I would also like to know who will become (list please?) the 'all in' type manufacturers committing to the American market. These are the people we should be supporting with our purchases while ignoring the rest (not to say that you shouldn't do otherwise; yet the immature market reasoning is obvious).
I would also offer that if a manufacturer is not willing to publicly support his customers presently willing to stick their necks out here at the grassroots level to expand the market for them in terms of access issues...that list should become a lot shorter.
Two huge gatherings of the most important players in the sport (in one month) here in the United States...and not a word of how the uncleansed electric powered masses will be affected/how we can become proactive after the first gathering effectively buried the ebike community in nothing but stall-the-momentum nonsense.
(Edit for timing/date)
[/QUOTE="DashRiprock, post: 8658, member: 620"]Let's take for example organizing around our ebike related rights at the 'international level' last month (the IMTB Summit; which doesn't even come around but every two years):
Not a word from anybody.
The only other opportunity (that at least 'I' know of) to organize around ebikes at the national level this week in Vegas?
Silence.
I would believe that organizing anywhere around ebikes is a tough nut to crack...yet for who? 'Larry' by his lonesome? Is this the convention where somebody will come back with something...or are us ebikers (in general) simply a 'devil may care' lot?
The consensus seems to be that every soul with an ebike can ride anywhere they darn well please..and that nobody in the entire country (on either side of the issue) gives a rip one way or another where exactly that may be.
If your an MTB organization at the state level and you have a top 100 (public land sponsored) trail which the powers that be at the national level hold their support back to you over (for simply allowing ebike access)...then I would call that a national vs state issue (which should be publicly discussed at national events, in my opinion).
Let's take for example organizing around our ebike related rights at the 'international level' last month (the IMTB Summit; which doesn't even come around but every two years):
Not a word from anybody.
The only other opportunity (that at least 'I' know of) to organize around ebikes at the national level this week in Vegas?
Silence.
I would believe that organizing anywhere around ebikes is a tough nut to crack...yet for who? 'Larry' by his lonesome? Is this the convention where somebody will come back with something...or are us ebikers (in general) simply a 'devil may care' lot?
The consensus seems to be that every soul with an ebike can ride anywhere they darn well please..and that nobody in the entire country (on either side of the issue) gives a rip one way or another where exactly that may be.
If your an MTB organization at the state level and you have a top 100 (public land sponsored) trail which the powers that be at the national level hold their support back to you over (for simply allowing ebike access)...then I would call that a national vs state issue (which should be publicly discussed at national events, in my opinion).
Thanks, calvin and exactly to my point. I'm assuming that (IMTB's) Mike VanAble's insistence at the Summit last month that they(we) meet with one of 'their' guys in the room would be of importance here...yet there seems to be no assurances in the referenced article (for the consumer) that anybody (we) will indeed be meeting formally, publicly or otherwise at this venue. If a meeting is never announced which requires an 'announced' conference call beforehand..what expectation does the mere purchasing public have (see no formal/meaningful statement from 'our side' after the recent IMTB Summit that at least I can find) that we will hear anything 'meaningful' afterwards? (other than the usual canned statements that have become the public's thrown bone).
Has there been a meeting date, time and place that has already been published weeks in advance for just this purpose at this once a year convention? If not, how do the individuals who simply 'purchase' these items (full well realizing that consumer input has become less than desirable these days) determine what in the heck could have possibly transpired in Sin City this week affecting their ability to actually/rightfully use said product in the marketplace?
Nothing against the manufacturers and retailers yet I'll give you one example:
A certain American based (international) off road company decided 'once' that they (alone) were going to figure out what need to be done and approach the 'powers that be' regarding access related rights issues in a particular state.
Within 24 hours they were crying like babies that had just got their hands slapped and dropped the entire effort...no statements to anybody in the peon public allowed...no information in regards to the effort 'allowed' by anyone who was involved...period. Was that the last that we (merely those who BUY the product) ever heard of any future effort to do the right thing or 'slap back' at those who would deny our rights?...you guessed it.
Young people today don't realize that the mess they have inherited (and their kids certainly will also) is all about closed doors and why everything which affects them is akin to "saving the free world as we know it" to those making decisions FOR them behind that Oz-like curtain. They will never understand capturing the initiative...due to the fact that they have never been allowed to hunt for it.
I have a lot of faith in the younger generation. Yet if one doesn't don't allow them to take the lead in approaching, organizing and frankly 'fighting' matters such as this for the simply exercise of teaching them what an adversary is all about or how to defeat them (yeah, I realize that most everybody today is too P.C. for the comparison)..then I'm not certain how they'll ever run the place when we're gone.
You've got these smart kids from all over the country in one place...USE THEM!!!
@DashRiprock - I assume you are talking about Eurobike and Interbike, correct? Interbike starts today with Outdoor Demo and closes this Friday with a public day. Eurobike was the 27th - 30th of August. On Aug the 22nd, I was on a panel discussion at the IMBA World Summit in Steamboat Springs, CO to discuss eMountain Bikes, which was very productive and the month prior, elected to the board of the BPSA (Bicycle Products Suppliers Association) and have formed an industry committee on eBikes, with a significant focus on legal and legislative issues. The good news is that the leaders of the bike industry are now all working together on eBike issues and we are attempting to work with advocacy groups, Including IMBA and People for Bikes (and many state and local groups) to work on model legislation that will provide appropriate access for the wide array of eBike types. This will not be a quick fix but rest assured, the entire bicycle industry are part of this committee (including Trek, Specialized, Giant, Cannondale, Felt, Accell North America [Raleigh, Diamondback, Haibike, Lapierre, IZIP, eFlow, Redline and Torker], Pedego, Shimano, Sram and Bosch) and want to see the proliferation of eBikes in North America. I'm not sure that the momentum for eBikes has been stalled in any way. In fact, In my 12+ years in the space, its never been stronger. Of course there will be those from the enthusiast core of cycling that object to eBikes, but its primarily because the product is misunderstood. We are beginning to clear these misconceptions by doing demos with one influential person at a time. Be patient - eBikes will prevail.
Hello Larry. I repeated all of my previous questions above along with at least 'my' understanding of the current situation (as reported widely by others) just in case you missed them.
With all due respect, 'be patient' is a lot easier to accept if at least some of our points are being addressed directly up here (publicly) or even better in Las Vegas this week amongst the uncleansed masses (i.e. the passionate, educated and most importantly 'paying' customers who truly make up this sport and both of our abilities to benefit from it).
We obviously understand 'now' that manufacturers seek to not only build an ebike community 'on their own' (no public/industry commentary after the IMTB Summit despite having our faces slapped, no opportunity for public input during InterBike, no reaction or commentary whatsoever to our own local publicly funded trails being held hostage, etc, etc.) but to
ignore the simplest questions (above) when asked.
Here is a recent sample from the IMBT's PR guy (no less) after being asked
the same simple questions that I have here in regards to ebikes and our right to ride. It is followed by a longtime member of his own organization who simply
tells it like it is in regards to who
we are dealing with out here in the
real world...not necessarily the back-slapping "let's just all go out and have a beer"
fantasy world of Vegas conventions:
http://reviews.mtbr.com/interview-10-important-questions-with-imba-pr-man-mark-eller
Mtbr: Let’s address some of those issues. Where does IMBA stand regarding e-bikes on trails?
Mark Eller: Yeah, e-bikes is at the top of a short list. We have defined mountain biking as a purely human powered experience. But honestly we think it may be a tempest in tea pot *(footnote below)* for North American riding right now. However, it’s definitely a big issue in Europe right now. What we see there is that the Germans stand alone, saying they have solved this through engineering and have embraced pedal assist technology as a game changer. But the rest of Europe resides more of where we are at, saying if it has a motor than it is not a mountain bike. Our stance is that mountain biking is a purely human powered endeavor. (edit: obviously, this organization's leadership so strongly believes this garbage...that they are obliged to make the same false claim twice in the same answer when their communications director spreads their false propaganda to the media).
Here is the 'no b.s.' response from one of those (us) actually living 'real lives' out here in the trenches away from the bicycle lobbying lifestyle:
Your title as Director of Communications should recognize that a big part of communication is listening. It seems more often than not, you really seem more like the Director of Defensiveness. It is OK for folks to be critical of IMBA, in fact some of us are trying to help with comments and criticism we make but IMBA is just not really listening. One bad comment about where IMBA is going and the response is IMBA pushes us "out of the nest". The recent MTBR discussion comparing IMBA and the Access Fund was interesting for me as I have been heavily involved in both organizations from the early days. Here is the thing, I don't know a single rock climber who does not think AF is doing good advocacy work and have great respect. They may not be a AF member, but they do "support" the cause and work. That is not anywhere close to being true with IMBA, in fact it may be true that 50% of all mountain bikers do not respect the path IMBA has chosen to travel. I was in a bike shop last week helping a female friend buy a bike and salesmen went off on IMBA and I don't mean in a good way. There are many of us out there who supported IMBA and worked hard in the "early years" whom now do not think IMBA is going in the right direction. That list of folks includes past Board members, past staff members, past state reps, and Presidents(and BOD members) of clubs and yes even chapters. I had communications this week with the President of a Club (non chapter) and former state rep. He and his board is livid with IMBA right now as IMBA is not helping them at all with insurance and other needs. IMBA encouraged them to build a bike park, but is not helping them now in this "time of need" in any way. I have similar communication almost weekly with "folks in the trenches" whom feel similar.
I think that you see my point here, Larry.
'Our' representation currently points to these 'influentials' (above) and another non-profit who won't even name their board of directors or staff publicly on their website (bike industry front?) http://www.peopleforbikes.org ...as the #1 partners in defending our public riding rights and solving our legal issues...by way of what?
Sending militant IMTB gatekeepers presently preventing us (not very nicely) from riding OUR public trails..pictures of 'smiling kids and grandparents'..on a bicycle?
Question: When 'influential' MikeVanAble rode his first(?) ebike last month (
if he ever allowed himself to be photographed
on one...can anyone get this shot in Vegas?)
did everybody sit around the campfire afterwards singing Kumbayah...or was 'the song the same' as CLEARLY indicated in his remarks immediately afterwards?
Why wouldn't ebikers soon feel the same in regards to
their leadership...if there was no indication from the very beginning that listening was taking place/opinions were being sought or most importantly...that industry/retailers had any idea
whatsoever what OUR challenges were here at the grassroots level?
If anybody is more qualified or more passionate about ebikes than Larry I'd like to meet them. There is NO ONE more qualified to lead this effort and we are darn
lucky to have him.
What I would offer is that this convention is, for many people (again, the 'peons' out here who are often blessed to
own an ebike let alone travel to Vegas)
a once in a lifetime experience.
If the ebike industry thinks so little of this fact that they can't even 'pretend' to host a session (announced well in advance) after all that has been done
behind closed doors in just the past month or so (
with no public commentary whatsoever to their customers currently paying the bills and supporting their salaries/'junkets' to fantasy land)...then I believe that at least a few owners in attendance need to convince the 'powers that be' assembled that they
do indeed possess
value at conventions and right from the beginning of this fight (which obviously
all manufacturers/retailers don't desire our daily public land struggles to be referred to as).
Better yet...why don't you invite these guys to YOUR local riding area..let
them spend the kind of money that YOU just layed out to ooogle
their wares in Sin City...and watch the look on
their faces as the whole group of you get turned away at the gate with a smile.
Thank you very much for your efforts to date, Larry and especially for those in the future involving a sport you obviously have worked so hard to promote. If InterBike 2014 isn't the place that this elitism grossly affecting your customer base is finally (publicly) confronted and in no uncertain terms...I believe that you'll have a hard time obtaining quality grassroots recruits beyond the IMTB guys who have demanded (at the Summit) that they shadow your every move (anyways).
Good luck at the convention and may everybody have a safe journey there and back.
*Definition: "Tempest in a Teapot" (ebiking on public lands as defined by the IMBA):
"...a small event that has been exaggerated out of proportion..."
