Is it safe to freely use the throttle WHILE PEDALING on a mid drive?

[juggernaut]

Have you? Today?
Did you pedal for 4 hours and 51 minutes today? I did.
View attachment 159665

I was even following a young and strong roadie for 9.42 km
View attachment 159666
E-Bike Segment.

I have ridden everyday this week except one when we had thunderstorms. Four days on an hired acoustic bike whilst holidaying, one day on my e hardtail and two days on my eMTB. Unfortunately, being a business owner, I dont have the luxury of time that you have and try to incorporate my cycling into my normal working day, and weekends whenever possible.

The fastest roadie I have come across on my rides to/from work peaked at 45 klm/h, but he couldn’t sustain it, so I just overtook him on my ehardtail - no throttle on this bike. My eMTB is faster again so no contest and nor should there be.

 

[rayray]

If you had ever ridden a bike with a throttle, you'd have the answer to this question. Best to keep an open mind here until you have tried one.....

Actually, my wife has a Rad Class 2 with a cadence sensor. I’ve ridden it, but I hated it with a passion. I really don’t know why the throttle is needed, as it takes almost zero effort to pedal. Wanna get through the intersection quickly? Just tap the darn pedals. The only reason I’ve ridden it more than once is to test it after repairs or adjustments.

Of course, my wife likes it, and she’s said the same as others about intersections. I don’t argue the point with her.

In the end, I do realize it’s a subjective thing. I just know what I like.

Throttle on, you wild and crazy people!

 

[AHicks]

Actually, my wife has a Rad Class 2 with a cadence sensor. I’ve ridden it, but I hated it with a passion. I really don’t know why the throttle is needed, as it takes almost zero effort to pedal. Wanna get through the intersection quickly? Just tap the darn pedals. The only reason I’ve ridden it more than once is to test it after repairs or adjustments.

Of course, my wife likes it, and she’s said the same as others about intersections. I don’t argue the point with her.

In the end, I do realize it’s a subjective thing. I just know what I like.

Throttle on, you wild and crazy people!

Fair point. I would just like to mention if "it takes almost zero effort to pedal", my bet is it's been set/ridden in too high a PAS setting for your tastes? On any RAD I've been on, PAS setting makes no difference in available throttle as far as a road crossing. Same in PAS 1 as PAS 5. I'm talking about PAS setting when just cruising...

 

[m@Robertson]

You cannot ride the Levo in the Walk mode. Making the fundamental difference.

Sure you can. Its only 6 km/h but thats rideable. What it is is impractical, because walk mode is typically mandated to only last for a set amount of time. There's some regulation somewhere. German I think. Right about when you get comfy toodling along at 6 km/h it shuts off and it takes so long for the button-press to re-engage you have to re-balance yourself etc. all over again.

 

[Rome]

Due to Stefan and his throttle issues. I am taking out my Bulls 45 AM from storage this freaking thing has no throttle.
It has no odometer, no way to prove I ridden it daily and keep track of mileage.
My day to day commute is 20 miles give or take 3 miles if I go on base to buy Stoli.
Yeah throttle kinda spoils the fitness part of riding.
That trike is considered a mobility scooter.
Go figure.

 

[PDoz]

Yeah throttle kinda spoils the fitness part of riding.

Spinning cranks is such a tiny part of the exercise involved in riding! I'd go so far as to suggest spinning cranks climbing back up hill is the RECOVERY part of my rides! Downhill, I'm exhausted - EVERY muscle burns after a decent downhill run!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Sure you can. Its only 6 km/h but thats rideable. What it is is impractical, because walk mode is typically mandated to only last for a set amount of time. There's some regulation somewhere. German I think. Right about when you get comfy toodling along at 6 km/h it shuts off and it takes so long for the button-press to re-engage you have to re-balance yourself etc. all over again.

The Walk Mode works as long as you are walking the bike. That is, the speed sensor reports rear wheel RPM > 0, speed < 6 km/h, torque on the pedals = 0. It is not rideable because nobody will ride with their feet hanging in the air and avoiding pedal strokes against their feet. Walk Mode is not a throttle. Not on a mid-drive.

Regarding the discussion with PDoz: I cannot wait until he buys a classy e-MTB with a throttle I will request pictures, of course

Spinning cranks is such a tiny part of the exercise involved in riding! I'd go so far as to suggest spinning cranks climbing back up hill is the RECOVERY part of my rides! Downhill, I'm exhausted - EVERY muscle burns after a decent downhill run!

You might be sore after a downhill ride but it will not burn many calories. If you want to prove a downhill ride is burning calories, please post the number of kcal burnt by your body according to your Levo SL power meter. Yes, you can use a HR monitor for more accurate reading. (Please post a Strava link to such a downhill ride).

 

[PDoz]

You might be sore after a downhill ride but it will not burn many calories. If you want to prove a downhill ride is burning calories, please post the number of kcal burnt by your body according to your Levo SL power meter. Yes, you can use a HR monitor for more accurate reading. (Please post a Strava link to such a downhill ride).

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about!

My levo sl power meter isn't going to register ANY of the energy used to ride down hill . Perhaps you should spend 15 minutes on a pump track with your bike of choice to understand?

A HR monitor is also inaccurate - unlike bum sniffers , the average mtb rider has adrenaline increasing the HR beyond their aerobic needs. I sit between 160-180 down hill and 130-150 climbing, at least I did for the 2 hours I was riding with a holter monitor on last month. That was a gentle solo ride, I work a LOT harder trying to keep up with my 14 yo.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

A HR monitor is also inaccurate

So you have no way to document your effort?

 

[PDoz]

So you have no way to document your effort?

No desire , although the anesthetists I ride with could probably draw pretty pictures for you to try and understand.

For what it's worth, down hill mtb racers generally chew through twice as many calories as elite gravel racers. A cross country racer uses about the same as a gravel racer.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

down hill mtb racers generally chew through twice as many calories as elite gravel racers

Prove it.
Otherwise I take it anecdotal.

The thread is about the mid-drive motor e-bike and a throttle. You do not own any e-MTB equipped with the throttle and you know why. The effort can be easily documented on road and gravel rides. Pedalling does contribute to the health. These are facts even you cannot deny.

Downhill riding and health? Could you elaborate on injuries? Do you advocate that the EBR Forum members should take interest in downhill riding as a measure improving their health? Are you aware the most of members are 60+ years of age?

 

[AHicks]

Prove it.
Otherwise I take it anecdotal.

The thread is about the mid-drive motor e-bike and a throttle. You do not own any e-MTB equipped with the throttle and you know why. The effort can be easily documented on road and gravel rides. Pedalling does contribute to the health. These are facts even you cannot deny.

Downhill riding and health? Could you elaborate on injuries? Do you advocate that the EBR Forum members should take interest in downhill riding as a measure improving their health? Are you aware the most of members are 60+ years of age?

On the bold, let me ask YOU about this fact, with the throttles you insist on bad mouthing rather than letting people make up their own minds in mind....

 

[Stefan Mikes]

On the bold, let me ask YOU about this fact, with the throttles you insist on bad mouthing rather than letting people make up their own minds in mind....

I'd like to see a Strava record of someone riding a throttle e-bike for 62 miles with the figure of the kcal burnt. Unfortunately throttle e-bike riders avoid Strava. Probably they don't want to learn the truth.

 

[Rexlion]

On the way to the nearby MUP, I can take a shortcut across grass if I climb a brief (maybe 12' long) incline that's about a 20 degree grade. It's dirt so I don't want to hit it too fast, and I don't want to change my PAS level or my gear for just that one short incline. So I hit the throttle while pedaling. Simplest solution for me. Don't like my solution? Do your ebike your way, and let me do my ebike my way. Live and let live.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

Unfortunately throttle e-bike riders avoid Strava. Probably they don't want to learn the truth.

As you say, prove it. How could you possibly know that?

For me, not using Strava is a matter of not wanting all of my personal information spread around to everyone on the planet, let alone to the people at Strava. I get that that's appealing to some people, and that's fine for them If there were a way to keep my personal Strava data private I'd probably be interested.

TT

 

[PDoz]

Prove it.
Otherwise I take it anecdotal.

The thread is about the mid-drive motor e-bike and a throttle. You do not own any e-MTB equipped with the throttle and you know why. The effort can be easily documented on road and gravel rides. Pedalling does contribute to the health. These are facts even you cannot deny.

Downhill riding and health? Could you elaborate on injuries? Do you advocate that the EBR Forum members should take interest in downhill riding as a measure improving their health? Are you aware the most of members are 60+ years of age?

This is data related to enduro mtb, they acknowledge down hill mountain bike racers consume higher amounts of energy than enduro, but I think this gives perspective on the phenomena I'm talking about - spinning cranks up hill uses less energy than riding a down hill mountain bike course - you'll notice the elite group were running at 90% vmax down hill, their muscle fatigue was greater after the down hill run than when spinning cranks up hill. It's much cleaner data than strava.

https://jsc-journal.com/index.php/JSC/article/download/318/476

As for injuries / health benefits , I'm struggling to understand what throttle related injuries you are referring to? I guess the reduction in grip strength after a down hill run might reduce your injury from being throttled?

I'd like to see a Strava record of someone riding a throttle e-bike for 62 miles with the figure of the kcal burnt. Unfortunately throttle e-bike riders avoid Strava. Probably they don't want to learn the truth.

The gospel according to Strava ......Stephan, most normal people don't get exercise swiping away on the computer

BTW , crank power during the downhill phase in that article was only 5% of energy used - strava is meaningless

 

[K PierreR]

I wonder why you need a throttle in a mid-drive motor e-bike in the first place...

PCeBiker Said "I pretty much have an electric motorcycle, but if I stay below 32kph, it counts as a bicycle.
I just have to wear a helmet which is no problem because I'm sure to be bouncing off my head. "

The differences here is what I call the 10-90 problem. Stefan believes along with 10% of the population that a bicycle is basically a piece of exercise equipment and PCeBiker believes along with 90% of the population that a bicycle is basically a piece of transportation equipment. Each of these viewpoints boggles the mind of those on the other side of the definition fence when it comes to a throttle.

I'm okay with both. I justify my ebike based solely on good old fashioned hedonistic fun and everything else is just gravy on top. To me a bicycle is a piece of entertainment equipment just like this forum. Throttles are fine and so is turning the bike off. I don't feel one damned bit cheated either way.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Been on a ride today, Jeremy? View attachment 159626
Silly me, I could have done it on a throttle

Discussion with Stefan

Time to call DHL!

 

[mschwett]

This is data related to enduro mtb, they acknowledge down hill mountain bike racers consume higher amounts of energy than enduro, but I think this gives perspective on the phenomena I'm talking about - spinning cranks up hill uses less energy than riding a down hill mountain bike course…

…elite rider produced <50W for 37-56% of the duration of timed stages though average HR was maintained at around 90% of maximum throughout. This discrepancy between power and HR may be due to the workload associated with damping accelerations transferred to the rider from the bicycle as a result of rough terrain (Macdermid et al 2014). Upper body muscular contractions are shown to contribute to this damping effect with greater magnitude of activity on rough terrain when compared with smooth terrain…

thanks for posting this, it’s pretty interesting. i was trying to imagine how this could possibly be true, given the immense magnitude of gravity on a hill compared to wind resistance or other “upper body movements” as they say. i suppose an analog is downhill skiing, which is quite tiring for both the heart and the muscles, but of course has no uphill component typically. all the work done is battling friction or the localized gravity required to lift a part of the body or piece of equipment up or down.

very different from road cycling, where the goal of course is the absolutely minimize those parasitic losses and to get as much of the energy into the cranks and forward progress as possible.

definitely not my cup of tea, but interesting for sure!

 

[PatriciaK]

I hate it when threads devolve into micturation competitions...