I just sent this message to Biktrix regarding the Unprogrammable Canbus Ultra motor

[AHicks]

CANBUS motors can’t be programmed like UART.
BESST and the current hacks/workaround, clever as they are (and they are!), limit you pretty much to:
1. Change the speed limit (which is good)
2. Change wheel size
3. Ability to update firmware to different versions, some of which increase or decrease max current/power/watts, but can not be configured like UART motors.

If you’re not in the US, you can reach out to Innotrace for a replacement controller for the Ultra anyways, while being locked into WattWagons in the US.
Luna may at some point sell their VESC-based LudiV2 controller for the M600 but right now it’s on Luna X2 only, or I believe as an upgrade for Luna X1 owners. I remain hopeful that at some point there is a ‘we sell to anyone’ improved programmable controller available on the market for both M600 and Ultras, but we’re not there yet - this would put real competition into the market, and be good for the end customers IMO. Best I can tell, I haven’t seen any
updates’ of note to the Innotrace software, while WW has people waiting going on a year for just a (unique to Innotrace) programming cable. Have seen numerous updates to the LudiV2 VESC app, but would still like an ‘open market’ option out there to push them all forward.

We’re I in the market for an(other) M600 bike right now, it would be another X2 with LudiV2 controller (I run nowhere near max), although I believe more recent Bafang M600 firmware has improved over what it used to be - would still go Ludi/VESC controller. We’re I looking for an Ultra/M620, either UART or see if a friend outside of the US can pick up a motor sourced from Innotrace. Biktrix made a minor modified firmware available to Monte Capro (at the price, especially with CANBUS, I’d be looking at both Luna Z1 and WW Hydra long before giving them the $$ for a CANBUS Ultgra bike; YMMV), but seems like very minor changes and in no way is it comparable to a ‘tuned’ UART Ultra, Ultra with Innotrace Controller, M600 with LudiV2 etc.

I think it would be interesting to talk with somebody that's received an X2 with a stock M600 recently (the quiet version?). I have an M600 Atlas with a CVD, and can't help but wonder if it's been de-tuned because of the CVD? They're rating it on the Atlas at 120Nm Torque, 600W, 1,200W Peak. Pretty sure I've seen this motor rated higher, but it could have been the noisier version?

 

[rtp]

I think it would be interesting to talk with somebody that's received an X2 with a stock M600 recently (the quiet version?). I have an M600 Atlas with a CVD, and can't help but wonder if it's been de-tuned because of the CVD? They're rating it on the Atlas at 120Nm Torque, 600W, 1,200W Peak. Pretty sure I've seen this motor rated higher, but it could have been the noisier version?

Honestly, I think that’s a normal-specced M600 for torque, and close enough to bafang’s totally weird ‘OE’ site info.
Even the M500 I rented overseas was peaking around 800-900W.
The only way to go higher is wits customer controller, higher current custom firmware (note Bafang is seemingly pushing their full ‘systems’ more to include their not-so-impressive batteries), Lunas prior ‘shunt mod’ etc. I am curious to see if there’s an ‘M610’ in the future like they did with the M500/M510, but realistically unless they’re going to add more metal into the motor there’s only so much power to be had on the M600 before it hits thermal throttling. IMO, it’s a great little motor if/when you have a custom controller or IF the newer OE controller/firmware rides more like the M500 has, but you’re not going to see much more sustained power than the existing offerings.

 

[AHicks]

I'd have to agree it's a great little motor. Not intending to knock it at all. Was just thinking of the programming....

 

[tomjasz]

I really enjoyed and still enjoy by BBSxx series, but after that Bafang fails for me. DIY mid drives are becoming ghosts.

 

[tomjasz]

I'd have to agree it's a great little motor.

 

[AHicks]

I really enjoyed and still enjoy by BBSxx series, but after that Bafang fails for me. DIY mid drives are becoming ghosts.

My thought is there will be a market for them as long as there is a need for mid drives.

 

[tomjasz]

My thought is there will be a market for them as long as there is a need for mid drives.

Maybe. I'm convinced that a significant number of out BBSxx customer overbought on mid drives. I'M AC DC Half Mid Drive Half Grin. Both hubs and mid drives are misused in their actual need or application. BBSxx for billy goats DD with cooling or GD for mules. My 2 month experiment with dual DG convince me hubs could be veritable tractors. But as you know it's all in what you need, or sometimes just perceive your need. I just road my 2014 BBS01(A) 350 at 8 mph up a slope that my 9C cooled rocked up at 14MPH.

My love/hate continues with Bafang. I'm devastated that they've moved towards a "Boschite' philosophy. Struggling with parts streams, firmware F ups and lack of data by serial number has frustrated me.

Almost true...

I just added another 36V 250W...BTW a 20MPH folder with a 15Ah battery that delivers 27 plus miles per charge. With room to breath. BBSxx forever!

 

[AHicks]

Maybe. I'm convinced that a significant number of out BBSxx customer overbought on mid drives. I'M AC DC Half Mid Drive Half Grin. Both hubs and mid drives are misused in their actual need or application. BBSxx for billy goats DD with cooling or GD for mules. My 2 month experiment with dual DG convince me hubs could be veritable tractors. But as you know it's all in what you need, or sometimes just perceive your need. I just road my 2014 BBS01(A) 350 at 8 mph up a slope that my 9C cooled rocked up at 14MPH.

My love/hate continues with Bafang. I'm devastated that they've moved towards a "Boschite' philosophy. Struggling with parts streams, firmware F ups and lack of data by serial number has frustrated me.

Almost true...

I just added another 36V 250W...BTW a 20MPH folder with a 15Ah battery that delivers 27 plus miles per charge. With room to breath. BBSxx forever!

Different terrains very likely, and possibly affected by how much I'm contributing, but my 1000w Mac Powered Rad City with KT controller, my 55lb 500w Espin Sport w/KT conversion (that will allow for brief 1000w bursts), and this newest bike, the M600 powered Atlas, all have 14ah batteries, and all will crack 30 miles on a charge - on average. 35 miles is not unheard of on any of them, and if I'm careful, the little 55lb 500w will hit 40 miles on a charge.

I see Bafang's "Boschite philosophy" may possibly bite them in the butt. For instance it would be really interesting to know how badly their CANBUS Ultra's hurt sales of that motor. I don't care if we are a small percentage of their sales, the UART Ultras were going like gang busters previous to that change. There was a huge demand for them. Now look at it. They have to see that....

 

[tomjasz]

They have to see that....

I've been asking myself that for 6 years...
It seems it is ALL predicated on sales and we're apparently small potatoes globally.
Even the biggest USA importer, by container loads, can't seem to get real data and serial number tracking of changes in firmware and mechanics. Go figure.

My former shop spent significant dollars with consultants trying to sort Bafang direct purchasing and access a strong parts stream. Money pissed away. STILL no central USA source for all parts.

 

[ETinVT]

CANBUS motors can’t be programmed like UART.
BESST and the current hacks/workaround, clever as they are (and they are!), limit you pretty much to:
1. Change the speed limit (which is good)
2. Change wheel size
3. Ability to update firmware to different versions, some of which increase or decrease max current/power/watts, but can not be configured like UART motors.

If you’re not in the US, you can reach out to Innotrace for a replacement controller for the Ultra anyways, while being locked into WattWagons in the US.
Luna may at some point sell their VESC-based LudiV2 controller for the M600 but right now it’s on Luna X2 only, or I believe as an upgrade for Luna X1 owners. I remain hopeful that at some point there is a ‘we sell to anyone’ improved programmable controller available on the market for both M600 and Ultras, but we’re not there yet - this would put real competition into the market, and be good for the end customers IMO. Best I can tell, I haven’t seen any
updates’ of note to the Innotrace software, while WW has people waiting going on a year for just a (unique to Innotrace) programming cable. Have seen numerous updates to the LudiV2 VESC app, but would still like an ‘open market’ option out there to push them all forward.

We’re I in the market for an(other) M600 bike right now, it would be another X2 with LudiV2 controller (I run nowhere near max), although I believe more recent Bafang M600 firmware has improved over what it used to be - would still go Ludi/VESC controller. We’re I looking for an Ultra/M620, either UART or see if a friend outside of the US can pick up a motor sourced from Innotrace. Biktrix made a minor modified firmware available to Monte Capro (at the price, especially with CANBUS, I’d be looking at both Luna Z1 and WW Hydra long before giving them the $$ for a CANBUS Ultgra bike; YMMV), but seems like very minor changes and in no way is it comparable to a ‘tuned’ UART Ultra, Ultra with Innotrace Controller, M600 with LudiV2 etc.

Any chance you've got a copy of the firmware file for the Monte Capro?

 

[rtp]

Any chance you've got a copy of the firmware file for the Monte Capro?

I don't - from what I've seen, the 'Biktrix modified firmware' was only available to Monte Capro (maybe others) owners/their direct customers.
At some point I had my hands on a document describing the changes they made, and they were minor - nothing comparable even remotely to the UART Ultra level of settings or changes, and certainly no 'magic solution.'

At this point, we don't even reliably know for certain if all of the equivalent UART parameters/configuration even is read/write-able on the CANBUS motors/controllers. Occam's Razor and observed Bafang business practices would lead me to think - probably, but considering how 'anti-user-changes' they seem to have been or have become over time, who knows?

 

[greeno]

Im guessing Biktrix firmware settings for their Ultra motors are similar to a WW Archon X1 perimeter programming.
100% different in programming levels than the original 4 tab option available on the stock bafang firmware.
Even the older BBSHD/SO1/SO2 3 tab programming layout is more detailed than the WW set-up.

My buddy has a Biktrix Juggernaut FS Pro and it came with of course an Ultra motor and the stock bafang firmware and we modified the setting to improve the performance a ton. Not quite as refined as the Archon X1 but hard to tell the difference unless you know.

 

[rtp]

Im guessing Biktrix firmware settings for their Ultra motors are similar to a WW Archon X1 perimeter programming.
100% different in programming levels than the original 4 tab option available on the stock bafang firmware.
Even the older BBSHD/SO1/SO2 3 tab programming layout is more detailed than the WW set-up.

My buddy has a Biktrix Juggernaut FS Pro and it came with of course an Ultra motor and the stock bafang firmware and we modified the setting to improve the performance a ton. Not quite as refined as the Archon X1 but hard to tell the difference unless you know.

Is his Juggernaut UART or CANBUS?

WW/Innotrace UI and settings seem to be pretty basic, although the inherent controller behavior is of course much better, just not user-settable.
Changes around how/when power kicks in and how fast/smooth/ramping, as well as over-runs are typical imporovements for UART but remain complaints for CAN Ultras - probably among the biggest beyond 'can't program myself.'

It's possible Biktrix has continued to manage to get firmware improvements that actually make a (significant) difference, but seems somewhat unlikely considering Bafang's history and how long the CAN Ultras have been out and being griped about at this point..

 

[greeno]

Uh his controller protocol is UART.
Bike's about 1 1/2yrs old.
The settings that the bike came with were not as good as it could of been.
I agree WW adjustable settings are minimal at best.
One setting each for Torque, Throttle, Sensitivity Torque, Max Speed Torque, Max Speed Throttle, and Motor Torque with a sliding scale from 1-10.

Where with the Bafang software you can dig pretty deep for multiple situations.
I know we modified the Basic, Pedal Assist, Throttle Handle, and Torque values from the original Biktrix settings.
Kind of a mixture from the Frey and Penov settings.

 

[taserface]

It's possible Biktrix has continued to manage to get firmware improvements that actually make a (significant) difference, but seems somewhat unlikely considering Bafang's history and how long the CAN Ultras have been out and being griped about at this point..

I am particularly interested in this part...

The CANBUS shift has me quite concerned (as I have always read poor feedback about the stock settings and different bikes/setups warrant different settings), but I don't have a great grasp on the current state of things after trying to catch up (particularly any developments in the last 6-12 months). I'm catching up from ~2017/2018 and am looking to upgrade my old BBSHD bike to something w/ good/smooth/responsive torque sensing...

- Are bike dealers still hamstrung on being able to do any customizations for their bikes? Do they have any means to create their own custom firmware targeted for their SKUs? Is there any transparency about what can/cannot be done being provided?
- Any known plans from Bafang to allow more customization via CANBUS going forward (even if behind a paywall of some sort, etc)?
- Are there any sellers still sourcing UART version... or have better means than others to customize (Biktrix, Frey, etc, etc)?
- Has anyone taken delivery and evaluated the tuning in recent months (CANBUS model)? Any changes from early stock CANBUS settings/tuning?

I am in the market for an ebike in the 3.5-5k range, but am starting to consider the DIY route or something with a custom controller, etc (EG: maybe Luna Z1 w/ VESC?)... though, would prefer to get one of a handful of Bafang Ultra centric bikes that otherwise check all my boxes and be done w/ it (but absolutely don't want to spend that much money to be locked into something I am not happy with). I was close to buying a UB2 last week prior seeing all of this .

(I also just don't understand Bafang's intention with all of this. They have no apparent means to monetize the shift to CANBUS, correct? (at least so far) I understand CANBUS gives them more proprietary control, but what are they gaining in said control without some means to charge users for access, etc? If they paywalled "advanced tuning access" for $99 or whatever, I could at least see the payoff for them... but current state (from what I know) just seems like it is simply worse for all involved (unless I'm missing something).)

Thanks

 

[rtp]

I am particularly interested in this part...

The CANBUS shift has me quite concerned (as I have always read poor feedback about the stock settings and different bikes/setups warrant different settings), but I don't have a great grasp on the current state of things after trying to catch up (particularly any developments in the last 6-12 months). I'm catching up from ~2017/2018 and am looking to upgrade my old BBSHD bike to something w/ good/smooth/responsive torque sensing...

- Are bike dealers still hamstrung on being able to do any customizations for their bikes? Do they have any means to create their own custom firmware targeted for their SKUs? Is there any transparency about what can/cannot be done being provided?
- Any known plans from Bafang to allow more customization via CANBUS going forward (even if behind a paywall of some sort, etc)?
- Are there any sellers still sourcing UART version... or have better means than others to customize (Biktrix, Frey, etc, etc)?
- Has anyone taken delivery and evaluated the tuning in recent months (CANBUS model)? Any changes from early stock CANBUS settings/tuning?

I am in the market for an ebike in the 3.5-5k range, but am starting to consider the DIY route or something with a custom controller, etc (EG: maybe Luna Z1 w/ VESC?)... though, would prefer to get one of a handful of Bafang Ultra centric bikes that otherwise check all my boxes and be done w/ it (but absolutely don't want to spend that much money to be locked into something I am not happy with). I was close to buying a UB2 last week prior seeing all of this .

(I also just don't understand Bafang's intention with all of this. They have no apparent means to monetize the shift to CANBUS, correct? (at least so far) I understand CANBUS gives them more proprietary control, but what are they gaining in said control without some means to charge users for access, etc? If they paywalled "advanced tuning access" for $99 or whatever, I could at least see the payoff for them... but current state (from what I know) just seems like it is simply worse for all involved (unless I'm missing something).)

Thanks

There's no Ludi/VESC for the Z1, but Luna's Z1 still has UART motors/controllers and is in your price range.
I think they SHOULD make the Ludi/VESC controller available for CANBUS Ultras, but I'm not in charge of Luna..
Innotrace controller AFAIK works for CANBUS motors, but in the US, WattWagons is the sole distributor.

Biktrix made a claim to a custom firmware being available, but it still wasn't user-configurable, and changes seemed to be pretty minimal, meaning a 'programmable' controller or UART is still a better choice.
I'm unaware of any Bafang plans to make CANBUS motors user-configurable - seems like nothing has changed there AFAIK.

 

[taserface]

There's no Ludi/VESC for the Z1, but Luna's Z1 still has UART motors/controllers and is in your price range.
I think they SHOULD make the Ludi/VESC controller available for CANBUS Ultras, but I'm not in charge of Luna..
Innotrace controller AFAIK works for CANBUS motors, but in the US, WattWagons is the sole distributor.

Biktrix made a claim to a custom firmware being available, but it still wasn't user-configurable, and changes seemed to be pretty minimal, meaning a 'programmable' controller or UART is still a better choice.
I'm unaware of any Bafang plans to make CANBUS motors user-configurable - seems like nothing has changed there AFAIK.

Ahh, sorry, I meant X2. I know it is the M600+VESC (not Ultra), but was considering it for the better tuning options in favor over the Ultra CANBUS.
I didn't know the Z1 was still UART, so that's good to know, though... but yeah, VESC+Ultra option would be amazing. I have used VESC in other applications and would love to see it get more traction w/ ebikes.

Innotrace controller did pique my interest (especially if I went DIY), but tbh, I didn't like how much more expensive WW was compared to Innotrace (double, AFAICT). I'm sure there is more to the price difference, but makes it a lot harder for me to rationalize the value prop with that big of a disparity and only a single distributor option ($2k for motor/controller is a lot, IMO, and the $200 for the cable/software feels a bit like adding insult to injury when it appears the same combo would be roughly $1050 from Innotrace (after removing VAT)... and WW offers less customization than Innotrace direct, from what I could see).

I am still trying to confirm, but I heard most of the Frey Bikes are still UART. I am waiting to hear from Biktrix with some simlar questions, but I don't suppose there is any place this is being tracked from vs. reaching out individually? I'm wondering if there are any other known manufacturers/bikes sticking with UART (at least in the near term). CANBUS is a hard dealbreaker for me currently, at least w/o some roadmap being communicated for enabling access.

EDIT: never heard back from Biktrix, but looks like they are CAN AFAICT. I was able to confirm Frey uses UART on everything except for the Beast (as of the time of this edit, at least) and I ordered the AM1000 v6.

 

[greeno]

Just ordered a spare UART controller from GBK and they still had UART bare bones motors for about 7 bills. Get em before their all gone.

 

[tomjasz]

Just ordered a spare UART controller from GBK and they still had UART bare bones motors for about 7 bills. Get em before their all gone.

GBK ROCKS!

 

[greeno]

Controller showed up today and just an FYI to anyone else who orders one they come already mounted to the motor housing so no need to remove the old one on your existing motor, just split the case and unplug your phase leads and add a bit of grease if needed and your good to go.
This one is UART style 52v, 30a, 1000w.

Hell it even comes with a new gasket.

Only thing you might want to check is the control wiring running through the rubber grommet, I had a couple of slices showing bare wire, easy fix but could be an issue if it comes into contact with anything while energized.