I just bought an ET.CYCLE T1000

[PCeBiker]

EDIT:
Your battery probably has 13 cells in series?
(48V 13S,.. 13 cells in Series)

It depends on how your battery is made.
13 cells in series allows for a higher charge voltage and increases capacity.

In a large capacity battery, each of those 13 cells has multiple cells connected in parallel with it.
So basically more cells stacked on top of the one with all the positives and all the negatives connected together to the one cell.

That's where things get difficult because to test the voltage of each individual cell in the stack, you have to remove the cell from the circuit by disconnecting it.

You can check the voltage of the stack but you won't know the voltage of the individual cells.

A properly and safely built battery will monitor the voltage between each cell of the 13 in series (each of the 13 with multiple cells in parallel) and shut down the battery when any one of the 13 cell groups drops to about 3.1 volts or so (depends on the settings in the BMS)

 

[Fred]

EDIT:
Your battery probably has 13 cells in series?
(48V 13S,.. 13 cells in Series)

View attachment 143365

It depends on how your battery is made.
13 cells in series allows for a higher charge voltage and increases capacity.

In a large capacity battery, each of those 13 cells has multiple cells connected in parallel with it.
So basically more cells stacked on top of the one with all the positives and all the negatives connected together to the one cell.

That's where things get difficult because to test the voltage of each individual cell in the stack, you have to remove the cell from the circuit by disconnecting it.

You can check the voltage of the stack but you won't know the voltage of the individual cells.

A properly and safely built battery will monitor the voltage between each cell of the 13 in series (each of the 13 with multiple cells in parallel) and shut down the battery when any one of the 13 cell groups drops to about 3.1 volts or so (depends on the settings in the BMS)

Thanks for the thoughts. I'm not an expert on batteries, but have a decent understanding of what goes on. As you say, a "48 volt" pack will be a 13sNp configuration. In the Reention packs, the "N" is 5, so there are (5x13) = 65 cells in there. The capacity difference is just due to the capacity of the individual cells. Also, in the 25Ah pack, it still has 65 cells, but they are the larger, higher caapcity 21700 cells. It is heavier and the case is bigger to accomodate the physically larger cells.
As for the BMS, there are at least two types that we usually see. One has a common connection for charge and discharge (as in the diagram you showed), whereas the other has an additional connection (C-) where the -ve port of the charger connection goes. The BMS in the Reention packs is this 2nd type with the C- port for charger connection. It should read the same voltage as the discharge side but on mine it isn't. I'm investigating why, but in the meantime, I have another BMS on the way. Here's a decent description of the two types of BMS's.

Two types of BMSs and each wiring diagram

There are two most common types of BMS on the market. The most obvious difference is one has "C-", and one hasn't. Please check the below pictures:1. BMS with C- wire:2. BMS without C- wire:when charge port and discharge port are the same:when charge port is not the same as discharge...

www.sunkko.net

If you want to see a photo of the BMS - which should be the same as yours - let me know.

Keep in mind that this is only my understanding of how it works!!

 

[PCeBiker]

Thanks for that.
I learned something.

The BMS in the Reention packs is this 2nd type with the C- port for charger connection. It should read the same voltage as the discharge side but on mine it isn't.

I have a Reention battery but I am only reading 1.375 volts on the charge port?

If you want to see a photo of the BMS - which should be the same as yours - let me know.

Yes, I'm curious, but not curious enough to take my battery apart to investigate. lol


I have a 25 AH battery from Jenny on my wish list.
I might get one next year?

 

[Fred]

I have a Reention battery but I am only reading 1.375 volts on the charge port?

That's interesting. Like I said, I'm no expert. I'll be playing with it a bit more -- and try not to set anything on fire!!
I'll send a pic later..

 

[PCeBiker]

@Fred
I investigated my battery a bit more and put it on charge to bring the voltage up to 50.9 volts measured at the output port.
The instant it turned off the charger, the voltage dropped to 50.4 volts.

Then I checked the charge port and it was reading over 10 volts and was quickly dropping.
It dropped to 7.29 volts by the time I took this picture.



After about five minutes, it has dropped to 2.102 volts and it's still dropping.




I'm about 98% sure that it proves that I have a BMS with a C- input.

If I had a BMS with the charge port and the discharge port being the same, there is no way that I should get a different reading on the two ports.

When I am measuring the voltage on the charge port, I am probably reading the voltage of a small capacitor inside the BMS.

A voltmeter draws a tiny bit of current from the circuit it is measuring and if it is measuring a small capacitor, it will slowly deplete the voltage of the capacitor.


I'm pretty sure that you ordered the wrong BMS.
Send it back. Lol


The BMS that you did order should probably work but I'm pretty sure that a BMS with the inputs and outputs being isolated from each other is a better and safer design.
It's possible that having isolated inputs and outputs allows for on/off switch and battery level indicator functionality?


If your battery will charge through the charge port with your charger, and your only issue is that your battery performance is lacking, then there is probably nothing wrong with your BMS or charger.

You probably just have some worn out cells in your battery.

I would think that if you run your battery down to where it cuts out (or close to it) you should be able to check the voltage on each of the 13 cell groups.

If 1 or 2 of the cells groups is reading a voltage below the rest, then you found the cell group with a bad cell or two.
If all the cell groups are reading the same voltage, then it pretty much means that your battery is worn out and can no longer hold a full charge.


Be careful if you decide to replace a cell or few.
That's when you can overcharge a cell somewhere else in the battery, but a well designed BMS should prevent that.
It makes sure that each of 13 cell groups never gets a voltage higher than 4.21 volts.

 

[Fred]

@Fred
I investigated my battery a bit more and put it on charge to bring the voltage up to 50.9 volts measured at the output port.
The instant it turned off the charger, the voltage dropped to 50.4 volts.

Then I checked the charge port and it was reading over 10 volts and was quickly dropping.
It dropped to 7.29 volts by the time I took this picture.

View attachment 143413

After about five minutes, it has dropped to 2.102 volts and it's still dropping.

View attachment 143414


I'm about 98% sure that it proves that I have a BMS with a C- input.

If it's the same as mine, yours does indeed have the C- input. I'm still not sure what the benefit of that design is, bt there must be something

View attachment 143415

If I had a BMS with the charge port and the discharge port being the same, there is no way that I should get a different reading on the two ports.

View attachment 143416

When I am measuring the voltage on the charge port, I am probably reading the voltage of a small capacitor inside the BMS.

Agree

A voltmeter draws a tiny bit of current from the circuit it is measuring and if it is measuring a small capacitor, it will slowly deplete the voltage of the capacitor.

Agree

I'm pretty sure that you ordered the wrong BMS.
Send it back. Lol

The one I ordered has a C- connector. I cannot find the custome BMS that Reention use.

The BMS that you did order should probably work but I'm pretty sure that a BMS with the inputs and outputs being isolated from each other is a better and safer design.
It's possible that having isolated inputs and outputs allows for on/off switch and battery level indicator functionality?

I don't think so. The on/off switch.charge indicator has it's own separate board with several connections to the BMS (which I believe is a custom BMS). I might be able to get the on/off to work.

If your battery will charge through the charge port with your charger, and your only issue is that your battery performance is lacking, then there is probably nothing wrong with your BMS or charger.

I know the charger is good.

You probably just have some worn out cells in your battery.

I would think that if you run your battery down to where it cuts out (or close to it) you should be able to check the voltage on each of the 13 cell groups.

If 1 or 2 of the cells groups is reading a voltage below the rest, then you found the cell group with a bad cell or two.
If all the cell groups are reading the same voltage, then it pretty much means that your battery is worn out and can no longer hold a full charge.

Yes...it's a bit of a challenge to check voltage on each cell group because of the way this thing is put together. I can do it via the balance wire connections.

Be careful if you decide to replace a cell or few.
That's when you can overcharge a cell somewhere else in the battery, but a well designed BMS should prevent that.
It makes sure that each of 13 cell groups never gets a voltage higher than 4.21 volts.

I will not be replacing a cell or two. If I can't get it to work properly, I may harvest the cells for another project.

This is more of a learning experience for me as I don't really need this pack.

 

[PCeBiker]

If it's the same as mine, yours does indeed have the C- input. I'm still not sure what the benefit of that design is, bt there must be something

I'm kinda thinking that having the inputs and outputs separated is a safer more controllable design?

However, my new battery charger for my old 36 volt lead acid battery powered ebike is described as having "common mains".

That allows the charger to accurately monitor the battery voltage and the charger output voltage so it can shut down when the battery is fully charged, and go into maintenance mode where it turns back on to bring the voltage back up when the battery voltage drops due to leakage.

If the input and output are separated, then there could be a voltage drop across the wires and connectors and temperature plays a role too, so the charger may not get an accurate reading of the battery voltage and overcharge the battery.
The same might be true for the BMS with a lithium battery?

That's the way I understand it anyway.

I am not a battery expert either, but I took a lot of electronics in school and have enough knowledge to understand what I read, and I love trying to figure out schematic diagrams.
It's like doing a crossword puzzle for me.

Feel free to inform or correct me when I might be talking out my ass.
Lol

I don't think so. The on/off switch.charge indicator has it's own separate board with several connections to the BMS (which I believe is a custom BMS). I might be able to get the on/off to work.

I think that you bought the right BMS then.
You should be able to hook up the on/off switch/charge indicator to your new BMS, but I would need the schematic diagrams to know for sure.
I don't have enough electronics education to reverse engineer a circuit board without schematics.
You should be able to measure all the connection points and voltages of the old and new BMS to know where to attach wires without a schematic diagram if both the old and new BMS are working properly. (which I think they are?)

Yes...it's a bit of a challenge to check voltage on each cell group because of the way this thing is put together. I can do it via the balance wire connections.

Yeah, that's all you need to do as far as I see it.
Check all the voltages after a full charge with your charger plugged in properly and after a discharge.

You could even monitor the voltage on those wires as the battery is discharging to see what cell group drops the fastest or if they all drop at the same rate?

I will not be replacing a cell or two. If I can't get it to work properly, I may harvest the cells for another project.

Good.
I would hate to stop hearing from you because you got all burned up in a fire. Lol

This is more of a learning experience for me as I don't really need this pack.

Yeah me too.
I didn't buy a new ebike for exercise, I bought it for something to do.
I need to get off my lazy stoned and drunk ass and get out of the house.

I only ride sober, so I drink and toke less when I'm out riding.
I'm snowed in and wasted today but it's supposed to warm up and melt.

Exercise is just a byproduct of my new hobby, and riding around on my ole ebike was just embarrassing. Lol


Ohh, and by the way,..
My battery is only charged to about 70% right now.
I'll bet that when I fully charge my battery for my next ride next week, my charge input voltage will climb to 33 volts and beyond to 48 volts at full charge?
We'll see, but I'm not fully charging it until just before my ride.
I want to be as nice to my battery as possible.

 

[PCeBiker]

 

[PCeBiker]

@Fred
I went for a ride today and fully charged my battery before I left.
I checked the charge port voltage after the charge and got this,..




So maybe your charge port reading 33 volts is proof that your BMS has failed?
You said that your battery had lost performance, but was it still charging through the charge port?

And BTW, my new display is completely useless to me.
The bike lunges forward even with the throttle set to 6 kph.

 

[Fred]

@Fred
I went for a ride today and fully charged my battery before I left.
I checked the charge port voltage after the charge and got this,..

View attachment 143817


So maybe your charge port reading 33 volts is proof that your BMS has failed?
You said that your battery had lost performance, but was it still charging through the charge port?

As far as I know the battery has not lost performance. I know one of the BMS balance wires is not connected so I am trying to get that reconnected and see what happens. Yes...it charges thru the charge port fine and I measured all the cell groups and they seem to be in balance

And BTW, my new display is completely useless to me.
The bike lunges forward even with the throttle set to 6 kph.

I assume you mean you set the Pedal Assist Max to 6 kph? I would think that is the one that might cause lunge forward??

 

[PCeBiker]

As far as I know the battery has not lost performance. I know one of the BMS balance wires is not connected so I am trying to get that reconnected and see what happens. Yes...it charges thru the charge port fine and I measured all the cell groups and they seem to be in balance

That could be why you were reading 33V instead of 3 or 4V like my battery?

I assume you mean you set the Pedal Assist Max to 6 kph? I would think that is the one that might cause lunge forward??

No, my PAS mode choices are 0, 20, 25, 32 and 45.

My throttle choices are 6, 20 and 32.

I had my display PAS mode set to 0 (with the display button, not in the settings) (I didn't pedal at all today.)

I had my throttle set to 6kph, and using just my throttle, starting from a stop, I twisted the throttle just enough to engage it and it lurched forward so fast that it was going 11 kph before it even knew how fast it was going then cut the power off until the speed dropped back down to 6 kph.


I did have my PAS mode set to 32 in the settings though, and I didn't try turning it down to 0 with the throttle set to 6kph, so I'll give that a try and see what happens.
It's probably the same though.
That's just stupid.

Some little kid or grandma who can only safely go 6kph (or 20kph) isn't going to be safe when the bike launches to 11kph in a microsecond.

 

[Fred]

That could be why you were reading 33V instead of 3 or 4V like my battery?



No, my PAS mode choices are 0, 20, 25, 32 and 45.

My throttle choices are 6, 20 and 32.

I had my display PAS mode set to 0 (with the display button, not in the settings) (I didn't pedal at all today.)

I had my throttle set to 6kph, and using just my throttle, starting from a stop, I twisted the throttle just enough to engage it and it lurched forward so fast that it was going 11 kph before it even knew how fast it was going then cut the power off until the speed dropped back down to 6 kph.


I did have my PAS mode set to 32 in the settings though, and I didn't try turning it down to 0 with the throttle set to 6kph, so I'll give that a try and see what happens.
It's probably the same though.
That's just stupid.

Some little kid or grandma who can only safely go 6kph (or 20kph) isn't going to be safe when the bike launches to 11kph in a microsecond.

Oh...now I see.

Sounds like some Moscow owners are seeing the same thing. Maybe NCM are putting the new "improved" motor/controller combo into some of their other bikes?

Owners Forum of NCM Bikes | Facebook

This group has been started to bring the NCM ebike community together in one centralized location. There are other fantastic threads on other forums spread all over the internet, however it takes a...

www.facebook.com

 

[PCeBiker]

Sounds like some Moscow owners are seeing the same thing. Maybe NCM are putting the new "improved" motor/controller combo into some of their other bikes?

I didn't know about that.
I can't see why you'd need a "new and improved" motor and controller just to simply turn the the damn power down?
I'm researching a KT controller/display to "fix" the problem that shouldn't be there in the first place.

I can't check out that link without joining Facebook.
I might consider joining?

 

[Fred]

I didn't know about that.
I can't see why you'd need a "new and improved" motor and controller just to simply turn the the damn power down?
I'm researching a KT controller/display to "fix" the problem that shouldn't be there in the first place.

I can't check out that link without joining Facebook.
I might consider joining?

I meant that this is the 1st time I have seen anything like this mentioned by a new Moscow owner. As he says in the post, the one he rented (probably older) had a more controlled feel. Here's the post from FB.
---

Darrell Hornick​

· 3h ·

New Moscow Plus. Is there a way to adjust the throttle? Seems like it’s almost all or nothing. The one I rented in Albuquerque was smooth and responsive from slow to fast.

 

[PCeBiker]

I meant that this is the 1st time I have seen anything like this mentioned by a new Moscow owner. As he says in the post, the one he rented (probably older) had a more controlled feel. Here's the post from FB.
---

Darrell Hornick​

· 3h ·

New Moscow Plus. Is there a way to adjust the throttle? Seems like it’s almost all or nothing. The one I rented in Albuquerque was smooth and responsive from slow to fast.

Huh??
Well that's confusing.
How can NCM view the new version an improvement over the old version?

How can an all or nothing throttle be considered an improvement?
My bike does have have a newer "quick throttle" and I know that Amego mentioned in an EBR review that they "upgraded" the throttle to a newer, thinner, more durable throttle.

I have my twist throttle installed which is probably similar to the old "fat thumb throttle" with a more granular movement, but it still sucks. Lol

A throttle should control the power just like a car or motorcycle.

 

[Fred]

Huh??
Well that's confusing.
How can NCM view the new version an improvement over the old version?

How can an all or nothing throttle be considered an improvement?
My bike does have have a newer "quick throttle" and I know that Amego mentioned in an EBR review that they "upgraded" the throttle to a newer, thinner, more durable throttle.

I have my twist throttle installed which is probably similar to the old "fat thumb throttle" with a more granular movement, but it still sucks. Lol

A throttle should control the power just like a car or motorcycle.

No...I probably caused the confusion. The "new and improved" wording was my own sarcastic description of what it seems to be. I don't think NCM ever advertised that. I just saw the post I attached and it was the 1st time I had seen any reference to throttle issues on the Moscow...so was wondering if they're now putting the same drive system on the other bikes as they did on your T1000.
Do you think this is caused by the throttle itself or the way the controller/motor combo responds to the voltages it sees? I have one of those thin throttles, and have not noticed a problem with granularity. However, I use the throttle very little and when I do (for a boost when passing or starting from a stop), I don't need a lot of granularity. I'll try it with throttle only next time I go for a ride

 

[PCeBiker]

No...I probably caused the confusion. The "new and improved" wording was my own sarcastic description of what it seems to be. I don't think NCM ever advertised that.

Ohh, OK.
I remember seeing the woman from Amego mentioning that they changed the throttle on her ebike to the "quick throttle" during the EBR YouTube video.
I think that all NCM/Das-Kit bikes made the change?

I'm pretty sure quick means on/off. Lol
They should have just installed a button labeled "TURBO SWITCH". Lol

I just saw the post I attached and it was the 1st time I had seen any reference to throttle issues on the Moscow...so was wondering if they're now putting the same drive system on the other bikes as they did on your T1000.

I don't think so?
I'm pretty sure the T1000 has a fatter/thicker/wider motor to go with its fat tires and wider frame, and it is a 750w motor?

This is what the different web sites are showing for the Moscow Plus and T1000,..

Etcycle.com lists the T1000 as X15F (F for fat I think?), when just above the spec sheet, it says it's a G20 motor.
I've also heard it being called a G26 motor.

Do you think this is caused by the throttle itself or the way the controller/motor combo responds to the voltages it sees?

I think that it's kinda both and I think it's the firmware built into both the controller and display?

When I was stopped with the throttle set to 6kph, the bike just launched, but when I was rolling along at 3 or 4kph and I twisted the throttle on, the power was smoother, and it only took it back up to 6kph, not 11kph.

I have one of those thin throttles, and have not noticed a problem with granularity. However, I use the throttle very little and when I do (for a boost when passing or starting from a stop), I don't need a lot of granularity. I'll try it with throttle only next time I go for a ride

Try your throttle again from a stop and see if you can get your bike to accelerate slowly.
I'll bet that you can't, but I think your controller/display are programmed differently.

When I was playing around with my different wheel sizes with my new display, the bike was always going what felt like the same speed.
Even with the display showing something like 22 kph for a 20"x4.00 wheel (like an F1000) it was still going the same speed as all the the other wheel sizes to make sure that my T1000 won't go faster than 32kph.

The only way to actually get the bike to actually go 22kph (according to the speedometer reading) would be to remove the motor from the wheel and install it in a 20" wheel.
So why give us access to wheel sizes in the settings when it makes absolutely no difference?
That's just stupid !!

I think that the controller for the F1000 has different firmware in it so that it will actually go 32kph when you select 20"x4.00 and your speed is reading 32kph?

 

[Fred]

I'll try that with my throttle. I do believe the controllers are different and/or programmed differently. The T720 and T1000 show the Controller as 22A wheras the Moscow and my bike are 18A.

 

[PCeBiker]

I'll try that with my throttle. I do believe the controllers are different and/or programmed differently. The T720 and T1000 show the Controller as 22A wheras the Moscow and my bike are 18A.

I think that the Canadian version is an 18 amp controller to be legal here, but I don't think that there is any regulation as to how long the motor is allowed to run at peak power?
So I think that the motor may actually be running at 750 Watts for the majority of the time, because it is probably actually a 750w motor with 1000W peak?
So that would all be firmware adjustments between all the different Das-Kit bikes?

 

[Fred]

You may have already seen this, but if you do decide to change controller/display, this link refers to one that supposedly works well:

Alternative Display and Controller for NCM (DAS-KIT)

Wanting to increase the PAS Max speed on my NCM bike I be quite satisfied with around 30-35kmh it currently 25kmh The Das-Kit system appears to be complete locked down so I'm considering if Sourcing a alternate KT display and controller that would plug and play with the current hub motor...

electricbikereview.com

However, if you change any more parts on that beast, you won't be able to call it a T1000! (lol)