Is This Battery Pack for Real ($106) ??

[Gionnirocket]

I have a bunch of BMS. Available for the price of shipping. Left overs from several years of UPP battery buyers support parts. BMS are easily toasted by beginner builders. Which is why very few resellers offer them for sale. It’s also an adventure sorting the Chinese script labels. Not for the meek.

Thanks Santo!
Post a pic if you're able... I'll compare it to what I find under the shrink wrap

 

[tomjasz]

That gives more context to your claims which came across as coming from an expert in the field

Thanks Santo!
Post a pic if you're able... I'll compare it to what I find under the shrink wrap

I’ll take some closeups.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I’ll take some closeups.

Now that's a Big 'ol Bunch of BMS's!!!
I may just take you up on your offer to get my feet wet on melting a few

 

[EMGX]

I see this thread has 3K views which speaks to the interest in lower price batteries. It sounds like Gionnirocket's battery didn't meet his expectations and maybe a $100 battery is below the threshold where reasonable performance can be expected. I have no dog in the fight and don't care what amount of money anyone pays for whatever battery they choose. I posted real world experience after many charge cycles and hundreds of miles of riding with the 48v 10ah btrpower battery on my 48v 750w tsdz2 hybrid bike. Today I did a 25+ mile very hilly ride on my 36v 500w tsdz2 Dahon Jack with 26x2.0 balloon tires using a btrpower 36v 10ah battery also with many charge cycles and hundreds of miles of use. Fully charged at 41.9v per digital multimeter, after ride it was at 36.9v. ~2000ft elevation gain in 25.6 miles
Highest point was a bit above here:

lowest point was at the river at the left of the picture and over the hills seen between the two large fir trees.

Odometer is set to be accurate:

Just one person's experience, which has been excellent, with these batteries as well as a couple other no-name Amazon sourced batteries that I have. I ride for fun and exercise and not moped style that I see with people throttling along with their heavy fat tire bikes so YMMV.

 

[tomjasz]

Now that's a Big 'ol Bunch of BMS's!!!
I may just take you up on your offer to get my feet wet on melting a few

Yeah, I'm done with building and repairing. All testing tools, Grin, and miscellaneous parts and cases to be sold off. NONE of which had any link to the reseller I support. While I've claimed an expert, I have had many successful builds far beond my attackers.. My pacemaker makes welding dangerous.

I'm down for a few days, but will send photos of BMS soon. I do have several Hailong cases and a Dolphin case I've decided bnot to build with. All will go at best internet price match.

 

[George S.]

A 4 Month Evaluation

I expected this pack to fail or have a very short life, but that's just me looking at the low price and thinking it can't be real. There are reports of problems with cheap packs, but the pack worked for me. It is light. It fits in a cheap top tube bag. No problems ramping my BBS02 to 16 amps. Like many packs, it starts to sag after it is 40% depleted, which does make it less fun that when fully charged.

The initial watt hour rating was around 625wh. For a 'true' 15A and 48V, the real average voltage for a full discharge is around 46 volts. Multiply 15 times 46 and you get around 700 wh. That's what you would like to see. The 625wh is down 10%, but it's not outside the norm for pack marketing. There is a 20AH and anyone who needs over 400 wh might look at that. My tests are not extreme, I just charge the battery. For testing, using a plug charger, It sits at full charge voltage for a few minutes but not long enough to do a lot of balancing. Basically, you have to do a full charge and leave the pack overnight, to get a balance charge. I use a solar charger and it shuts down at the voltage set point. So I assume this pack has not been balanced.

The 4 month watt hour rating was down to 565wh. That's a drop of 60 wh, or 10%. A lot of performance cells can lose 20% in a hundred cycles, but I'm not doing hard cycles. It's a full charge and a half discharge, mostly.

I assume if the vendor, Liito Kala, continues to make the pack and it performs similarly, they will do pretty well. Right now, I think it costs $120 with tax and whatnot. It's a 3 month wait, ocean freight.

 

[EMGX]

Or for people like me who don't want to purchase from aliexpress or wait 3 months for delivery the Amazon sourced batteries that I have cost $159-$169 (plus tax) with free shipping received within a week. They have handled 48v 750w TSDZ2 which draws up to 18amps (per ecocycles) and I have ridden up to 71 miles on a charge - and that includes riding up a mountain over the last 2-3 miles and over many hills in between - on a 48v 10ah battery, similar excellent experience with inexpensive 36v batteries.

 

[Gionnirocket]

A 4 Month Evaluation

I expected this pack to fail or have a very short life, but that's just me looking at the low price and thinking it can't be real. There are reports of problems with cheap packs, but the pack worked for me. It is light. It fits in a cheap top tube bag. No problems ramping my BBS02 to 16 amps. Like many packs, it starts to sag after it is 40% depleted, which does make it less fun that when fully charged.

The initial watt hour rating was around 625wh. For a 'true' 15A and 48V, the real average voltage for a full discharge is around 46 volts. Multiply 15 times 46 and you get around 700 wh. That's what you would like to see. The 625wh is down 10%, but it's not outside the norm for pack marketing. There is a 20AH and anyone who needs over 400 wh might look at that. My tests are not extreme, I just charge the battery. For testing, using a plug charger, It sits at full charge voltage for a few minutes but not long enough to do a lot of balancing. Basically, you have to do a full charge and leave the pack overnight, to get a balance charge. I use a solar charger and it shuts down at the voltage set point. So I assume this pack has not been balanced.

The 4 month watt hour rating was down to 565wh. That's a drop of 60 wh, or 10%. A lot of performance cells can lose 20% in a hundred cycles, but I'm not doing hard cycles. It's a full charge and a half discharge, mostly.

I assume if the vendor, Liito Kala, continues to make the pack and it performs similarly, they will do pretty well. Right now, I think it costs $120 with tax and whatnot. It's a 3 month wait, ocean freight.

View attachment 99689View attachment 99690

Well my LiitoKaka battery is a terd... So there's that.
As all warned before hand, it's a crap shoot on what you get as quality control is far from existing.
And fyi... No amount of time left on a charger will balance a battery if the BMS doesn't have this function, which these for sure do not.
These packs have overcharge protection which pretty much shuts it down as soon as any cell reaches full charge.
I'm still glad I experimented with it and have a few more things I'd like to try... But I doubt very much that I would purchase from them again nor recommend them at any price.

 

[tomjasz]

But I doubt very much that I would purchase from them again nor recommend them at any price.

George still has his First Communion money. There's just no way to get grade A cells in a $100 pack.

 

[George S.]

Well my LiitoKaka battery is a terd... So there's that.
As all warned before hand, it's a crap shoot on what you get as quality control is far from existing.
And fyi... No amount of time left on a charger will balance a battery if the BMS doesn't have this function, which these for sure do not.
These packs have overcharge protection which pretty much shuts it down as soon as any cell reaches full charge.
I'm still glad I experimented with it and have a few more things I'd like to try... But I doubt very much that I would purchase from them again nor recommend them at any price.

Well my LiitoKaka battery is a terd... So there's that.
As all warned before hand, it's a crap shoot on what you get as quality control is far from existing.
And fyi... No amount of time left on a charger will balance a battery if the BMS doesn't have this function, which these for sure do not.
These packs have overcharge protection which pretty much shuts it down as soon as any cell reaches full charge.
I'm still glad I experimented with it and have a few more things I'd like to try... But I doubt very much that I would purchase from them again nor recommend them at any price.

I'm sorry yours did not work. I wish there was a database of these Chinese packs, a profile of whether they might be any good. I would expect a kind of binary set of results, good or awful. It would be nice to know what went wrong. Weak cells across the boards? A few really bad cells? Bad chips? You're right about no balance. They didn't say anything other than the obvious protections. I think you should figure out what you can and then file a claim, or make your results known to them. I'm not saying they will do much, but sometimes they send you half your money, something like that. How they respond is important. If there is no response, it's another problem.

The Chinese presence on Amazon seems to be expanding rapidly. Some company may decide they really want to develop a brand and a loyal set of customers. Liito Kala is so bare bones. I guess I would at least want Amazon, a US warehouse, some idea of the cells they use, maybe an impression of the production quality. LK doesn't really do anything but compete on price, but other Chinese companies may. I still have a 36v 15AH LFP from China, bought five years ago. It holds about 90% of the original charge. If they make a basic battery it can work out, at least some of the time. I don't think the discount Chinese pack is going away. I'd hate to have to compete against them. Now you even have upscale Chinese pack makers.

Don't know what you can do with the pack. I figured I might make an emergency reserve pack out of mine, if it failed, either 13s2p or even 13s1p. (Or 14s). I started to do that with an LFP project I started last Spring. Project went South. The cells were too messed up to bother. You could check each cell, take them out of the nickel. Maybe @harryS will have some more info.

 

[EMGX]

I'm doing a range test on my no name Amazon sourced 48v 15ah battery that I've had for about 9 months. Used it on this TSDZ2 mid drive conversion as well as a 1980s Schwinn Sierra mountain bike with a 500w geared rear hub motor conversion. All rides on very hilly routes. So far 110 miles on one charge with 46+v residual charge. Lowest I saw battery slump was to 46v on very steep section going up this mountain. I do ride without assist downhill and on flats but current charge has assisted me up this mountain 3 times (3 rides over a 4 day span).
I might try one more 22-25 mile ride on this charge which will include another ride from near sea level up to this point and rolling hills in between. I guess all of my inexpensive batteries have been in the lucky "95%" good performing group - so far at least.

 

[EMGX]

Did one last ride on thecurrent charge. Total 135+ miles (display trip odometer has a glitch where it under reports 1 mile out of 10 when above 100 miles). Over 7500 feet climbing. It might be able to provide assist for another 25 miles and another 2000ft elevation gain but I'm not going to push it to the last electron. Super impressed!

EDIT: digital voltmeter read 46.6v so the display reading is close. Almost 50% residual capacity left in the battery which is pretty unbelievable - maybe there would be a steep drop off in performance after this but still amazing battery performance IMO.

 

[harryS]

After 10 weeks, the Littokala 48V15Ah 13-3P arrived.

One full test cycle. After verifying it could push 26A on my BBS02 bike, I did a capacity test with my 20A hubmotor bike..Ran it from 54.6V down to 40V. The discharge capacity was 11.9Ah. My controller LVC did not work, so I stopped the test when voltage reached 40. I did keep riding, and within 500 feet, the battery shut itself off at 38V. Voltage sag, by the way was 4V, under throttle. Even at 42V, my bike felt good, but to be honest, I normally run that bike on a 10S 36V battery. On recharge, the pack sucked up 12.3AH. COnclusion is mine is a12AH pack, and the cells must be 4AH cells. It has enough capacity for a 500W motor, and performance is acceptable fior a $106 battery, By the way, I covered 57 miles, around 10WH/mile. Your mileage could vary.

I plan to wrap it with padding and make a coroplastic box for it, to minimize mechanical stress on its structure and spot welds. Keep it in the cinder block for storage and charge outdoors. I wpuld have been quite impressed if it had deleivered close to 15AH, but 12AH is realistic, given its price

I would not buy another one because it's going to be more fuss to charge and store . Better to spend 3X on a UPP Hailong pack using 21700 cells.

 

[George S.]

After 10 weeks, the Littokala 48V15Ah 13-3P arrived.

One full test cycle. After verifying it could push 26A on my BBS02 bike, I did a capacity test with my 20A hubmotor bike..Ran it from 54.6V down to 40V. The discharge capacity was 11.9Ah. My controller LVC did not work, so I stopped the test when voltage reached 40. I did keep riding, and within 500 feet, the battery shut itself off at 38V. Voltage sag, by the way was 4V, under throttle. Even at 42V, my bike felt good, but to be honest, I normally run that bike on a 10S 36V battery. On recharge, the pack sucked up 12.3AH. COnclusion is mine is a12AH pack, and the cells must be 4AH cells. It has enough capacity for a 500W motor, and performance is acceptable fior a $106 battery, By the way, I covered 57 miles, around 10WH/mile. Your mileage could vary.

I plan to wrap it with padding and make a coroplastic box for it, to minimize mechanical stress on its structure and spot welds. Keep it in the cinder block for storage and charge outdoors. I wpuld have been quite impressed if it had deleivered close to 15AH, but 12AH is realistic, given its price

I would not buy another one because it's going to be more fuss to charge and store . Better to spend 3X on a UPP Hailong pack using 21700 cells.

The safe chemistry is LiFePo4, or LFP. Ebike companies do not like the bulk. Companies like Tesla have come around to LFP, for safety and cost. I built a 32 cell LFP pack with 32650 cells from Sriko, Ebay. The LFP pack sits at around 52 volts and it drops to 50.5 volts with a 5 amp load after drawing down 400 wh. This chemistry has a very stable voltage profile until you reach the end of the capacity. The size difference is very significant, almost double the size of the LK pack with 21700's. They have almost identical capacity, at 600 wh. The LK weighs 6.5 pounds and the LFP weighs 10 pounds, so not a huge difference. It will go in a rear rack and I don't really notice 10 pounds back there.

Battery Hookup makes modules with 32650 cells, in a 20p configuration. They just send them out and have them machine spot welded. From the pictures, the welds are basically perfect. If you made 16s1p modules you would have something you could connect into a 2p or 3p ebike pack. BH doesn't charge for the assembled pack beyond the cell price, which is $3.25. So each module would be $60. I'd say 2 would be a standard ebike battery. The BMS is optional for me. Why not just assemble modules in 5 minutes on a robot welder that isn't that expensive? No big deal for me to spot weld, and I'm kind of done collecting ebike batteries.

Are the LK cells junk? No, mine did not degrade or die in a few cycles. Will they last forever? No. Bafang is charging around $600 for a 21700 pack with 56 cells, versus 39 in this pack. So the per cell price from Bafang is 4x the LK price. The Bafang are top of the line Samsung 50's. My "benefit of the doubt" warm feeling toward China merchants is gone. I got an empty bag tablet, but had a video of the delivery. I got some bad cells and no real response. I got a solar controller with sketchy specs. It's like garbage roulette, and sometimes you can get adjustments or go to the credit card company, but it's not worth it. It's better to buy it from a US importer who has more reason to check things out. I read a Chinese newspaper and the bad feelings on each side are growing daily. I don't think either side wins, but who knows. I don't like what Bafang is doing but what do you do? Go find another Chinese company to be your new best friend?

 

[m@Robertson]

...Better to spend 3X on a UPP Hailong pack using 21700 cells.

I was right there with you until you said that. Lots of happy customers but so many horror stories to go with them. Waaay more than anyone should tolerate. I have a pack from a seller who it turned out used UPP to build their packs, unbeknownst to me, and the longevity of that pack was horrible. So I haven't just heard the stories... I've suffered the same indignity myself. I know of a battery manufacturer who did a tear down of one of their packs and the way they constructed it was nothing short of abominable.

 

[m@Robertson]

The safe chemistry is LiFePo4, or LFP. Ebike companies do not like the bulk.

LiFePo4 also lives a lot longer. My SoGen uses LiFePo4 cells and they are good for 80% to 0% cycles and I can expect a life of 2000 cycles before they drop to 80% of capacity. 3000 if I am not so aggressive on depth of discharge.
But... size matters, and LiFePo4 is not as dense, so it makes for great big packs.

 

[tomjasz]

LiFePo4 also lives a lot longer. My SoGen uses LiFePo4 cells and they are good for 80% to 0% cycles and I can expect a life of 2000 cycles before they drop to 80% of capacity. 3000 if I am not so aggressive on depth of discharge.
But... size matters, and LiFePo4 is not as dense, so it makes for great big packs.

I thought you mentioned using a USA builder? Who was that? Thanks.
I have a battery coming from Jenny. Shop ordered 30. Hopefully it will workout and not be a repeat of UPP.

 

[tomjasz]

It is good though that you make it clear that you don't make or sell batteries but they are just a hobby.

I either missed this or blocked the memory. And should probably STFU. But given the level of vitriol I’m responding. I’ve been supporting hundreds of battery sales, support, building, repairing my own and have a battery test load setup from Grin. Since 2015. Online and phone support for two well known BBSxx series resellers. As well as a half dozen personal motors representing each type. But true enough it’s just a hobby. Interesting to me that one of the most well rounded “hobby” builder has more experience than many pro’s.

 

[m@Robertson]

I thought you mentioned using a USA builder? Who was that? Thanks.
I have a battery coming from Jenny. Shop ordered 30. Hopefully it will workout and not be a repeat of UPP.

I do for ebikes. I use Matt Bzura @ Bicycle Motor Works (dotcom) and he just delivered to me two 16ah 21700 packs that each have a 70a continuous BMS. I got in just before his recent price increase, but the things are still cheap by the standards of any other USA maker. I upgraded my 2wd ti bike to to give me 32ah total as I found the remote beach riding I do now makes 25ah problematic (as in walking down a narrow, deserted beach in deep sand with no inland access for 5 miles is off the table as a ride outcome).

The LifePO4 'pack' I am using is internal to my Bluetti AC200P, which I use for a campground/portable solar generator. I have 3 folding 200w panels I can hook up to it in series and with good sun can go from zero to full charge from dawn until about 1 in the afternoon. Their use of LifePO4, its longevity and its tolerance for DoD and leaving it up at a full charge for extended periods makes its 60+ lb weight well worth it. when I go camping off grid this is what I use to recharge my Surly.

 

[tomjasz]

I use Matt Bzura @ Bicycle Motor Works (dotcom)

Man! Lots of 52V batteries! I’m moving back to >20Ah 36V. They are getting harder to find. 21700 soft pack from Jenny Mao in route.
Asking if Bzura builds 36V.

Thank you!