How to Best Charge Battery for Longest Life

[tomjasz]

Sorry, I don't like the Kool Aid... here's the complete piece. https://data.bloomberglp.com/bnef/sites/14/2017/07/BNEF-Lithium-ion-battery-costs-and-market.pdf The reality is the eBike market hasn't made any big strides. Again, the customer packs aren't any earth shaking or steps forward in technology. All just Kool Aid... We've enjoyed larger capacities but nt significant technological improvements. The data is skewed.

 

[tomjasz]

This report supports the hypothesis, but the market prices to the eBike industry don't show this same drop. Over think we're still on hold until the silicon tech becomes a factor. NMC has been around and is only beginning to show decreases. I guarantee profits on batteries are NOT up anywhere near the Bloomberg report.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...0/9/1314/pdf&usg=AOvVaw3Tu4CKkTbpyVVPZUoy1ozB

 

[Teebok]

Is it ok to turn on the bike while it's plugged in to the charger so I can check the voltage?

 

[tomjasz]

Is it ok to turn on the bike while it's plugged in to the charger so I can check the voltage?

sure, but nearly all displays are not as accurate as a multimeter.

 

[AlexS]

Thomas good news it look Like Luna cycles really stepped to the plate with all kinds of new technologies in their new battery packs including wirebonding and an ultra smart bms:

http://www.electricbike.com/luna-cycle-announces-wire-bonded-ebike-battery-packs/

 

[Asher]

Thomas good news it look Like Luna cycles really stepped to the plate with all kinds of new technologies in their new battery packs including wirebonding and an ultra smart bms:

http://www.electricbike.com/luna-cycle-announces-wire-bonded-ebike-battery-packs/

What is the benefit to the end user? Cheaper? More durable?

 

[Asher]

FWIW, to my novice eyes, Luna Cycles likes to puff itself up as a terrific value compared to everyone else, but does little to prove it.

Compared to a Juiced CCS 19ah for $2k, their bikes have no warranty, sometimes no rack, and a smaller battery. Sure, their bikes may have better motors, but I don't see much complaint from Juiced riders about being able to hit 20/28mph speeds. Luna is comparing itself to retail brands... When it has far less service than them.

If Luna is better bang for the buck, they've failed to communicate that clearly to customers.

 

[FMG III]

I have had the opportunity to work a little bit with Eric at Luna, and I really, really like him. He has the wild passion, dedication, and thrust that warrants a great deal of respect. Luna used to be able to tout the 'value' proposition a couple of years ago, but the ebike industry, like everything else in life, changes rapidly. Now you have more players that are taking the industry seriously and bringing with it differing trends in market placement, etc. So I agree, I don't think they play in the 'best bang for the buck' arena anymore. Heck, I was all set to go with a Luna bike, but the CCS just came up with a winner in the value category, with my particular needs/wants in mind.

With Luna I think you will see them focus more and more on the higher power niche market. And you know, I really hope they do well there. I love to see guys like Eric at Luna and Tora at Juiced push the envelope of things. We need more innovators/marketers like them in this day and age. I want to see them all succeed in their respective spheres.

Heck e-bikes might not just be a fun niche hobby. It might seriously, legitimately be something we need to help ease up on our environment a little bit. That's why I bought one. Each time I commute on my CCS I honestly feel I'm helping just a tiny, tiny, bit...and I like that.

 

[Asher]

With Luna I think you will see them focus more and more on the higher power niche market. And you know, I really hope they do well there. I love to see guys like Eric at Luna and Tora at Juiced push the envelope of things. We need more innovators/marketers like them in this day and age. I want to see them all succeed in their respective spheres.

Heck e-bikes might not just be a fun niche hobby. It might seriously, legitimately be something we need to help ease up on our environment a little bit. That's why I bought one. Each time I commute on my CCS I honestly feel I'm helping just a tiny, tiny, bit...and I like that.

Ebiking is going big, this year, because bikeshares are getting electrified. A $2k bike when you already have a car is hard to justify when you're not sure it can replace lots of your car trips. Santa Monica (scooters), DC, Seattle, San Diego, SF (limited) all have it now.

As for Luna, I don't see how they can grow much without either becoming more customer friendly, or price competitive as a supplier to ebike brands. The DIY market is not that big, and is not going to grow anything like the mainstream market, the same way car gearheads are a small part of the car market. Either way they've got to broaden their appeal if they want to go beyond the niche. It would be great if they did, to make other brands compete, which won't really happen if they're just for gearheads.

I live right next to them and it's not readily apparent how or if I can test their bikes, unlike say Juiced if I were in SD, and Juiced is also direct to consumer.

 

[Lenny7118]

Mine is several years old now and an incredible piece of kit. So much better than the $90 "not so smart" chargers. Much better warranty too!

Hi, Does it matter which Cycle Satiator charger to get ? The 48V or 52v 3 or 4 pin? I have a CCS with the stock battery
Thanks

 

[Lenny7118]

It is hard to define it exactly. Everything is moving along the curve on the graph. At some point of charging we have to consider it "1 cycle" but basically the current thinking is that charging it from 20% to 80% gives the best life span vs. useable capacity.

Partial charging is not as harmful as full charging. Deep discharging and full charging decreases cycle life. High discharge and high charge rate also decrease charge cycles.

In a nutshell, use the middle part of the pack unless you need extra capacity, in which case charge it all they way up. Use the Cycle Satiator to charge to 80% (or wherever) then use the Low Voltage Limit on the LCD display to control the depth of the discharge.

Hi, Does it matter which Cycle Satiator charger to get ? The 48V or 52v 3 or 4 pin? I have a CCS with the stock battery
Thanks

 

[tomjasz]

Hi, Does it matter which Cycle Satiator charger to get ? The 48V or 52v 3 or 4 pin? I have a CCS with the stock battery
Thanks

Sorry, I don't know what CCS is? I assume Juiced will respond with their thoughts. The 72V is pretty future proof, for someone expecting to move to 60V or 72V batteries and will still charge 36, 48, and 52V packs. I have no intention of moving to that much power and am quite happy with 25MPH conversions (kits) and still run 36, 48, and 52V bikes.
There is a listed connector for Juiced bikes. Copied section attached.

 

[Asher]

CCS is Crosscurrent s

 

[Dunbar]

Hi, Does it matter which Cycle Satiator charger to get ? The 48V or 52v 3 or 4 pin? I have a CCS with the stock battery
Thanks

You can get the 48V or 72V Satiator. The 48V works better with 36V systems and can also charge faster (some people charge multiple bikes). I personally went with the 72V Satiator because it can charge all the way up to 96V systems meaning it’s more future proof.

 

[Lenny7118]

You can get the 48V or 72V Satiator. The 48V works better with 36V systems and can also charge faster (some people charge multiple bikes). I personally went with the 72V Satiator because it can charge all the way up to 96V systems meaning it’s more future proof.

I got the 72v also just in case i am able to buy a larger battery for my CrossCurrent S. I bought the charger directly from Grinn tech in Canada. I’m in New Jersey and got it within 2 days. Of course the shipping fees were high but amazon doesn’t carry this model. Now waiting for the weather to start to cooperate.

 

[Asher]

View attachment 19380

This says 80% for 48v is 51.5, but Ebikes.ca has a graphic that says 4.05v per cell or 52.65v is 80%. Which is right?

Also regarding 80% vs 100% chargers, you already give consumers a choice over which battery, I don't think it would be much extra cost to have the charger selectable instead. It's not like you're taking a part off the bike and putting another one on. Or you could charge a $5-10 extra for the swapping effort.

 

[tomjasz]

Good catch, the chart was from Luna. I’ve always used 4.05 with my Satiators. I think the two sources are using different cutoff values.

 

[Asher]

Good catch, the chart was from Luna. I’ve always used 4.05 with my Satiators. I think the two sources are using different cutoff values.

So just confirming, is that what the Satiator says is 80% (52.65v)?

 

[Dunbar]

So just confirming, is that what the Satiator says is 80% (52.65v)?

The Satiator has a few default profiles. One of those default profiles is 85% which charges to 52.6V. The great thing about the Satiator is that you can add a bunch of custom profiles. I mainly charge to 51.0 or 52.0V unless I know that I need the extra range. I’ve got a 1A/2A charge profile setup for each of those voltages. It’s nice to have the option to fast charge when you’re in a hurry too (my 72V Satiator goes up to 250W.)

 

[Asher]

with the right BMS, batteries don't require full charging to rebalance:

"Good quality programmable BMS circuits will usually attempt to balance the cells whenever they see more than a certain voltage spread between the highest and lowest cell in the group, and in that case there is no problem with partial charges. Similarly, good quality cells rarely drift out of balance in a series string, and can easily handle 100 or more cycles and maintain a perfect voltage matching even if the BMS circuit doesn’t do any active balancing. But if you aren’t sure of the makeup of your battery pack, then the protocol of occasionally giving a 100% top-up is a good bet to ensure both a long cycle life and evenly matched cell voltages."

http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/charge-simulator.html

I created a table for myself that indicates how long to charge, based on voltage readings from the display. Each pin is 15 minutes, based on the outlet timer I use, which lets electricity flow for the 15 minute increments selected.

I charge to 70% for day to day use, unless I know I'll be traveling more than say, 15 miles, then it's 80%. The ebike display undercounts voltage by 0.4 at higher voltages, 0.2 at lower voltages it seems.

This is for the 19.2 ah battery. Based on a couple readings, charging increases voltage at about 1.2 volts per hour.