...my fat bike is already Orange or that would be my choice, that blue is awesome too.

 

[J.R.]

@Hong - Stretch goals look good! No doubt we'll reach them. The lights are definitely a nice added feature. I will cross my fingers enough buyers vote for Forest Spark Green - when do we get to vote?! (I count 127 bikes sold so far)

The green they list as forest is more of a kelly green. Would be nice if it were forest, but of the choices I like the gray. It will show the dirt less than any other color listed. I get enough dirt with 4 black vehicles, I have one bike that's warm gray and like it. I do like the blue though.